To feel hurt and betrayed by my DS?

[MsSweary]

I have been here a long time but I've never posted in AIBU and I'm not sure if that's even relevant but I have to say this to someone. My head is all muddled up and i probably should wait until I calm down but I can't.

I am so very angry and hurt by my eldest DS (he is 37) and I don't know if my feelings are justified and if they're not I think there must be something wrong with me. He is the oldest of my 3 DC's. Both my eldest DS's are from my first marriage. My DD is from my second marriage.

The back story is I divorced my ExH 10 years ago; the years leading up to the end were hideous and I was a mental and emotional wreck and thought I was mad; I was drinking too much to cope with things that didn't make sense and I was on antidepressants. ExH is what I think is called functional alcoholism so never really got drunk but couldn't be without alcohol daily; he'd had a gambling habit during university, he told me early on.
In our marriage He'd also had at least one 'emotional affair', and I once came home early in the day to find him alone with one of them who by that time he'd given a job in his service; not having sex but when i walked in he jumped back from her like a scared rabbit. She had also turned up at our house once in the evening claiming to have broken down and couldn't get back to London that evening so we put her up; a week later ExH decided to buy this woman an item of clothing exactly like the one of his that he'd leant her to sleep in because "she loved it so much" and some months I later found texts between them saying I love you.

After couples counselling during which he never accepted or acknowledged that his behaviour was unnaceptable, he left me for a woman he'd lived with whilst at Uni so it was the age old story; that affair was ongoing during the time we were supposed to be saving our marriage and i later found out he'd come to the appointments from being with her. . Eventually his clear hatred of me wasn't enough to tip me over the edge into throwing him out (because I thought the problem was mine). Either alone or together they decided to send me an anonymous letter informing me of the affair and then ExH blamed our then 15 year old DD for having sent it. i know she couldn't have and wouldn't and she was so upset that her DF had suggested it was her; the post mark of the letter placed ExH in the area he works in, too far away for DD to possibly have been in as she was at school.

She, by the way, had learned of his infidelity or put 2 and 2 together and had begged him to tell me but he wouldn't; when I found this out out her anger and spiteful comments to him and telling me I was a fool, began to make sense. I also found out that he had been stealing money from my bank account as part of the plan to screw me financially whilst I was at my most vulnerable but that particualr plan failed. I should've learned what was to come earlier when he once cleared my bank account right up to the overdraft. I know I was stupid not to end it there and then but I'd not long had our DD and had just moved into the first house we'd bought. I so very nearly did though, and I never really felt the same about him after that.

A week after he left and whilst I was still in shock he introduced my eldest DS to the new partner. My younger DS would not have anything to do with ExH.

I'm sorry for telling in such detail (and I've left loads out as you get the picture). So ExH has split with the woman and moved permanently back to the area. He has been seriously ill, very seriously. I have stayed away all this time and I'm in a much better place after lots of therapy and I haven't had alcohol at all for about 8 years and no inclination to drink at all.

But ExH is slowly inching back in to my DS's lives and the 'weak link' has always been eldest DS whose relationship with his birth dad has never been great but it's not awful either. It's been a source of tension for us as ExH is very manipulative and only ever sees people as a resource to help him get what he wants. Younger DS saw him and spoke to him for the first time in 10 years a couple of weeks ago. ExH mentioned that he hadn't met DS's young son (my DGS). It was a clear bid to get that introduction I think. DS didn't respond but I don't think ExH will give up.

I found out this morning that yesterday ExH leant my eldest DS his car to take my DF shopping; DS usually borrows his brothers car to do that on a Sat morning. But I'm told by DS that it suited him to borrow ExH's car yesterday.
Reasonable or not, I am so hurt and I feel like this man is inching his way back in by any means necessary and it's not because his illness has made him have a sudden epiphany. It's because the other relationship ended and he wants what he left behind. I feel like DS is being disloyal; by his own admission he said that if the situation were reversed and I was to spend time with people who have seriously done him wrong, telling them stuff about DS and generally including them in my life he'd be really upset and pissed off with me.

But it's ok for him, because it suited him to use ExH's car.
I have to stop typing now.

Such an excellent post from Foundmy back on page 2.

"I think boundaries are key here - explaining to your DS that you respect his decision of who he decides to be in contact with but need him to draw a hard line when it comes to any talk of you & to ask him to respect that. Then once you’ve reached an agreement calmly, no more talk of this with your DS as hard as that might be.

