To feel hurt and betrayed by my DS?

[MsSweary]

I have been here a long time but I've never posted in AIBU and I'm not sure if that's even relevant but I have to say this to someone. My head is all muddled up and i probably should wait until I calm down but I can't.

I am so very angry and hurt by my eldest DS (he is 37) and I don't know if my feelings are justified and if they're not I think there must be something wrong with me. He is the oldest of my 3 DC's. Both my eldest DS's are from my first marriage. My DD is from my second marriage.

The back story is I divorced my ExH 10 years ago; the years leading up to the end were hideous and I was a mental and emotional wreck and thought I was mad; I was drinking too much to cope with things that didn't make sense and I was on antidepressants. ExH is what I think is called functional alcoholism so never really got drunk but couldn't be without alcohol daily; he'd had a gambling habit during university, he told me early on.
In our marriage He'd also had at least one 'emotional affair', and I once came home early in the day to find him alone with one of them who by that time he'd given a job in his service; not having sex but when i walked in he jumped back from her like a scared rabbit. She had also turned up at our house once in the evening claiming to have broken down and couldn't get back to London that evening so we put her up; a week later ExH decided to buy this woman an item of clothing exactly like the one of his that he'd leant her to sleep in because "she loved it so much" and some months I later found texts between them saying I love you.

After couples counselling during which he never accepted or acknowledged that his behaviour was unnaceptable, he left me for a woman he'd lived with whilst at Uni so it was the age old story; that affair was ongoing during the time we were supposed to be saving our marriage and i later found out he'd come to the appointments from being with her. . Eventually his clear hatred of me wasn't enough to tip me over the edge into throwing him out (because I thought the problem was mine). Either alone or together they decided to send me an anonymous letter informing me of the affair and then ExH blamed our then 15 year old DD for having sent it. i know she couldn't have and wouldn't and she was so upset that her DF had suggested it was her; the post mark of the letter placed ExH in the area he works in, too far away for DD to possibly have been in as she was at school.

She, by the way, had learned of his infidelity or put 2 and 2 together and had begged him to tell me but he wouldn't; when I found this out out her anger and spiteful comments to him and telling me I was a fool, began to make sense. I also found out that he had been stealing money from my bank account as part of the plan to screw me financially whilst I was at my most vulnerable but that particualr plan failed. I should've learned what was to come earlier when he once cleared my bank account right up to the overdraft. I know I was stupid not to end it there and then but I'd not long had our DD and had just moved into the first house we'd bought. I so very nearly did though, and I never really felt the same about him after that.

A week after he left and whilst I was still in shock he introduced my eldest DS to the new partner. My younger DS would not have anything to do with ExH.

I'm sorry for telling in such detail (and I've left loads out as you get the picture). So ExH has split with the woman and moved permanently back to the area. He has been seriously ill, very seriously. I have stayed away all this time and I'm in a much better place after lots of therapy and I haven't had alcohol at all for about 8 years and no inclination to drink at all.

But ExH is slowly inching back in to my DS's lives and the 'weak link' has always been eldest DS whose relationship with his birth dad has never been great but it's not awful either. It's been a source of tension for us as ExH is very manipulative and only ever sees people as a resource to help him get what he wants. Younger DS saw him and spoke to him for the first time in 10 years a couple of weeks ago. ExH mentioned that he hadn't met DS's young son (my DGS). It was a clear bid to get that introduction I think. DS didn't respond but I don't think ExH will give up.

I found out this morning that yesterday ExH leant my eldest DS his car to take my DF shopping; DS usually borrows his brothers car to do that on a Sat morning. But I'm told by DS that it suited him to borrow ExH's car yesterday.
Reasonable or not, I am so hurt and I feel like this man is inching his way back in by any means necessary and it's not because his illness has made him have a sudden epiphany. It's because the other relationship ended and he wants what he left behind. I feel like DS is being disloyal; by his own admission he said that if the situation were reversed and I was to spend time with people who have seriously done him wrong, telling them stuff about DS and generally including them in my life he'd be really upset and pissed off with me.

But it's ok for him, because it suited him to use ExH's car.
I have to stop typing now.

YABU
He knew the man for 20 years?
He is allowed to have a relationship with him. You cannot CONTROL who he has a relationship with.

