Does anyone else thing most posters here disproportionately tell women to leave their partners as a default answer?

[Kemputer]

Does anyone else thing most posters here disproportionately tell women who post a thread here to leave their partners as a default answer?

Yes for some that is the obvious response e.g if a woman was being hit by her partner or cheated on etc. But for others, I’m surprised no one takes the couples therapy type approach suggestions of seeing two sides (I know there is bias as it’s only written from 1 side) and working through issues As it’s almost resigning some men as unchangeable and defective for a relationship I guess?

Please no hate - just an observation

Would highly recommend posters read the “Happyish home, heavy heart” thread. Lots of posts of women leaving/considering leaving when their husbands by their own admission haven’t really done anything wrong.

I don’t know what to think tbh. I find it all so depressing: that even if they give it their all and aspire to be the “good man” it can never be enough because ennui and the “ick” can happen and then your told to LTnotsoB as well.

I get everyone has the right to choose. That no-one should be a martyr to a lost cause. Perhaps then, we should not condemn men who leave walk out on their wives simply because they no longer feel “alive”. The thought revulses me bit I can’t see how that’s any different, if no abuse or lies are involved.

The demographic point you raise is my rationale behind equality within feminism.
Equal pay, equal status, equal ability to be financially independent.

We have men under 50 committing suicide increasingly, and frankly, I worry for the world my DS will grow up in as reading MN, he could be in a situation with a future wife after and be accused of being abusive for being a bit grumpy after a day at work. If he says nothing, he is stonewalling. If he encourages her to work, he is lazy. If he works too much he isn't pulling his weight.

That's why I say equality, not superiority. In a world where the female is superior, not equal, the gender of the victim is all that changes & men retreat. Japan is experiencing this.

Sorry for double post, but the point is emphasis on MUM. We have DS, and when we say LTB and cite abuse - understand that your own DS may well be accused of the same, even if you bring them up not to. I went to school with an individual accused of rape by a wife that was caught cheating on her husband. He was drunk, she was not. The CCTV showed her leading him, yet he was put in a cell for a day and obv released without charge. There ARE abusive women on MN, so posts should be taken with the view that the OP may be misleading the situation.

Sometimes LTB is a shorthand for “you can’t make people want to change” - so your options are continuing to live with it, or leave.

I’ve read lots of posts along the line of “how can I get husband to stop doing [annoying/dismissive thing]? He gets narked when I bring it up, and isn’t the type to go to a GP or counsellor.” What options are there? Put up with it or leave. Obviously other things factor into “putting up with it” but ultimately, mumsnetters are a bit clearer eyed than most people that you can’t sticker-chart your husband into giving a shit.

@morred exactly.

Besides, people know the solutions and they know what it is they want to do.

They just want sympathy most of the time.

Also Mumsnet doesnt seem to grasp the difference between abusive behaviour and an abuser. I've lived with an abuser which was his long term campaign to isolate and minimise me. On the other hand you can show abusive behaviours in times of stress while not being an abuser and both men and women do it.

It's you that doesn't understand the difference.

Abuse is a pattern of behaviour, not a one off.

No, you can't show abusive behaviour only in times of stress as that's still abuse. It's still a pattern of behaviour because you're being abusive when stressed. You shouldn't abuse anyone, ever.

A woman may come on here and say my DP called me a cunt in an argument.

You seem to have a very low bar for acceptable behaviour. A man calling his partner a cunt. A cunt. That's ok is it? That's ok because of whatever you were doing before?

The scenarios you are setting out in order to back up your argument are abusive and someone would, quite rightly, be advised to leave. Calling your partner a cunt is emotional abuse and belies a complete lack of respect for them. It's also deeply misogynistic behaviour.

A six foot man leaning over a five foot something woman and calling her a cunt is intimidating, abusive behaviour. Doubt he'd lean into another man's face and call him that do you?

These are deeply dysfunctional relationships that you are outlining. People screaming cunt at each other, hitting each other, calling each other names, ranting. Why on earth do you think that's acceptable behaviour by either of them?

A man hitting a woman in an argument is abusive behaviour and the person would, quite rightly, be advised to take steps to leave. Two women a week are killed by a partner or former partner.

