March 2021 Well we took you to Stately Homes thread

[Sicario]

It's now March 2021, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Picking up from previous thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4030633-September-2020-Well-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-thread?pg=40

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
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November 2011
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November-December 2019

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@KevinBaconsMoustache

Yes christmas without any relatives ..fantastically refreshing! I bet there's a lot of people who won't go back to the sh*tshow that is family Christmas I didnt have to cook the dinner and spend £££ on food and watch their TV programmes (all in my own house).

I am struggling to find a therapist. But I really agree it's the next step.

@CeciledeVolanges sorry I cross posted
Don't know anything about your story but please seek help. It does sound like you are in danger of harm.

Coconut - hello from someone else with a fat obsessed mother... Who's made unhelpful comments about my DD and DS but she's not interfering! Nooooooo... And seems to think she's fully entitled to say what she wants because she believes her opinions are actually the truth. In fact, 44.5 years in and I've only just realised that I'm not a liar, I just have held some differing opinions! I have of course, always been too fat... I'm sure my life would've been so much better if I looked like Cindy Crawford but hey ho, and she's helpfully always told me the other areas I underachieve in, really useful feedback! I'm all up for going NC, in fact I have told her that. I do love her but a switch has been flicked and I just don't have the energy any more. It's sad how much our mother's approval is so important to us but it's their flaw in the criticising, not ours in being less than "perfect".
I've started to panic about how much of my life I have left (I'm completely healthy but still) and how much I've wasted worrying, believing her shit and distorted opinions and view on reality.
Thanks for this all of you. Ps Attila you are so helpful.

Sorry everyone, got a bit distressed there. I actually got through to the NDVA helpline finally (I tried a few times a year ago) and they were very helpful and validating, and gave me some good advice - basically, don't say anything, just make arrangements for moving out and saving some money for it. I'm going to speak to my therapist about it tomorrow, as well, I've written down some things to tell her about. Sorry everyone to be so emotionally incontinent. I'm massively up and down at the moment, not helped by failure to sleep and nightmares, I just couldn't stop crying earlier. Hope everyone else is OK and I will try to give back a bit more tomorrow because I've been so selfish today!

@CeciledeVolanges stay strong, you can do it. Be kind to yourself.

@PolloDePrimavera hurrah for you. This place is a place of sancturary, you will get a lot of support here.

Cecile, your latest update sounds positive, good luck with the therapist tomorrow. Don't apologise it's just dreadful and much harder to cope with anything if you're not sleeping properly

I've just been pointed in the direction of this thread, and I am so glad to have found it.

I’m years beyond the point of being sick of the relationship I have with my mother. A few years back I attended therapy due to her behaviour, and it was suggested that she likely has NPD. At that time she had cut me off and that lasted about a year. I then moved overseas, we communicated on my terms and our relationship was 'better' while I was away. I’ve been back for a few years now, now I have a DD with DH.

I’ll try to summarise my experience.

-Constant negative comments.
-She’s depressed and has fallen out with all family (over years and years, since I was small).
-She left when I was a child. Won’t go into details as too revealing, but this is one of my biggest memories which has affected me as an adult. Lived happily with my father since childhood. Mother put herself first most of my life. Now expects me to put her first.
-I can never do anything right. I should be her carer according to her. She has poor health now (IMO bought on herself through her lifestyle).
-She can’t keep friends for long. Always falls out with people and there’s usually a “new” friend she’s found who is the best thing ever, until she falls out with them. Their fault of course.
-She can’t manage money. Debts over the years. Ridiculously high emphasis on gifts and money. Uses gifts and £ as a tool. “I have bought your daughter so many nice things, I deserve XYZ” ...

I cut her out once, for about 6 months. I’d say I’m out of energy, but I’m far beyond that. She’s just kicked off again- this time I’ve ignored her latest rant.

Not sure what I’m asking here, the main reason I find it hard to go NC is that she makes me feel it’s my fault that we have this relationship. And it’s my responsibility, ingrained expectations of mother daughter relationships etc... I also miss the relationship that I’ve never had with her. There have been glimpses of a normal relationship, sometimes for months at a time she can be “ok” but it’s still not normal. I’m used to the small constant passive aggressive digs.

Any advice welcome. Thank you if you’ve read this essay, and for a place to write this down.

@OliveBlue

I've just been pointed in the direction of this thread, and I am so glad to have found it.

I’m years beyond the point of being sick of the relationship I have with my mother. A few years back I attended therapy due to her behaviour, and it was suggested that she likely has NPD. At that time she had cut me off and that lasted about a year. I then moved overseas, we communicated on my terms and our relationship was 'better' while I was away. I’ve been back for a few years now, now I have a DD with DH.

I’ll try to summarise my experience.