Yes you are still hurt but don't dictate to your son what he can and cannot do. Your hurt and upset is yours. You don't have to turn everyone against your ex.

Hello OP - I did get the 'meaning behind' issue of the involvement of this ex-H car with your own father, its got discomforting undertones. What does your father think about this man coming back into peoples lives BTW is he likely to be easy going or fixed in his response?

I think like someone else said the way you feel and the way you deal are the nuts and bolts of what you need to focus on on. I would consider getting some additional support for yourself - money well spent probably - especially if you have an ex who has ,moved back to the area and no longer has people in his life who have ordinarily kept him at bay. That will help you work through the emotions about it and clarify rational thought processes.

The situation with your eldest son may be much more complicated. Perhaps he has similar ways of thinking to the younger you and isn't able to be as cut and dry as your other children - he may genuinely not see an issue with having both of you in his life and he may see the complexity of your lives as normal so it possibly doesn't occur to him not to chat about what is going on with 'the family'. I think you have to wait until you can get your emotions under control and have a balanced conversation where you can both speak and listen about this subject. You do not have to agree but if you can at least listen to each others positions, you will be able to understand one another. You are well within your rights to be explicitly clear that you do not want any information about your personal circumstances to be shared with your ex-husband - including what might seem like fairly factual details like work and area of residence. Hopefully your eldest son will take this on board and tell his step-dad out of respect, I have to honor her wishes. I don't agree but that's how it is.

As to whether this mans motives for reconnecting are pure self-interest or otherwise, there is not much you can do about it. From the position of someone who spent such a long time with him perhaps you have a heightened sense of how hard it is to recognize when there is an exploitative element to the dynamic. Unfortunately you cannot make those decisions for others only yourself. There may always be a painful element of this for you if you think you made choices and decisions that ultimately changed the way family life went and you now regret those. Your best approach is to be boundaried - I see it this way and these are my requests. I know you may see things differently and I can respect your choices and decisions and I expect that you will do the same about mine. At least that way if your worst fears are realised, ie ex-H uses and exits - at least you still have a relationship with your family were you can support one another rather than play the 'I told you so' game. I just wonder how your 3 children try to make sense of all this and what it might do their sibling relationship if they are being positioned take sides. Try to create a different type of discussion where you can each be your own person with it.

@Dumakey

OP, you sound just like my mum.

Her relationship with my step father ended over 20 years ago, she still hasn't dealt with it. At the time, as late teens, it was very obvious that we had to choose where our loyalties lay. So we chose her, because she was so heartbroken.

The problem is, if my stepfather turned up on her doorstep today, she would take him back in a heartbeat. She would expect us to have a relationship with him.

It's not fair. She is very manipulative and is always playing the victim. She cant see that her life turned out the way it did partly down to her choices/ inaction.

We have a strained relationship and I don't enjoy spending time with her.

It is very sad.

This is absolutely nothing like the OP’s situation and you are clearly projecting your own issues onto her here. Sounds like you need to work on those issues yourself.

MrsCBY

There's nothing that needs working on.

You are entitled to your opinion, as am I.

OP your posts are so much about you that I wonder if you've ever considered how your sons feel? I'm not trying to put the boot in further but "I" and "me" are probably the most commonly used words in your posts. You've suffered a lot of pain at this man's hands and you're not over it, that's clear. However your sons will have conflicting feelings here. This man was effectively their father for most of their lives.

@middleeasternpromise

Thank you, I get what you are saying and it makes sense about my eldest son seeing things the way the younger me would have and both my other DCs are definitely more cut and dried about such things. I never saw it like that before that's so helpful . I can have a talk with him with that in mind. I didn't know it but both my parents had always felt a sense of deep distrust for my ExH and they only told me when the marriage imploded and they helped me pay my legal costs . DF has dementia and is vulnerable; but I know that he thought exH is a shit and how much hurt there was. So the DF who knew him would not like it really.

@Dumakey I'm sorry about your DM. Obviously I don't know her but I can tell you for sure that there would be no circumstances under which I would contemplate any kind of relationship with ExH and nor am I pining for one but every case is different.

@Smellbellina it's hard to keep reading the same thing over and over again and it's been a shock, so I'm not actually taking in the posts which aren't saying I'm manipulative and not really very good as a mum and I brought him into my kids lives (who didn't have a choice).