Is it ok for a woman to hit her partner? Absolutely not. No one should be hitting anyone in a relationship. There aren't any double standards here. Abuse is wrong.

Telling someone to 'fuck off' when they try to initiate sex is abusive. If you seriously need to be told this, I recommend the Freedom Programme as you are obviously clueless when it comes to acceptable behaviour.

If a man gets told to 'fuck off' when trying to initiate sex, of course that's wrong.

You seem to live in an Andy Capp cartoon - life shouldn't be like that.

Freedom Programme

The stats are absolutely awful when you look at the impact of male violence and abuse in the home. It has a life long impact. Ah absolute majority of prisoners report seeing their mothers abused by their partners.

Most of the really abusive stuff I see on this board is like that. It starts with very small instances of controlling behaviour being reported.

A lot of male behaviour on these boards is based on a very cynical calculation as to who has the most power. Mercifully the law draws a line where that is limited, in the home.

Domestic abuse is a course of conduct. And it is actually pretty easy to work out who is and who isn’t. If a woman or man finds that their partner is absolutely fine with everyone else but is shouting, stonewalling, manipulating and controlling matters at home, then there is a very good chance that person is a domestic abuser.

Women are often told by society to ignore this. Ignore the instinct that there is something wrong. This board is really good at saying, listen to it.

12345kbm, the courts and law are a little less heavy handed than your interpretation.

They treat abuse as a spectrum. When is a pattern a pattern? A day? A week? A month? 1 year? 5 years? Etc.

That's the point here, far too often 'abuse' is cited yet we don't know the pattern. We don't know if the OPs pick 10 days and 355 the rest of them were fine. It's dangerous to encourage the breakup of a relationship with DC and criminal allegations in that context no? I would even say it's slander in some cases!

The Freedom Programme was researched and developed in a

The Freedom Programme just compartmentalises behaviour of men based on prejudices from the 90s, and compartmentalisation has been proven to create double standards, rigid thinking and bias. That's precisely why we then see young men compartmentalised by abusive women, as the Freedom Programme teaches no strategies for couples to identify when one is straying down into an abusive behaviour. A relationship involves keeping joint negative behaviours in check hence why we have long standing expressions such as "you bring the best out of me" "they make me a better person"

MN would surely do better to help posters identify early problems and encourage a proactive, preventative and collaborative response by default instead of 'run away'. Of course there are lost causes, but there will also be surprises and cynicism isn't experience.

Really?

Abusive behaviours are easily spotted. If you have been raised in a reasonable household you will know, man or woman, that you do not get your way by sulking or shouting, withholding money, quizzing partner as to whereabouts, pushing for sexual contact.

One of the things that is really striking is how often all these behaviours go together in an abusive situation.

Abusive conduct is related to how you were brought up. It’s your family pattern. It’s hard to change. This is the reason to intervene early before you get to physical violence.

@Vretz It's not my interpretation it's the law.

It's not judged on a 'spectrum' as it's specific behaviour. It's a pattern of behaviour used in order to establish and maintain power and control over another person. That can be emotional, financial, physical, psychological or physical abuse. It may include any or all of them, it's often a mixture.

It doesn't matter if the victim is smacked around 10 days out of 365, once is enough. Domestic abuse has a devastating effect on children and it is worse to keep them in an abusive household, than getting them away. There is plenty of evidence to back that up should you care to look.

The Freedom Programme teaches red flags of abusive behaviour and what constitutes a healthy or unhealthy relationship. There is a difference between abusive behaviour as defined by law and 'negative' behaviour which could be purely subjective. You have to approach this with a modicum of common sense. You've simply copy and pasted something from wiki about it because you have no idea what the Freedom Programme involves. Abusive behaviour from the 90s is abusive now.

Couple's counselling is often encouraged in order to deal with things like lack of communication but not for abusive behaviour, no. The only thing you can do that's constructive is leave the abuser.

You also have to remember that it's the person asking for and reading the advice, that gets to make the decision and act on it. I highly doubt that they are going to split up their family on the advice of MN if their problem is trivial and a one off.

