March 2021 Well we took you to Stately Homes thread

[Sicario]

It's now March 2021, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Picking up from previous thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4030633-September-2020-Well-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-thread?pg=40

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
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March 2011
November 2011
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May-August 2019
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November-December 2019

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

I did some interesting work with NHS psychology following a bout of illness and she said that to feel shame you had to have been shamed. I could pinpoint it exactly I was 5 and peeing on my bedroom carpet scared to go to the toilet not that she knew but paternal gf was sexually abusing me. She was a primary teacher ahh the irony. She had me by the hair raging I was an animal and not fit to do anything but mix with animals. I had embarrassed her what would the cleaning lady think. It's vile and makes me feel ill remembering it. I try and think ah parenting in the 70s but come on I was showing disturbed behaviour. She never physically abused my 2 big sisters just me the youngest by 4 and 5 years. I am still terrified of her rages she is so volatile. My dad defends her like a jack in th box and is completely self absorbed but without the calculated nastiness. She is 80 and sharp as a tack I dread dad dying and her demands increasing I want no part of it. I feel awful writing this but I will be very relieved when they have both died. I feel awful writing this. I can't express my thanks enough for this thread I read it every day and it really resonates with me. Thank you esp to attila who has supported me for years without knowing it thank you ladies xxxx

@Coconut80 your mum is horrendous and I hope it helps you put it here in black and white. No one here disbelieves you. What she did to you as a child was physical and emotional abuse. You are right to keep away. If something does happen to your dad, don't take on the care. I'm caring for The Hag (toxic mother in law) at the moment and it's vile. They use you as a servant, use the proximity as an opportunity for further abuse and there’s no thanks. As soon as The Hag gets infirm, she's going in a home. Those places must be stuffed to the gills with vile old people.

Don't doubt your memories and don't buy the sweet old lady shit because they won't change and something vile is around the corner.

I'm sitting in The Hag’s flat waiting for the delivery of her new cooker. It's like a slum with ripped sofas. It's very clean but why have ripped furniture? Martyrdom. The spare room is stuffed to the gills with presents we’ve bought her to make the slum look nice. The best are the lovely towels we bought her - unused. She uses a ripped towel dating to the 1960s that resembles a rag. I wouldn't use it on my dog.

No idea what this behaviour is about. Any ideas?

Coconut
You don't have to wait until they die, you can cut them off completely now, you can 'divorce' them, you can cut them loose you can bar them from your life.
I feel the same about my parents..... I will be celebrate when the Gorgon and the Gaslighter no longer stalk the earth.
I can relate to your experience as a child I was abused by a family member when I was very young, preschool age, parents response was turn a blind eye, pretend it didn't happen, I now realise they didn't want it to get out because it would make them look bad they cared nothing for the effect it had on me.
My parents colluded to cover up for a paedophile who abused their own daughter, they cared more about protecting the reputation of a paedophile than they cared about their own daughter. I was attacked and humiliated for speaking out.
I despise them.
Don't feel awful Coconut you are completely justified!

Coconut I'm so sorry that you were the victim of a paedophile, this abuse is very damaging, your mother was and is horrific, demonic. You deserve to heal and recover and be free of these people💛

Monkey I feel like with the ripped furniture she is trying to send a martyrdom message, similarly with the unused and unopened presents, I think the message is she disregards anything and everything you give her... Everything is a forum for her to express her contempt.

They also really constantly use my name, every sentence, which I have repeatedly asked them not to do because at that frequency it is just bizarre and comes across as them talking down to me and telling me off. My dad also tells me I have no right to ask people not to come into my room, go through my stuff or take my stuff
Cecile, I agree the constant use of your name comes across as condescending and domineering, not even allowing you the privacy of your own room is humiliating, I don't think that's acceptable ☹️

@Coconut80

Totally get the extension of them she gets irate if I say I no longer like nicola sturgeon and goes on the offensive. She will deliberately pronounce words wrong so we comment then she goes Irate like preeemier Inn rather than Premier Inn. She was always pointing out spelling werrors in menus to waitresses mortifying. After the last call I do struggle with my mental health and am prone to depression so have decided I will never expose myself to having them for Christmas again, I will never suggest a meet up as it is always an ordeal with weeks of fallout for me sisters feel the same. My duty phonecall I've reduced to fortnightly and my dh will do alternate calls. I can't think much else I can do

Oh yes mine does this. She hit the roof when DB and I announced we were both voting Labour in the last election. Proper raging angry, she just couldn’t accept we had a different political viewpoint to her (yes, she’s a Tory). The irony of that is her parents were staunch Labour people because they both came from industrial backgrounds. So it was ok for her to vote differently to them but not us to vote differently to her?

Makes no sense does it?