Sorry you’re getting such a hard time here MsSweary, I don’t think you sound manipulative at all. You sound like you’ve worked very hard to get over a very toxic relationship.

But obviously there is a serious issue here in the relationship you have with your eldest DS and it is up to you as the parent, ultimately, to take the lead in resolving that, even though he’s all grown up.

I’m just not sure how you do that! How honest have you been with your son about why the relationship ended and why you want nothing to do with him now? Does he understand how badly he (your ex) hurt you? Does your son understand how much it hurts you when he (your son) doesn’t respect your wishes?

No experience yet of parenting an adult child, but this sounds tough. It sounds like the whole thing (your two marriages and the break ups) impacted your son much more than you realise. Can you just try and talk to him and really listen to him, listen to how it is from his side, listen to why it’s so important to him to still have this (very unpleasant sounding) man in his life? If he feels you’re listening to him, it just might make him more open to really listening to you too.

You’re not at all the awful person some people are making you out to be, but you do need to somehow restore the mother/(adult) child dynamic with your son.

I know it hurts, a lot.

But you can't get involved, explain to your DC that you do not want to know about it, but you really can't stop them.
Illness makes people do things like this, my 'dad' did the same, and to begin with, I felt the same about my brothers seeing him, after everything he did to out mum and me, he just swans back into his life, but eventually I began to realise, if I stop them, they won't forgive me, he died a few short weeks later, and I dont have to worry about him ever again, but my brothers got a few weeks with him.

💐 For you

Think of this from your sons point of view. No matter what your ExH has done he is still your sons father and the only father he is ever going to have. He has to have some relationship with him, this might be his only chance.

@MrsCBY
Yes DS felt his birth F's abandonment very much indeed and he still struggles to keep his DF's interest and contact up; sometimes he breaks contact with his DF because he gets so disheartened. Whilst we were married first H was a good DF and ok as a DH but always a bit distant IYSWIM.

Yes he knows what happened.

Why is making a post about me not ok? it's better to work this through here isn't it?

MsSweary

I believe you 100% that you are not remotely interested in having any kind of relationship with you Exh. That is good.

I didnt mean to sound so harsh in my comments to you. I apologise. Pp was correct that I was projecting my feelings.

I have an extremely strained relationship with my mum, that will never be fixed. It would take both of us to fix it and she doesnt think she's done anything wrong.

Please dont let your feelings of hurt come between you and your son.

I wish you all the best.

With my DH, his DM and DF had a very bitter divorce, after DF had done many terrible things, and completely shafted so many people. His DB and DS refuse to have anything to do with DF, understandably, that's their call, and we respect that.

DH chooses to have a LC relationship with his father, very LC, given he lives in Aussie, thank goodness.

DH's mother and sister have had a very hard time with this, seeing him as not being sufficiently loyal to them, and his mother once even crying down the phone at him, saying she regretted saying she'd never make him choose a side, and he should have done so, without her having to ask. (I was quite angry about that. That is not okay.)

Something we have chosen as a boundary for that relationship, is that we do not give DF any information about any other member of the rest of the family, now will we pass on messages to them, or in any shape, or form, facilitate him presuming he has any kind of place in their lives. Other than a response to, 'oh and how is x', being 'x is fine', and changing the subject.

Could you talk with DS, and say that you respect his right to choose who he has a relationship with, but that you would like him to respect your right to not have your information shared with someone who has caused you great harm, and much hurt in the past.

My reading of your concerns are:

1. Your eldest son is now re-developing a close relationship with his step father, your ex.
2. Your DS1 is involving your younger son, who is also beginning to develop a relationship with him (your ex, his step father).
3. You are concerned for your sons, because you know that your ex is manipulative.
4. You are concerned for yourself because they are sharing private details about you and your life with your ex.

Is that about right?