If this man was in his life for 20 years, of course there would be a relationship & emotional connection there, even if there shouldn’t be when balancing up all that has gone on.

You can’t control what others do but the things you can focus on are using any coping strategies you’ve learnt from therapy, taking really good care of yourself during this time, reaching out to friends who aren’t involved in this dynamic for support & establishing that boundary with your son." There is more in that post and I just felt it was so helpful and well written.

He might well be looking to be cared for - but it's not going to happen, is it? You won't be volunteering. And I shouldn't think your sons will be all that interested when it comes down to the nitty gritty of end-of-life care. Don't get dragged into it - if it comes up in conversation, say you're not interested in hearing about him. But if your sons do choose to maintain some kind of relationship, they're grown men and you can't stop them.

MsSweary

"feelings about having posted now but that's the risk isn't it."

If you are unhappy with the thread or feel it may be outing to you )as it does have a lot of detail in it) you can ask Mumsnet HQ to delete it.

In your opening post you said "I have been here a long time but I've never posted in AIBU"

One thing to remember is a lot of people will come on and be answering your opening post. They will not necessarily have red the 9 pages of discussion and debate so they will again be going back to your starting point.

This is why it can seen very unpleasant in AIBU because people just want to tell you what they think about your opening post without fully following all that has been said.

You could ask for this to be moved to relationships, and you would not get so much traffic.

Good luck OP. I cannot for the life of me see why any posters cannot understand information on where you live and where you work would be information you would want to keep from a man who had tried to swindle you out of money! Some people are just not very aware.

You installed this man as a a father figure in your son’s life. Once you do that, you don’t get to be the one to sever the relationship. It’s now between the step-father and son.

I have been awake since really early this morning. Please try not to judge me as manipulative, I want to say this because some things resonated. Actually most of the time I''m able to keep a lid on things but right now (maybe pandemic, maybe my time of life, maybe lots of things) and yesterday I suddenly felt so threatened and afraid I had to start the thread. And overnight I joined some dots up again.

Early CSA of me by a male relative on DF's side.
Emotionally and sometimes physically absent, controlling and cold mother (now dead). Weak, unfaithful DF, now demented and always unwilling to acknowledge or talk about the past.
Complete denial of the CSA by parents and DGPs; forbidden to talk about it, forbidden to tell. For years. DF says he doesn't believe it happened and I am a shit stirrer.

Placed into care system by parents until age 16. Male relative gets to stay in family and there are memories of his photographs on display in MGM's front room, proud pictures of his achievements. of his own children. I'm not allowed to sully his reputation as hero.
Lots and lots of family secrecy and hints from DM about my DF having a shameful secret that she'd held over him to stop him leaving her.
I married as early as possible to escape.

Had to be good clean girl always; punishments were always to cut me out and behave like I didn't exist; exceptions to that were always when parents marriage became rocky; I was brought back in to be a fix.
DM wanted to abort me; sometimes I wish she had.
My kids know some things because they've asked the kinds of questions that children do over time. They know enough to know in their own right because when my parents cut me out they also cut out my children from their lives.

It's a bit sad, all of it. I used to watch couples and their children and wonder how they can just seem so happy, like life wasn't a struggle, like they had some kind of special quality that I wasn't born with. When I met ExH he seemed to offer the opportunity and I fell in love with the idea of him as a heor and even when I realised he was not all that, I spent the remaining years of the marriage trying to get it back to how it had been.

I know lots of people have said therapy which I've had years of, on and off. It's really not the panacea but I really do appreciate that suggestion comes from a good and thoughtful place.

You’ve obviously been through a lot OP, but the key here is not to burden your children with your own emotional issues or allow them to impact on your relationship with them.

Ah, op. It's okay, really it is.

From what you've said about the children you've raised, there is no ongoing awful disaster here - the younger two avoid your ex h, the older one wants a relationship. And that's okay.

I wonder if you're worrying that the pain of your earlier life has somehow infected your life with your adult children? It doesn't sound like it has, or if it has impacted, only in a 'normal' way - eg not ideal choice of partner.

You have lots of trauma which is informing your emotional response to all this with your ex h. But really, you're doing well. You're not going to heap anything on your eldest son or ask him to choose - good! You're going to keep your good relationships with all of your children - good! Ignore this fucker, he's stirring up old pain for you.

Can you drop your therapist an email today and ask if they can give you a call tomorrow? It sounds like you need to talk.

But you're not a bad person and you've done well. Breathe.

