March 2021 Well we took you to Stately Homes thread

[Sicario]

It's now March 2021, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Picking up from previous thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4030633-September-2020-Well-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-thread?pg=40

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
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August 2008
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March 2011
November 2011
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November-December 2019

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

I feel I need some sane and practical advice from those of you with more experience in this whole toxic family situation.
Rather than giving you the backstory again I will just say (so that I don't sound like a totally heartless and selfish person) that I have genuine reasons for not being more supportive to my mother, not least my childhood trauma, her refusal to admit any issues or even meet me halfway, her constant negativity and criticism of me, using me as an emotional and financial crutch, scapegoating me for her issues and, well...the list goes on. BUT she is a very vulnerable woman - or at least that's the impression she wants me to have. She is not elderly but quite likely with serious depression, anxiety and PTSD that she refuses to seek help for but which I think has been the case for my whole life.
She has pushed everyone away and is extremely socially isolated, won't engage in any activities or meet people, dislikes everyone, says "my daughters are my friends" for our whole life. Has no family as they have all distanced themselves from her long ago.
I am in the position of being the only sole person she has in the country. I live a few hours drive away. My sister doesn't speak to me, refuses to do anything except blame me for not dropping my job, my life and my family to care for our mother.
I recently had her visit for a couple of days. I dreaded it. I was highly anxious when she was here. I have achieved so much in the last few months but the only comment she made was about my weight. She acts like she despises me. However, she also hints about wanting to live with us "now that we have space". She is desperately lonely, and I do feel awful about that. She is not elderly, nor is she sick, but she's highly anxious, very defensive and constantly complains of being at deaths door to try and make me feel sorry for her. In fact, her whole existence seems to be to make me feel sorry for her.
Anyway I cannot, cannot have her come to live with us. But as the only person alive who is a contact for her, am I somehow obligated? Like if she does have a fall or an accident will I be expected to take her in? She has no money, and doesn't own a home. I know this sounds melodramatic, but my own health suffers when she is around, I feel myself sliding downhill, I am exhausted, angry, I even get physically ill. If she moved in with us it would destroy my happiness and likely my marriage.
I don't want her to suffer, I want her to get treated for her mental health and start to live a happy and normal life, but that won't happen. She will not accept she needs help from anyone other than me, playing this helpless grandma/cruel selfish daughter act to anyone who will listen.
Who could I go to that would give me practical advice here? Like how can I manage her, keep her at a distance but do my duty with regards to her "care" (even though she's only in her early 60s) but no have her potentially ruin my life for the next 20/30 years?
Thanks so much to anyone listening/reading!

@openwaterswimming I am by no means an expert and someone more expert will come along soon, but a couple of things really stood out to me there.
The first was that, cruel as it sounds, if her mental health conditions weren't doing something for her, she would be trying to get help however she could - I know because I have at least the same conditions as she does (with more on top) and would do anything to get better. She has created a situation where you have to be at her beck and call, feel responsible for her, take steps to alleviate her suffering - she's got you meeting her needs so she doesn't need to work out how to meet them herself or find alternative sources.
The second thing was your use of the word "duty" which is really striking. She's not elderly, as you say, or disabled. If anyone has a duty, it's her, and that duty is to seek help and get support so she can be a mother to her child instead of you having to fill that role for her. She wants you to feel that way but it's an illusion. She has manipulated and gaslighted those feelings into you. You are 100% correct when you say her entire life is about making you feel sorry for her.
As I said, I'm no expert, but I would treat her like a parent would treat a child who was extremely destructive and refused to seek help - make getting help and community support a condition of remaining in contact with you. If she sees a GP, if she socialises with people other that you, if she gets therapy, whatever you want, but while you are fulfilling all those roles she doesn't need to change. She is your mother, not your responsibility.
Sorry, this sounds super harsh when I read it back but that is what I would say. Don't let yourself get trapped.

I would treat her like a parent would treat a child who was extremely destructive and refused to seek help - make getting help and community support a condition of remaining in contact with you. If she sees a GP, if she socialises with people other that you, if she gets therapy, whatever you want, but while you are fulfilling all those roles she doesn't need to change. She is your mother, not your responsibility
I dont think that sounds harsh, I think it sounds very measured and constructive
openwaterswimming if I was transplanted into your situation I think I would start focusing on MY illnesses and making them the reason I cant have contact with people. Shut down all channels except for text or e-mail, no phone conversations ever. I would present myself as 'ms useless flaky fu(k up' and make like a herd of cats, be jelly and let her try pin you to the wall. Just stop complying, be an unco-operative teenager, I find that pretty easy to channel tbh.