@MonkeyfromManchester could the unused presents be more projection? I don't know enough about her to say whether this is the case but my parents use gifts ("gifts" because they steal them back if I'm not doing exactly what they say) to control and take credit for things. If that's the way they think about things, they probably assume everyone thinks like that.

@AttilaTheMeerkat the police didn't take any further action because my grandmother lied for her to the police, so it was me & my partner vs my mum & her mum. And then my medical records disappeared my physiotherapist said it was really weird, he could only find one line written in the notes which he said was very suspicious. So the police dropped it. My partner and I were stunned. I've wondered since if part of the reason she hasn't apologised is because it would also be an admission of guilt, but really I know it's because she doesn't think it's her fault. So far through the grape vine I've heard that she's referred to it as "I had to teach her a lesson" and "we had an argument which lead to a scuffle" except, I didn't fight back, ironically, I was scared of hurting her if I did!

There are some absolutely appalling stories here. How that person could make that comment about this thread last night is beyond me? It’s obvious there’s a lot of pain here and this is a safe space for us all. Sexual abuse? Just awful. And ignoring it?

@CeciledeVolanges god only knows. I think it’s control but also the martyrdom that @Ulteregome referenced. She does use every forum to get at me. She does exactly the same with gifts my sister in law sends her. I think she and I are hated because we took her sons away. Shame that I couldn’t find the Prada perfume that SIL sent as that would be a nice gift for myself for putting up with this nightmare. Lol.

She stopped my disabled brother in law from joining the navy (predisability), has driven away any relationships he had and kicked off when he suggested he went on a solo cruise so he didn’t. He’s not had a holiday in 20 years (since she retired)

My absolute favourite is trying to muscle in on the curry MM and BIL go on every new year. I don’t go,it’s their space. BIL actually suggests they keep it a secret. The last one she found out about and wanted to go 1) she hates curry “we could go somewhere I like the food” 2) “you’ll talk about me” (I doubt that very much) anf 3) it’s their time 4) she moans when we take her out for a birthday meal.

She’s just moaning about the sandwich I have made her.

I CANNOT WAIT UNTIL SHE GOES.

Can someone give me some ground rules for dealing with my mother? She is, I suspect, something of a narcissist. I find myself drawing boundaries again and again and she steps over them but always in the guise of “helping.”
I get very anxious when standing up to her. I really don’t know why. Maybe it’s because I feel she has let me down in the past.
All advice gratefully received.

@Tankflybosswalkjam in my experience drawing boundaries just doesn't work. I am trying to find out where I am going wrong, if I go wrong, but I can try as much as I want and no boundaries are respected. If they can't find a justification they just invade them anyway.

Tankfly

Narcissistic people do not like or respect boundaries and your mother will actively rail against any you care to set her. Also setting boundaries is difficult for you mainly because she encouraged you never to have any, seeing you instead as an extension of her.

Drop the rope she holds out to you and further lower all contact levels to zero sum. It is not possible to have a relationship with someone this disordered of thinking.

OMG MonkeyfromManchester. My DM is exactly like this with regards to muscling in on everything we do! We go on holiday she wants to come, we go for meals she wants to come, we take up hobbies she wants to as well. When I announced I was going to be following a mostly plant based/vegan diet she said was going to do the same, then got most put out when I told her that she couldn’t eat eggs or drink milk in her tea because they are still animal products. I became involved with a charity and she suddenly decides she wants to be involved in as well, I took up walking during lockdown and she then copies that as well.

Last summer when restrictions were relaxed DB and DSIL invited me for a barbecue (only them and me) and she was most offended not be included. But that might because last time she went there she got hammered, started insulting people and fell over in their kitchen hurting herself and causing a right scene. They also invited me for a meal out in September and that didn’t go down well, but likewise it would have been another drunken scene.

She can’t let us do our own thing, she has no hobbies of her own and no interest in finding ones. Post Pandemic I’m planning a solo holiday, I can only imagine the fucking meltdown that will cause...

@monkeyfromManchester thank you for your supportive words all really good advice. The hag sounds absolutely vile I don't fall for the I'm a nice old lady either my mother is sharp and aggressive as she ever has been, no mellowing with age at all.
@ulteregome thank you for saying the same about your parents my friends would be horrified if they knew I felt this way but they haven't had the mind games and pain for a lifetime. It is beyond vile that your parents knew about your abuse but cared more about their imagine. Utterly disgusting. Did you tell them about the abuse, sorry don't answer if you don't want to. I never told mine I was abused till I was 12 and my earliest memory is about 5 having a sore botty. Utterly vile. I did have a medication withdrawal manic episode 3 years ago and I emailed my sister to ask why she didn't protect me from being systematically raped throughout my childhood when I knew that she 5 years older had been abused too. The email was written of as me being ill and never mentioned again.

@cactus1982 yes I identify with the control its madness I want my kids to have their own interests and likes.