And no matter how much all of the above is boiling up in your head today, don't speak to your son about it when you meet him today, or connect it in any way with him seeing your exh.

It's fine to get it out here, or with your therapist, just don't allow any of it to threaten your relationship with your son by connecting it. Ask him politely to say some words of your choice if ex asks how you're getting on, if you think he struggles with what to say, eg 'mum has asked me not to mention her; so I've said I won't' or similar.

Sorry you've been through all of this OP but YABVU to expect your ds to carry the weight of your burdens. You were together 20, I'm sure you out a lot of effort into forging a good relationship between your ds and his stepfather but now you think he should break away in order to be loyal to you? You are coming across as very me, me, me and don't underestimate the impact that your alcohol dependency had in your children either.

One thing that is very hard to accept for any mums, especially those who were single mums and held the sole responsibility of bringing them up, with all the stress that comes with it, is to accept that our children don't owe us anything from it. Bringing them up was our duty nor an investment.

Our adult children don't have to be the extension of our lives together. Some are, but some are not. They grow up to experience their own perspectives on people and life. That doesn't mean in anyway that they love us less, just that they see and experience things through different eyes.

Your eldest's relationship with his previous dad, a person who ended up a parental figure to him us completely seperated to you. His feelings for him, good and/or bad are not aligned with your relationship with this man but his own previous and present affection for him.

It may be that he can focus on the positive only and ignore the negative. Maybe he is nothing more than a guy he likes to share a beer with or discussions about a particular hobby.

And maybe, or most likely, he agreed to take his car because it's a much more fun car to drive than his brothers or yours, or was more convenient to use at the time.

Men's brains are not as complex as ours when it comes to analysing feelings. If he wanted to drive the car, that's the reason why he asked if he could or agreed if it was offered. The concept of hurting your feelings because that feature want a level of bonding that would upset you is in all likelihood way above his level of analysis.

You acting cold and not wanting to talk to him is at the right level though and something he will pick up and he upset about.

YANBU if it was his actual Dad I would think differently but it isn't and he should be staying loyal to you after all your ExH has done to you. I would feel the same way you are. I would perhaps let your DS know how you feel and then just leave it as that.

No wonder you feel as you do. What you perceive as your DS's disloyalty must be really stirring up old feelings about nobody looking out for you or looking after you. Try to separate your own relationship with your children from their relationship with their step dad.

My mum was treated terribly by my dad and for years she couldn't stand it if I spent any time with him. As the child in that situation, I found it really difficult, because I had my own relationship with him which was separate to hers. Although I could understand that it must have been terrible for her, he never treated me badly, and I simply wanted to continue to have a relationship with him. I think eventually she did what people are advising you to do, in that we simply never talked much about him when we spent time together. The older I get, I can see so much more clearly what he put her through, and of course I think that's terrible. He must have been an awful partner. But he wasn't a terrible father. Maybe that's how your DS's feel. Don't forget they have years of their own, presumably much happier, relationship with him that's really hard for a "child" (even as an adult) to dismiss.

In my adult life, I also ended up in a terrible relationship. Somehow I've always been able to separate my feelings about him from the relationship he has with our children. Maybe partly due to the years of criticism I heard from my mum about my dad. I never wanted that for my children. I always remain vigilant about their relationship with their dad, knowing what he can be like, and would support them in a heartbeat if things became difficult for them, but ultimately I would rather they have a happy relationship with him, than not. It's far better for them to have that.

Try not to see it as not being loyal to you if they see him. They love you and that will be completely separate to how they feel about your ex. Don't allow him to damage your own relationship with your children. I expect he would love that. Ignore him completely, have coffee with your son and agree not to talk about your ex. Talk about other things instead. Ignore your ex completely and try not to let him affect you (at least on the outside in public - of course you can cry at home, and get your feelings out).

Just tell your DS's that you're happy your ex is no longer in your life and you'd rather not talk about him. And do your utmost to focus on your own lovely relationship with your children.

OP I really hope tgis thread is helping you in some small way. But as I said above please remember new people to the thread nay not have read all you have poured out here. If you cannot cope with any further comments (it seems most are gebuinky compassionate here but earlier you had son awful ones) then you can ask for this to be deleted it moves to relationships.

Good luck OP. Therapy is not a panacea. You are right. But it can help in some circumstances. What it seems you have now is a real current potential issue which in your mind is linked to previous issues. So therapy now could work on that potential connection and help you manage things now.