-Constant negative comments.
-She’s depressed and has fallen out with all family (over years and years, since I was small).
-She left when I was a child. Won’t go into details as too revealing, but this is one of my biggest memories which has affected me as an adult. Lived happily with my father since childhood. Mother put herself first most of my life. Now expects me to put her first.
-I can never do anything right. I should be her carer according to her. She has poor health now (IMO bought on herself through her lifestyle).
-She can’t keep friends for long. Always falls out with people and there’s usually a “new” friend she’s found who is the best thing ever, until she falls out with them. Their fault of course.
-She can’t manage money. Debts over the years. Ridiculously high emphasis on gifts and money. Uses gifts and £ as a tool. “I have bought your daughter so many nice things, I deserve XYZ” ...

I cut her out once, for about 6 months. I’d say I’m out of energy, but I’m far beyond that. She’s just kicked off again- this time I’ve ignored her latest rant.

Not sure what I’m asking here, the main reason I find it hard to go NC is that she makes me feel it’s my fault that we have this relationship. And it’s my responsibility, ingrained expectations of mother daughter relationships etc... I also miss the relationship that I’ve never had with her. There have been glimpses of a normal relationship, sometimes for months at a time she can be “ok” but it’s still not normal. I’m used to the small constant passive aggressive digs.

Any advice welcome. Thank you if you’ve read this essay, and for a place to write this down.

Thank you Monkey and your situation sounds so difficult. Olive - exactly the same except mine is loaded but tight as a gnat's chuff. Mine snd I are currently having a stand off, because I bought her a new phone (I know, a pathetic attempt to buy her approval) and apparently , when over with her setting it up (bubble), I didn't stop picking on her and she's terrified of me... Please, this is the woman who would wallop me on a fairly regular basis when I was younger, usually across the head. I know she'll be waiting for Mother's Day and me not doing anything will feed into her narrative of how evil I am, so I might just send a boring blank card with no sentiment. Not sure. Essentially, anything I do will be wrong! It's just for me to feel like I have some control.

@PolloDePrimavera

What you said about feeding into her narrative about how evil you are - that's exactly it!! Whatever I do, seems to feed her narrative that I am a neglectful daughter who doesn't care and is selfish (regularly tells me this), etc etc...

It is insane.

@OliveBlue sorry I have nothing helpful to add really but this sounds so familiar, from my life and the experiences of the other wise posters on this thread. You have to hang on so tightly to the knowledge that it is not your fault you have this relationship with your mother. Reading more about it helps me - every time someone who has never heard of me writes down in black and white an experience I have had and explains why it happens and the effect it tends to have it bolsters my sense of my own reality. Thinking of you.

OliveBlue

Its not you, its your mother. Look at that list of experiences you made; she is the common denominator here as to why she has no friends, is bad with money, using gifts (gifts should come also with ribbons, not strings) to control etc; that is all on her. The only people who tend to at all bother with such family members are those who have received the special training i.e. the now adult children of same.

It is not possible to have any sort of a relationship with a narcissist and you need to drop the rope entirely now. You do not owe your mother anything, let alone a relationship, here. She has not changed since your own childhood, she is still that same person who now wants you to be her carer!.

She is abusive and abusive people are depressed because they are angry, not because they are depressed. Again its not your fault she is like this and you did not make her that way.

The following excerpt may also help:-
"You've been trained to keep loving people who can't love you back, and adult children of narcissists will often tolerate or actively work to maintain connections with narcissistic individuals whom others, lacking the special training, find alienating and repellent from first contact, setting ourselves up to be hurt yet again in the same old way. Once narcissists know that you care for them, they'll suck you dry demand all your time, be more work than a newborn babe and they'll test your love by outrageous demands and power moves. In their world, love is a weakness. They can't or won't trust, so they will test your total devotion. If you won't submit to their tyranny, then you will be discarded as "no good," "a waste of time," "you don't really love me or you'd do whatever I ask," "I give up on you." (Note: In many instances, narcissists' demands are not only outrageous but also impossible to fulfill even if you want to please them. Plus if you actually want to do what they want you to do, that would be too much like sharing, so they won't want it anymore).

If you've had a narcissist for a parent, you are probably not afraid of dying and going to hell -- you have lived hell on Earth. Narcissists cannot be satisfied and do a tremendous amount of damage to their children and partners in their relentless demand for a perfect outer appearance to reflect the perfect inner image that obsesses them".

You do not owe your mother anything, let alone a relationship, here. She has not changed since your own childhood, she is still that same abusive person who now wants you to be her carer!.

You will also need to grieve for the relationship you should have had with your mother rather than the one you actually got. You also have two qualities that your mother entirely is lacking in; empathy (narcissists have NO empathy) and insight. I cannot emphasise enough such people's lack of empathy.

Protect your child also from your abuser mother and do not let your mother use her further as a way of further hurting you; if your DHs parents are nice and importantly emotionally healthy, then concentrate your efforts on them. What does he think of your mother?.

Is your dad still in your life now?. Women like your mother cannot do relationships so the men in their lives tend to be either as narcissistic as they are or are otherwise discarded.

This excerpt may well also give you some more insight into why your mother cuts you off:-
"Once they know you are emotionally attached to them, they expect to be able to use you like an appliance and shove you around like a piece of furniture. If you object, then they'll say that obviously you don't really love them or else you'd let them do whatever they want with you. If you should be so uppity as to express a mind and heart of your own, then they will cut you off -- just like that, sometimes trashing you and all your friends on the way out the door. The narcissist will treat you just like a broken toy or tool or an unruly body part: "If thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off" [Matt. 18:8]. This means you".