In fact, her whole existence seems to be to make me feel sorry for her
as Cecile says, the awful truth is there is no 'seems', she's turned herself into a human jelly fish and her entire raison detre is to fall on you.
This is NOT fair NOT right,
Just run for the fu(king hills girl like you would if there was an actual 2human jelly fish descending from the sky onto you.
She has deliberately trapped you, everyone else has legged it, they've done a number on you. It's too late to save your mother, save yourself, dont bleddy drown with her!!!

Hello. I've been advised to come here because my mother is a narcissist. We currently see her weekly, but she's very opinionated and controlling with regard to how I parent my 3 yo DS. There's been a bit of a row over what she wants to get him for his birthday and a couple of posters on AIBU have suggested that it could potentially be damaging to DS to have her undermining me (and making me out to be the bad guy by telling him she'd like to give him x/y/z but Mummy says no etc.)

I'm not sure what to do for best. I wonder if I'm overreacting but the AIBU posters generally seem to think that I'd be justified in reducing contact. My sister went LC with her a few years back and I do think I need to step back a bit and not tell her so much, but she does gaslight me a lot so it's hard to remain convinced of the necessity of stepping back- there's been a lot of guilt and, 'I hope your son never makes you feel the way you've made me feel right now,' whenever I've done so in the past.

So... I guess I'm here because I recognise that there's a problem and that our dynamic isn't healthy but I need support to enforce boundaries.

We're running out of thread everybody.... so over here to a new one so we can all keep talking and supporting each other...

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4265761-June-2021-Well-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes?watched=1

I do think I need to step back a bit and not tell her so much
In her mind she is head of the family, you and your children are her underlings, anything you tell her is used to control and manipulate you so that she can maintain her 'rightful' position as top dog.
Ignore the guilt tripping and treat her like a mushroom (keep her in the dark and feed her BS)
Step back, stop being obedient!

@CeciledeVolanges hello! It’s good to hear from you. Never forget how well you’re doing. You’re on a journey. And one that will give you and peace and well-being. X

@Iamaperiwinkle try looking up trainee therapists. I met a friend the other day who pays the same for an entire session of therapy as I pay for 75 seconds with my therapist (I am now looking up trainee therapists...) but it sounds pretty affordable.

THE JOY. I have to work on Saturday - doing social media at an arts festival so good fun - so I DON’T HAVE TO TAKE THE HAG TO THE HAIRDRESSER. Mr Monkey is doing it. This means I’ve not seen her since the 22 April. Of course, there was “who’s taking me?” selfish panic.
But as Bob Dylan sang “it ain’t me, babe”.

@MonkeyfromManchester thank you so much!

Hi everyone
I'm really not sure where to begin with this - I have a really really tough relationship with my mum.
Its always been difficult since she married my step dad when I was 8 she always prioritsed him and work - I left home at 15
As an adult she has become awful and cruel she will use money which she will gift me then send a list of demands that she then expects in return. (I have stopped accepting the money and tend to just transfer it back) but nothing I do is ever right or good enough.
My step dad does a couple of years ago and I hoped things would get better but 12 months later she met someone else who is just awful he has 8 children and she now has sold her house and lives most of the year abroad.
My life is really stable and I am in a happy relationship I have 3 beautiful children but when she's back home she wants to see my youngest but they are heavy smokers and I don't like him staying over night so offered to come down for the day and see her and this is the text I have just received...

"I am really pissed off.. child used to like the boat...it her child loved it ...but hay ho.. forget all that ... i didnt expect you to stay on boat as per usual i would have put you in b&b . Apart from the people on the marina there is no reason to be back in uk. I am really pissed off.. you couldnt even be bothered to put child one on the phone. I will ring you when we get back home but it will be new spanish no. Ps if you want to come to wedding its the 29th oct."

I didn't even know she was getting married I also work in a school so couldn't go anyway - I replied saying now isn't a great time (I was diagnosed with cancer a couple of years ago and am currently being investigated for secondary cancer she replied saying
"Shall I book flights or let me guess you can't make it"

Sorry this is long and rambling I don't even know why I'm writing it and it's so long x

@carryme there's a new thread as this one's full - people may have missed this post.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4265761-June-2021-Well-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes?watched=1

Hi all
I hope you don’t mind me jumping into this group.
I have a narcissistic mother from whom I’ve been estranged for coming up to two years. The estrangement began when she tried to talk my husband out of marrying me a week before our wedding. My sister got on board with this too. Since this time my mother, brother and sister have all launched a campaign against my husband saying that he is ‘coercive and controlling.’ They say that ‘at least two people’ came forward at our wedding to raise concerns that I’m being abused and that these people would like to ‘remain anonymous.’ Despite these claims none of my family have phoned me or come to see me since our wedding. Honestly, the whole thing has been as bizarre as it has been horrific. I lost a whole family the day I got married.
Thing is I’m now pregnant and not sure whether to tell mother. I can see the pitfalls of telling her but thing not telling her will give her a lot of ammunition. She texts me roughly every three to four months, mainly to sling a load of mud. She has refused mediation.
Basically, wondered if anyone has any advice on pregnancy and narcissistic mothers and whether to tell her etc
Sorry again for jumping in on post xx

@Annabel19

Christ no don't tell her! Stop engaging with any of the crazy loons.