If so:

1. Your eldest is 37. You have told him about your ex. He has also seen what damage your ex can do. He's an adult and will have to learn the hard way about this relationship I'm afraid. You have discharged your responsibility by telling him what you know.
2. Presumably your younger son is also an adult. If you've told him what you know about his step dad, you have discharged your responsibility. Sadly not much more you can do at this stage.
3. You have told your sons your concern. They have to make their own minds up and ignored your advice. Try to leave it. Maybe refuse to discuss things any further, don't engage with them about this toxic man. Be there, be ready and try not to say I told you so when they come for comfort when he turns on them. Prepare yourself so you can do this.
4. Here you are definitely NOT being unreasonable. Your personal details should be respected by your sons. YANBU being cross with them, to detach from them whilst you sort yourself out and decide what you can, and want, to do about this, if anything. They are adults they have hurt you. They need to take the consequences of that hurt and you need to protect yourself. If they ask why you have withdrawn, tell them. Let them know that they have betrayed you, put you in a vulnerable position by disclosing where you live and work when you specifically told them not to. What's worse, they betrayed you to an abusive man. Tell them that you can no longer trust them with personal information and that they need to regain your trust.

You can do this. You have come a long way since you threw him out. You are in a better position and are much stronger. You don't have little ones to protect anymore either. good luck.

Mrs McSweary: "Why is making a post about me not ok? it's better to work this through here isn't it?"
...........
Yes it is. Many people post on here and bare their souls in a way they cannot in real life and I think that is good.

I don't think you are manipulative, you are just hurt and worried. Please try to relax, it will work itself out.

This has become an unnecessary pile on. The very nature of AIBU is asking if your point of view is unreasonable. OP has been told she is, and has taken it in good grace. People criticising ng that the initial post is all from op's point of view are missing the point of AIBU

MsSweary sounds like your DS1 has real abandonment issues then from his DF, and that’s what’s making him cling to his SF. Very sad. I do think in that context that the more you can listen to him, the better. Sounds like he still needs life advice about people who deserve to be trusted and people who don’t! Can you say something like it took you a long time to learn and you learnt the hard way and just want to pass on some of that hard earnt wisdom?!

And yes it’s totally reasonable to make a post about you, and as you said much better than dumping all this on him unedited.

@EarlGreyJenny well said.

Not the same but there’s been a lot of bad feeling the last couple of years between my partner and his parents because of his desire to keep in touch with his step grandfather. Step grandfather and his nana were married from before the time my DP was born- a good ten years before. DP treated this man as his grandpa and in turn was treated as a grandson by the guy. After DPs nana died there was a godawful family row over the estate and the funeral (DPs parents and his fathers sisters all very clearly the ones in the wrong). DP decided he wanted to keep his Grandpa in his life (well, step Grandpa, although he never calls him that) and it’s caused a lot of bad feeling. My DPs reasoning that that he’s 42 so more than capable of making his own choices, that this is a man who’s never been unkind to him (and has literally been the only Grandpa he’s ever known) and that our sons (now 7 and 9) are also attached to him. Also it’s not like my DP is insisting his Grandpa comes over for Sunday lunch with everyone once a month, he keeps his Grandpa separate from his Dad and aunts who all hate him.

I think this is entirely DPs choice and what his parents think is irrelevant. Same here, whatever your son wants to do, as long as it’s not involving you, is his choice.

Dumakey I thought that was a very honest second post and that takes integrity. Sorry for also being a bit harsh.

And I know how much it hurts to have a mother who has let you down on a profound level. It is truly one of the most painful things there is.

It's hard to understand the point of opening threads by poster's if they can't post how they feel.

We all are guilty at times of being unreasonable in how we can feel about things and need to give our heads a wobble.

It is very unnecessary and unkind to pile on a poster who feels vulnerable at her abusive Ex turning up.

She may have to get over herself but it's really ñot unreasonable for her to feel upset and put out about it.

Your ds had already raised the fact that if the situation were reversed he would not like it so use this as an opener to a conversation about it. Ask him not to discuss you and your business. Ask him to deflect or change the subject. That is your wish. If he cannot do this then you need to seriously cut back on what you tell your ds and cut down the amount you see him. If your ex wants help with his ongoing health issues then make it clear you dont want to know, you dont want to hear anything about him and you know exactly what his plan is and you are not playing that game any more. Your kids are on their own with that one.

@MsSweary

It doesn't have to be top secret does it? It's about me.

I suspect everything is.

Thanks for that @choli. Such insight.

OP,
I think you sound so human and relatable.

Ignore those that would make you regret posting.

I hope you didn't think I was piling on you OP. I really sympathise with you. You've been treated like crap by that man, no wonder you don't want him any part of your life now, and by extension, your son's. Especially knowing what a user he is.