Haven't read the whole thread but I do think LTB is used disproportionately here. Sometimes it's needed. In cases of abuse and mistreatment or general unhappiness. Other times it's thrown around because they had a row or he's been a bit lazy or they haven't had enough sex. Things that could potentially be sorted and worked on.

It's not always easy to leave a relationship especially with financial constraints, kids, mortgages and I do wonder if those who preach the LTB mantra would be so quick to follow their own advice.

TossaCoin -

*Would highly recommend posters read the “Happyish home, heavy heart” thread. Lots of posts of women leaving/considering leaving when their husbands by their own admission haven’t really done anything wrong.

I don’t know what to think tbh. I find it all so depressing: that even if they give it their all and aspire to be the “good man” it can never be enough because ennui and the “ick” can happen and then your told to LTnotsoB as well.*

I think this is a really important insight into one of the problems. We need to learn to accept that people DO fall out of love for no particular reason, and certainly that they sometimes lose interest in sex for no particular reason, when the other party hasn't done anything particularly wrong.

It may well be that in some such situations the best course of action is to leave, it may also sometimes be right to stay in a "friendship-marriage", particularly where children are involved.

But I think what sometimes happens here is that posters see the fact of the OP having fallen out of love/desire as evidence that their partner MUST have done something wrong. They then start looking for things to substantiate what they've already decided, latch on to whatever they can find in the description that could possibly be interpreted, with sufficient assumption and imagination, as abusive, and that becomes the accepted "reality" of the thread.

Apologies if this has been suggested already but as there are a lot of posters here who have experienced, either first hand or vicariously, abuse the advice given will reflect through that lens of experience.

I have caught myself offering all the information and challenging perceptions of what is ‘okay’ in a relationship as though I am telling my past self, who could have really done with it at the time of my abusive relationship! I think sometimes there can be a few LTB’s scattered throughout an otherwise reasonable thread that leads to the perception that it’s everywhere but when that happens I tend to skim them and look through the other advice offered to keep some perspective.

I do think that the first few responses to a post can have a snowball effect sometimes though and that’s as true with the LTB’s as any other type of reply.

I don’t think it’s said too often.

This really struck me

’it’s almost resigning some men as unchangeable and defective’

It’s actually about saying it’s not up to you to ‘fix’ your partner. The women who post on here haven’t pasted smiles on their faces and pretended that everything is rosy. They have told their partner that they’re unhappy, they have talked to their partner about it repeatedly and nothing has changed. It’s asking posters to stop worrying about sunk cost and ask them how they want their lives will be in a year or 5 from now.

There is very good financial advice on here too, which is why many posters leave after 2+ years rather than chucking their stuff in a suitcase and walking. Looking at things like retraining, childcare and the practicalities of leaving a relationship.

I wish there were more posts on here about about what to consider before you get pregnant. It’s so sad to read posts where you can see how unhappy the poster is with someone who is giving them no support and treating them like shit and then you read that they’re 8 months pregnant or have a young baby. So many woman are financially trapped in relationship that they don’t want to be in.

Yes I think it is suggested far too often on here that leaving is the only option.

However, many posters kindly giving advice have been through hell in their relationships, often abuse, partners who have cheated and gaslighted...they really have come through the other side as warriors and are always very well meaning and supportive - although sometimes a little overzealous.

OP's often come here for advice when they are at the end of their tether, and often things sound a lot worse when posting about it on an anonymous forum.

Having said that - I've seen many a thread where a naive and weak woman has been strengthened by this 'nest of vipers' and given some amazing advice and support.

I agree gin.
There's some posters who are so quick to view an OP through their own negative experiences that they refuse to consider that there are other perfectly plausible alternatives.

I find the threads on hobbies can be a bit like this. Lots of posters scramble to be the first to stick the knife into a guy for having a hobby outside the house when it's perfectly reasonable for both people to have their own hobbies and time outside the house. It's entirely reasonable for people to advise an OP that she too should have time to pursue her interests as both people having interests is reasonable.Sadly there are a number of posters on here who take the view 'if I don't have a hobby or interest then neither should my DP'.