If you are satisfied that your relationship with DH is not abusive then that's that.

@annabel19 if you tell her but don't let her see the children she can't harass you about how you are keeping her away from her grandchildren and go round being a victim telling everyone about how you won't let her see the child. You may also get the issue of her posting gifts with notes to the kids inside. Endless drama. We will not inform my partner's family when we have children. There is a chance they will find out eventually due to a family trust fund that will be distributed when someone dies, but hopefully the solicitor involved can find a way for them not to find out and will keep the children a secret !

Hello everyone, I’ve thought of posting on this thread before but after another interaction that’s made me anxious to the point of feeling physically ill, now I’d like to get my thoughts down.

How normal is this. We’re moving house. 4 kids under 10. No removals available so moving ourselves with the help of a loaned vehicle and a few friends. We had already moved a lot of our stuff to the rental. Saturday was going to be a big day, moving most of the heavy stuff and furniture with some extra help.

Meanwhile, Friday in the daytime my mum calls to ask what she can do to help and offers to help me take kids swimming on Saturday morning and get them out of the house to help the movers. We agree she will come at 8.30 to allow plenty of time to get to lessons.

Dh gets a call Friday from his most reliable and strongest helper. He can only come and help on Friday evening. We make a last minute call to move on Friday evening so this guy can help us, moving our beds so we have to sleep at the new place (which is 10 mins away). Then on Saturday we plan to come back to do some more with the other two friends.

Cue an absolute scramble of trying to get kids and heavy stuff moved, enormously heavy fridge, washing machine etc and enough stuff to keep us going overnight. We of course forget a few things, needing a bit of to-ing and fro-ing. Kids get to bed at nearly 11, we after midnight.

I didn’t inform my mum of this changed plan, my thought was it didn’t affect her because the swimming plan hadn’t changed, thinking I’ll be going back to the old house early on Saturday morning anyway as I want to clean up before the movers get there, and as i said, she had agreed to come at 8.30. It was a very hectic night as well.

Saturday morning getting ready to go to old house with the kids and swimming stuff. I check my phone around 8.10 (i had left it upstairs charging, as had dh as we couldn’t find our chargers before going to bed.) A missed call from my mum had come in at 8.01 and also a message from my dad that she was at the house and was trying to get hold of me.

I called her right back, it was at 8.14 to be exact and she was curt on the phone and said she was on her way home. She said she was about halfway home, she lives a 35 minute drive away. I explained what had happened the night before, she grumpily said ‘I’ll come back then’ and pretty much hung up, although was in the car to be fair.

We make our way over to arrive at 8.30. She is obviously put out, saying she didn’t know what to think coming to find our house empty and both cars gone and neither I nor dh were answering our phones. Makes me feel terrible for not telling her. Says she’s had a bad night and something terrible has happened, although when pressed never said what it was, and later turns out to be nothing material, perhaps her own feelings.

I should point out that we have had a sad anniversary this weekend as my brother died 10 years ago. I understand it’s a sad time for her and all of us. This may have been the cause of her bad night.

Now, i did actually intend to be there as early as I could but in the end I could only manage 8.30. In hindsight, I should have told my mum about our change of plan. But we did agree to meet at 8.30! I’m sure because i was cutting it fine I would have texted when leaving to say we’re on our way.

Is it reasonable what she did? Arriving half an hour early, deciding after a few minutes to go home and being annoyed at me?

There is back story to this, it’s not the first time something like this has happened. We have a mostly good relationship and she loves the dcs and offers a lot of help. But she has a tendency to rage or resentment every so often, and i often seem to be the cause. Eg. a week after dc1 was born she came knocking on my door shouting at me because I hadn’t lived up to her expectations of being a grandparent. She can be a little paranoid and thinks people are out to get her. She also has a thinly veiled contempt for dh.

We did end up having a fairly nice time together after the initial upset. I should probably shake it off and not let it get to me but this kind of interaction i have with her i find really upsetting. I don’t know in what mood I’m going to find her in and sometimes she’s annoyed at me over things I can’t control. Feel like I’m always messing up and am generally very lacking in confidence.

Southmove- sorry I've only just seen this.

There is a new stately homes thread - June 2021 - come and post on there for some proper responses xx