Missing the relationship that you never had with your parent is one of the things that keeps you prisoner, they may not explicitly know it but they sense what is going on and that's why they drop you a few crumbs to keep you hoping in vain

Ignore the narrative of the parent, it is constructed to favour their interests
Construct your own narrative which favours your interests and stick to it

Or don’t even bother constructing a narrative, just note the facts and hold on to them!

Noticed today that one of my parents has thrown away a piece of my bicycle that I was waiting to have mended (the breakage was that that part had fallen off). I’m definitely thinking that I will book it in for a service or something to get it out of the house for a while and in a safe place (suggested by the Woman’s Aid person yesterday). It’s mental. I’m not sure how I can get it out of the house though, without posting it out of the window.

NC's yet again but have been on previous threads.

I'm v v v LC with a DM and one of the things she hates is the contact between siblings/others that she cannot control.

I text a close relative over the festive period and DM contacted this person and demanded to have a screenshot of the texts between us.

Bonkers.

@appletart99 I hear you too.
My sibling has the same (undiagnosed) PD as the DM and they've both been particularly vile this year.

You have a hand hold from me and please, never apologise for venting or off-loading here. This board has offered sanctity and sanity when no one else would understand.

Has anyone found online a really good description of a functional family...i.e. what most people experience (as adults not children).
Been reflecting and I don't know many people with nice families. A lot of the school mums seem to have great family support although that's also often siblings. I don't genuinely know many people who get on well with their parents and I know a few with full on toxic parents. And plenty nowadays where parents are deceased.
I'd like to read what is functional (keeping in mind that no 2 families are alike).
I don't think I'm very 'normally myself and wondering if perhaps I've got this wrong.
The 'trying to make everyone happy' part really resonated. I have been doing that. I should have stopped a long time ago. I can't even be sure I'm not just perpetuating it. The reality in my situation is that I've been trying to get my parents love and attention by gift buying and putting on events etc (but then that makes me sound like a narc!) as they don't do that for me or for anyone got that matter. They don't even do it for themselves. They're miserably frugal.

curtains
I have friends who I think are lovely adults and good parents and usually it’s because they are kind. Kindness is something I rarely experienced as a child and if people are kind to adult me, I get tearful! Have just looked up the dictionary definition and it’s “friendly, generous and considerate”.

@Veronica12345 I'm exactly the same in terms of my reaction.

It's really hard as its making me question how kind I am. I used to be a lot kinder.

@AttilaTheMeerkat

Thank you. This all makes sense. My parents have been divorced since I was 10/11. Thank goodness. I knew even at that age that it was better for them to be apart. Dad is lovely, he's a caring soul and was walked all over by my mother. He has nothing to do with her now, but wouldn't be off boundaries for her, for instance if I cut her off - I'm sure she would contact him at some point. I've always been on edge about this and had to "brief" dad on what to say or not to say whenever we have stopped talking or I expect her to phone him.

He has always played a part in her manipulation. E.g. "you've always preferred your father" "you always check on him but not on me" "I'm sure you do XYZ for your father but never for me"... "well you always preferred him as a child anyway" (that's probably because he raised me, even when they were together I don't think she did a lot)... or telling me he has said certain things when he hasn't.

DH openly doesn't like her. Ex long term partners never liked her either but going back to ex's I didn't have the understanding of things that I do now... DH is a much less tolerant person than me and he doesn't really understand why I have her part of my life. He says I'm too nice. But he is supportive of me whatever I do, and he would do anything for me. Of course mother took a dislike to him... and his family - for no reason. She's never met any of DH's family and I'll never let her.

Spot on with relationships - she's been married / divorced multiple times.

My main issue is I still feel guilty, I don't know how to move past that. I guess I feel sorry for her too.

@CeciledeVolanges

Thank you. I'm just discovering a lot more to read about it all now and I think it's helping to confirm things for me.

I've tried LC on and off for years. NC at times, though only once my decision. It doesn't work. Life is easier without her.

@curtainsforyou2 I can DM you the one I used if you like? I found they got it but they mightn't be what you're after.

@KevinBaconsMoustache thanks yes please

The guilt is so hard to deal with, but dysfunctional family members are totally exhausting. Their presence is akin to the way a fireball sucks all the oxygen out of a room.

I think everyone on the Stately Homes tour knows only too well the guilt that is heaped upon those of us who choose to walk away. We'll never be forgiven, so there's not much point in worrying about it. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

It's great that we have this thread to share our experiences and give support. Big shout out welcome to new posters here.

It is great Sicario, and thank you all because your input does help.
Olive - yes! She likes to set me tests too, which I don't know about. For example that she wanted me to go for a walk with her last weekend, even though she hadn't told me. And bearing in mind I had suggested walks a few weeks ago but was turned down each time due to various medical complaints (probs caused by me... ). So after last weekend, she sulked and said she'd seen lots of people with families.