What really unsettles me just now is that my mother is facetiming my 16yr old dd. I have her blocked on everything except email. Strangely her emails are often sickly sweet and vile with emoji hearts, as different from who she is as possible. Probably alcohol induced. I feel she pumps my daughter for info.
When I was in hospital my dh said be really careful what you say as coconut is very unwell. She said well you don't sound very ill and why don't you use some of that energy to clean your house. I was manic agitated and suicidal she later asked if I was a bit sad. Utterly inadequate. The psychologist treating me post this episode said that it was because of my mother I had low self esteem so found it hard to recover from it, no shit sherlock.

Thank you again for this lovely unconditionally kind space to vent xx

Sorry I was abused till I was 12 and realised it was wrong but I never told my parents and had to tolerate Christmases etc with the pervert x

Hello!

Can I join you? I have read these boards as a source of support and it makes me so sad that so many people have had similar experiences. Why do these people have kids?!! My mother had four children and thinks she is God's gift to motherhood, and simply looks down on anyone who had fewer kids.

I riled her last year when we tried for a third and it was twins. So I also have four, but my eldest had just turned 5. She absolutely hated that as my siblings are spread over 9 years, so she acted like I had deliberately tried to get one up on her. Having twins just before lockdown 1 was utterly crap, and she didn't help at all. Lots of comments about how I was letting down my 5 year old when I said how hard home schooling was etc etc.

I went back to work 80% in the summer (am in a professional job that requires years of training and I am almost finished so didn't want to go back less than that as it would drag out). I have had nothing but constant criticism and digs. I got the vaccine through work and she told me how lucky I was because she had to wait for hers, despite the fact that I am public facing and exposed multiple times a day, and she is at home getting Waitrose deliveries and making judgy comments about everyone.

I hinted yesterday how hard I was finding everything (work, home schooling, not able to do anything with the kids at wkends etc, you all know the drill!) and she just said that she had done it and I shouldn't have had four kids if I wasn't a natural mother.

I know she is toxic but I still haven't learnt how to let her comments wash over me. I have felt so low and deflated all weekend (and have been on my own with the kids as my husband is working).

My brother is similar to her and absolutely awful so we barely speak, I have one sister who is starting to see her for who she is, and the other one who has been terribly abused but can be so easily manipulated by her that she blows and cold. She is semi-dependent on my mum for money (which my mum absolutely loves) which is a really challenging dynamic.

I don't know what I am hoping to achieve by writing this but I just wanted a hand hold tonight. I am dog tired and fed up with being told I am useless and rubbish. Sorry for the moan - I promise I am not usually so self indulgent! Thanks for listening

Did you tell them about the abuse
yes as a child they ignored me, didnt respond to what I said and never mentioned it again:( and yes the person was present in family events etc.
Coconut80 put a steel fortress up to keep you and yours safe from this horrific woman, yes she will be trying to extract info from your daughter, anything which will give her control
dont think of her as a mother, she was a mere entry point onto the planet, get as far away from her as you can...and then some is my advice.
You owe her nothing she is despicable, you've done nothing wrong, you deserve to heal and move forward with your life, live it for yourself now.

I just wanted a hand hold tonight
Hi Apple🖐 we hear you, what a dreadful woman, she cant be happy for you, instead she has to compete with you over everything and desperately tries to put you down.
You are useful, clever, resourceful and a good loving caring mother😊

Hi all, Long time poster, chronic name changer here.

It’s been a bumpy couple of years with my subtly narc self-absorbed DM where we are pretty much NC. I say pretty much as LC seems to happen on birthdays and Christmas which makes me wince. On my DC’s birthday last year I found it very uncomfortable that we had to do a Skype call to show them opening presents from her. She ignored me and DH and just spoke to the kids. Same at Xmas. It’s horrible, weird, stressful and sad. Actually, we don’t even get a card from her at xmas, and she asked us a couple of years ago to stop sending gifts to them, though at that point we were LC so it was easier to be in touch over such a thing.

Mother’s Day this year falls on my birthday and it’s making me feel funny.

Since becoming a mother myself, she never once acknowledged me on Mother’s Day which always hurt but was not a surprise.

On my birthday I might get a text (or not, sometimes a few days later) plus an Amazon voucher. I don’t need the money and the voucher feels totally pointless and thoughtless.

I live abroad and Mother’s Day is a different date here but I do usually send her a mother’s day card, but since last Mother’s Day we had a horrid text exchange and things have gone from LC to this weird thing around contact at Xmas and bdays only.

I feel obliged to send one this year too. She’s hurt me so much over the years but I feel like it’s playing tit for tat or sending a strong message if I don’t send one. But the irony of it being on my birthday.... I will have zero time to get a card this week, so thought of moonpig, but that feels so lame.