Ffs I wasn't saying that anybody calling anybody a cunt was acceptable. I was using examples to show double standards. And to illustrate you have called the man's behaviour abuse and in the woman 'not okay'. The same behaviours.

@Vretz you’re wilfully ignoring the facts.

Fact 1 - women aren’t even close to equal in society, if anything we’re backsliding!

Fact 2 - men’s suicide rates being higher isn’t due to men being more suicidal it’s strongly related to the methods they choose being more “reliable” that particular myth is really starting to piss me off. For so long women’s distress and mental illness was pretty much ignored or put down to “weak character” but now that men’s mental health is being pushed to the fore all of a sudden it’s men have it worse? I don’t bloody think so!

And the more you post the more you dismiss, minimise and excuse abusive behaviour. It’s NEVER acceptable. There’s no excuses NONE.

As I think I said in earlier post, I grew up in a home where the marriage was abusive (still is, my mums having a hellish time at the moment because she can’t get out) there was physical abusive but by far more frequent and more damaging was the mental abuse. The constant belittling, nitpicking, accusations, complaints, criticism, degrading name calling, gaslighting... horrific.

I’ve read 2 threads just today where the woman is being treated disgustingly, one is a case of financial abuse and the other emotional. And I really don’t say this lightly their husbands have behaved and continue to behave as if their wives owe them something (in the financial case a HUGE amount of money) and the wives have tried to discuss with them to no avail.

@Graphista i am also a victim, but I don't presume someone who has behaved poorly or even abusive will always do so. There is CBT, DBT and various other medical techniques to change patterns of thought.

I'm sorry you feel I am minimising abuse, and the phrase 'I don't agree with your view, but I'll defend your right to have that view' springs to mind.

My line is where there is professional and independently verified evidence supporting an allegation of abuse. Anything below that, in my eyes, isn't abuse - it's a toxic relationship, which is a different thing. I respect you will presumably disagree with that.

I don't think it is minimising abuse to consider that there is an alternative reason for a specific pattern of behaviour, such as a relationship issue, poor communication or mental health. My rationale is because I don't want my DS growing up in a world where his emotions are seen as:

Angry - abusive
Sad - sulking
Enforcing the boundaries he needs for his MH - controlling
Being uncomfortable - complaining
Raising a concern on DP behaviour - gas lighting.

Who says we are all immune from being abusive? I'd put it to you that every MN poster has been abusive, and will be abusive to someone, making us all hypocrites.

For me it's not so much that I don't agree with the LTB advice, but I have seen it a few times where the OP is reluctant to do it because let's face it, it's fucking hard to do! And posters get all funny with them saying things like 'why even post then?', 'what do you want out of this thread then?' etc...

It strikes me as people just wanting to read about a bit of drama and the minute they realise the OP isn't going to immediately dump her husband of 30 years on their say so they get all arsey and bored with it.

I really don't like that.

No I dont think LTB is used too often, and i've also never come across any threads where LTB has been suggested because someones DH didnt load the dishwasher. I have read the entire thread and didnt see any links to these trivial LTB's that are constantly being referred to.

This forum openned my eyes and saved me probably years of unhappiness at the hands of my ex. It made me realise actually it was appalling what was being done to me and I believe it has helped countless other women too. Im forever grateful for every single LTB i got.

@Kemputer You're not wrong, it is almost 90% of people saying to leave him for doing even the tiniest thing "wrong"

I'll get pummelled for this post as will you, mumsnet has a disproportionate amount of people who cannot seem to notice it, if it wasn't true why would people keep posting it here?

I feel so sorry for posters who come on here for advice and end up with black and white responses based on the very limited and potentially based information shared, and believe it's a true representation of what actions are best for them to take.

The real world is thsnkfully so different to MN world. If I'd posted for advice about my relationship before getting married, I would without a doubt been told to ditch the abusive monster of a partner. As it is, I've been happily married for 11 years!

A lot of people who are in abusive relationships don't realise it!!! It's their normal, when they get a ton of people pointing it out it wakes them up. It woke me up and I LTB!! Much happier now, well done wise mumsnetters!!