...it seems most are genuinely compassionate here but earlier you had some awful ones...

Why not consider EMDR. I have not had it but have heard really good things. It is available for PTSD on the NNS.

"Eye movement desensitisation and reprocessing (EMDR) is a relatively new treatment that's been found to reduce the symptoms of PTSD. It involves making side-to-side eye movements, usually by following the movement of your therapist's finger, while recalling the traumatic incident."

www.nhs.uk/conditions/post-traumatic-stress-disorder-ptsd/treatment/

If I were you OP I would text your DS and say you haven't slept too well and you are not going to meet up today. Give yourself some time to let these big difficult emotions subside a bit.

I too think most DC choose themselves not to maintain a relationship with someone who has hurt the parent that brought them up. But not all do.

It's very hard not to feel that as disloyalty (and you must never let that show or it will affect your relationship with DS) but I read that choice as DS needing something from your ex. That might be a paternal input, a kindness remembered from your ex, or just the need to rise above everything and show an undeserved kindness to someone who's ill.

Whatever is driving your DS's choice it won't be a wish to hurt his mother. And that's the important thing to remember.
By all means reiterate that you don't want ex knowing your business. But don't allow the ex to drive a rift between you and DS. If you can do that you will get through this without any harm to your relationship with DS or his siblings.

We're just moving this over to relationships for the OP.

@MsSweary

I have been awake since really early this morning. Please try not to judge me as manipulative, I want to say this because some things resonated. Actually most of the time I''m able to keep a lid on things but right now (maybe pandemic, maybe my time of life, maybe lots of things) and yesterday I suddenly felt so threatened and afraid I had to start the thread. And overnight I joined some dots up again.

Early CSA of me by a male relative on DF's side.
Emotionally and sometimes physically absent, controlling and cold mother (now dead). Weak, unfaithful DF, now demented and always unwilling to acknowledge or talk about the past.
Complete denial of the CSA by parents and DGPs; forbidden to talk about it, forbidden to tell. For years. DF says he doesn't believe it happened and I am a shit stirrer.

Placed into care system by parents until age 16. Male relative gets to stay in family and there are memories of his photographs on display in MGM's front room, proud pictures of his achievements. of his own children. I'm not allowed to sully his reputation as hero.
Lots and lots of family secrecy and hints from DM about my DF having a shameful secret that she'd held over him to stop him leaving her.
I married as early as possible to escape.

Had to be good clean girl always; punishments were always to cut me out and behave like I didn't exist; exceptions to that were always when parents marriage became rocky; I was brought back in to be a fix.
DM wanted to abort me; sometimes I wish she had.
My kids know some things because they've asked the kinds of questions that children do over time. They know enough to know in their own right because when my parents cut me out they also cut out my children from their lives.

It's a bit sad, all of it. I used to watch couples and their children and wonder how they can just seem so happy, like life wasn't a struggle, like they had some kind of special quality that I wasn't born with. When I met ExH he seemed to offer the opportunity and I fell in love with the idea of him as a heor and even when I realised he was not all that, I spent the remaining years of the marriage trying to get it back to how it had been.

I know lots of people have said therapy which I've had years of, on and off. It's really not the panacea but I really do appreciate that suggestion comes from a good and thoughtful place.

It sounds like you have many patterns of keeping quiet/putting up and shutting up for the apparent greater good of the 'family'. Perhaps with your parents no longer holding that sort of powerful position in your life you are beginning to experience some freedom from those positions you were offered as a way of being close to the people who should have been there for you unconditionally. You do sound to have a really good reflective grasp of how life events and relational experiences have impacted on you so the work you have done in therapy may have not been wasted. If only therapy could take away the hurt - sometimes that is an elusive experience we have to provide for ourselves. Perhaps the experience of having your son re-connect or connect more openly with your Ex-H has reminded you of the hurtful and harmful expectations put upon you by your family to protect themselves from shame of abusers in the fold. For what it might be worth I don't see you as manipulative, I see you as worried and in pain from years of being excluded for trying to tell your story. Your children are not children any more, let them support you and understand how the experiences have impacted yours and others lives.

That’s more than a ‘bit sad’ and more than explains why this is so hard. What an awful family response to your trauma. So many years of not being listened to. I am sorry OP and also for sounding tart when I first posted. You don’t sound manipulative just hurt and that’s so hard to deal with. Talking is still the best route to acceptance ... friends or therapists or online - I hope you find that right balance of congruence and harmony