I don’t want her Amazon voucher, and “Strong Me” had thought of telling her (gently) not to send one, but again, it gives a bold message and somehow more loaded as it’s Mother’s Day as well

I suspect I’ll do the moonpig and leave it at that. I do care about her, and I don’t want to hurt her by ignoring her on Mother’s Day.

Thankfully, DH I have a fun day planned so I will hopefully be distracted on the day. But I’ll be glad when it’s over.

Anyway, I should know better than to get my knickers in a twist and still be under the FOG but I seem to have anyway!

Hi Name

Its really not possible to have any sort of a relationship with a narcissist. Except for odd spells of heady euphoria unrelated to anything you can see, their affective range is mediocre-fake-normal to hell-on-Earth. They will sometimes lie low and be quiet, actually passive and dependent - this is as good as it gets with narcissists.

Would suggest you do not and no longer send her anything, she is not deserving. Silence is itself powerful and sends its own message. She has not ever sent you a card for Mothers Day and you need also to stop seeking her approval by continuing to send her a birthday card etc. She will never give this to you. You further state that you do not want to hurt her but she has never given you that consideration has she?. Would you have tolerated a friend behaving towards you like your mother has done, likely not. Your mother is no different.

Re your comment:-
I feel obliged to send one this year too. She’s hurt me so much over the years but I feel like it’s playing tit for tat or sending a strong message if I don’t send one".

Your feeling obligated here is the main issue. Its not tit for tat and you're likely only wanting to send her a card anyway mainly because of feeling obliged. Where has that feeling come from?. She's basically trained you into serving her and putting your own needs and wants last. The only people also who tend to bother with narcissists are the ones who have received the special training i.e the now adult children of same.

I would also keep your children well away from her now and certainly no longer subjecting them to her emotional manipulations via skype. That's a bloody show for her own sole benefit i.e using your children to get back at you people as their parents. What sort of message does that send them by seeing granny ignoring you people as their parents whilst talking at your kids?. She is a serial abuser; narcissistic parents more often than not become narcissistic grandparent figures as well and she has not changed. Watching a narcissist interact with their grandchild is painful mainly because there is no interaction; its like watching a re run of a tv show you've always hated.

BTW you do not mention your dad here; is he still in your life at all?.

You do not have to tell her that you do not want cards etc; doing that also opens up a further line of communication with her that you do not want. My suggestion here would be to not acknowledge any of these items and dispose of it all. Gifts too should come with ribbons, not strings, and all the stuff she sends is full of obligation.

Would also suggest you find a therapist who you can work with and deal with your FOG before it further eats away at you. Do have a look at the websites entitled "Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers" and "Out of the Fog".

You have physical distance, now put further mental distance between you and she. There's only one way to get decent treatment from narcissists: keep your distance. Further lower all communication levels now to ultimately zero sum.

Narcissists are very disappointing as gift-givers. This is not a trivial consideration in personal relationships. I've seen narcissistic people sweetly solicit someone's preferences ("Go ahead -- tell me what you really want"), make a show of paying attention to the answer ("Don't you think I'm nice?") and then deliver something other than what was asked for. Narcissists will go out of their way to stir up other people's expectations and then go out of their way to disappoint those expectations.

First, narcissists lack empathy, so they don't know what you want or like and, evidently, they don't care either; second, they think their opinions are better and more important than anyone else's, so they'll give you what they think you ought to want, regardless of what you may have said when asked what you wanted for your birthday; third, they're stingy and will give as gifts stuff that's just lying around their house.

@Name128535689953 I don’t imagine the guilt goes away quickly especially as they’ve had years of guilt tripping you. You are doing exactly the right thing by stepping away. Keep thinking of yourself, your family and the live you’ve made.

Lots of charities have lists on Amazon where they want things bought for service users. I know a lot of charities supporting abused women have Amazon lists for underwear, toiletries etc. You might get a great deal of satisfaction of giving to a charity like that. Every year you can get a good feeling of doing good from something out of a toxic relationship where presents are used to further abuse. Never tell her you do that, not to save her feelings but they will change tactics to further hurt. Put you first.

@ultegome that is just vile that you told your parents and it wasn't believed what utter bastards and then to tolerate family gatherings with that person just brutal I'm sorry that happened to you.

I am 4 hrs away from my parents and luckily they can no longer drive the journey. I am going to work on making that steel fence like you suggested. She is pumping my daughter for info as I give her none and she can gleefully rub my face in it.

@appletart99 your mum sounds vile and totally lacking empathy. I get the pain it causes your mum who is meant to love you unconditionally is cruel and it hurts to the core. Comments my mother has made to me over the years have been so vicious they take your breath away. My mum is full of bile I think yours is too. I'd tell her nothing and have the bare minimum interaction with her and expect nothing from her

Send a bland horrible cheap card with no cheesy messages on it. That's what me and my sisters have done for years. Mothers day really unsettles me but it passes and she can go back into her cave xx