Is it all me?

[KatieRobin]

I know there are far more important things going on in the world, so apologies as this may seem trivial. This is also my first post. After some advice. Have been with my husband for so long now I just don’t know what’s normal. DH is always grumpy. Never wants to talk. Never ever wants to have a back and forth conversation. Just a fun conversation.
Went out to walk our 2 dogs. Were out for 30 minutes and managed to somehow annoy him. Everything I say is wrong. Started saying just casually I wondered what work was going to be like next week. We are both key workers. Got the response of ‘ I don’t know’ I should have just stopped trying to make conversation, guess I was just desperate for some kind of chit chat. Then started saying about what unprecedented times we are living in. He said no it isn’t what about swine flu and aids. I said yes but they didn’t cause a lockdown. He starts getting angry. I don’t know why, maybe because I disagreed. I like normal conversations- like conversations I have with other people where you can have back and forths- you don’t always have to agree in the conversation and that’s fine. If I don’t agree he says I’m questioning him and starts saying that he’s not stupid and that he does know stuff. I just shut up. We walk in silence. When he put the poo bags in the poo bin I thought he’d touched it with his hand and said to be careful about touching it ( due to Covid -19 etc ) he started seething through his teeth saying he’d touched it with his elbow and that he’s not completely stupid, that he does know stuff and that I was really f@#ing pushing him. Then he started raising his voice saying which way are we going now. I just felt so sad that I can’t say a thing, not a thing that creates a normal conversation and the fact that he started saying I was pushing him ( he says this a lot ) I could feel tears in my eyes. I asked how I’m pushing him. He said ‘it’s you, it’s f@%ing you always questioning me’ I said I didn’t think I did at all. I just wanted a nice walk. He just kept banging on that it’s all me and that I treat him like he’s stupid. He even said something like ‘ I don’t go into work dribbling you know. I do know things’ I just don’t understand what I do wrong all the time to deserve to be spoken to like this. I’m in tears as he makes me feel so unloved. Is it me? I just don’t know anymore.

Treating him like a science experiment sounds like an idea. I’ve been starting to think of him as an alien anyway because of his behaviour.
Never heard of jade before but will try it. I need to let things go over my head. Difficult when you’re ‘in’ it.

Wow @FlowerArranger you left after 40 years?

Oh yes, I did. And I'm so glad I did [Admittedly he was nowhere near as bad as your husband, and if he hadn't cheated we'd still be together.]

@KatieRobin... stop banging on his door. He has shut it in your face - not because you are a horrible and inadequate person, but because he is a shitty individual. It's not you, it's him. He would have been obnoxious and abusive whoever he had ended up with.

Detach. Become a grey rock. Start planning your future. Do what you can to prepare for your fabulous life without him. Declutter and spruce up the house and do the same for yourself. Learn about self-esteem and resilience, and how to be content and happy in your own right, without looking to someone else to make you happy.

Seriously, you can do this. A year from now you'll look back and say "why the heck did it take me so long to leave him - but I sure am glad that I got there in the end!" ...

Wise words from flowerarranger. Keep talking here, and we'll support you. Stay strong and look forward to a brighter future, you deserve it

Dear OP I know exactly how you feel. I have a husband who appears to be perfect but has been driving me crazy for years. If I want to explain why he drives me nuts, most of the time I cannot. All I can say is that he does not make me happy, that he makes me sad and angry most of the time. Before him I was happy, singing and laughing, sociable, carrying, beautiful person that I loved and was proud of. 25 years with my husband, I became grumpy, angry, sad, stressed, moody, loner. I want to break the chains!!!!!!!!!! I want to be free! You should too. Often, we stay in a relationship because we think we should. The thing is we all deserve to be happy, to live our life our way, to have a partner that truly loves and supports us, cares for us, helps us spread our wings, not clip them. Be strong. Unfortunately, this stupid virus and quarantine made it all so much harder, but as soon as this is over, we should both (and I know that there are many more of us all over the world) deal with this.

I now agree that he’d have been like this whoever he’d been with @FlowerArranger. His past relationships are starting to make more sense. You sometimes, stupidly, think you’ll be the one to make it work where other women haven’t. Stupid way to think.

Going to look into JADE and women who love too much.

Thank you @SunshineDays2019. People on here have been so kind. I’m so grateful.

@loveyourself2020 do you have a plan? I’m sorry to hear you are going through similar.

In other news he bought me a pastry this morning

OP, I am in almost and identical situation (but have 2 children), I've come to realise that there are some people in life you can't help or reason with. It's not you who is at fault it is them, my husband seems to enjoy making me miserable - but that his problem. I have been saving little bits of money and have now paid the deposit on a house to rent - it's that thought that is keeping me going during the lockdown... that and entertaining myself by "clearing out all the junk" so that it's easier to move.
My suggestion to you is also to find something to focus on, start looking online at estate agents fees etc. have a clear out and remember that you are not responsible for his behaviour only how you respond to it. Also, the time hasn't been wasted as I'm sure you will have learnt something about yourself from it - you just might not realise until after.

Hi @icebear99 you’ve given me something to think about and I’ve started looking at places to potentially rent on my own. Can only do virtual viewings at the mo. Does your husband have any idea you’re going to go?

The pastry is ridiculously revealing:

• Get you fat before you leave him and if you don't want to eat it he can act the victim.
• Flouting isolation for shit reasons but if you comment he can act the victim.
• Literally some crumbs of affection in the face of you detaching.

@KatieRobin I found that some letting agents had done videos of properties before the lockdown started and they were able to email them to me.
I think he knows that I'm unhappy as the last couple of days he's been being more helpful but he's done that before and it never lasts. I don't think he'll ever really takes it seriously as when I've spoken to him in the past it's either that I'm at fault or he just can't see the problem. I don't think people like that ever really change and the trick really is to get out before they drag you down with them.

@KatieRobin, so many of your DH's words are identical to what my DH says to me, with "you are questioning me", "I'm not stupid" etc, we've also been together 15 years ..

Our latest example was when he was clearing the covered passage by the house where various random stuff gets dumped. When I did the first major clearout of it I just did it - but now he was doing it a few months later he got in a rage as he always does when he is doing something he doesn't enjoy but feels he needs to and no one is volunteering to help him - so he kept throwing things on the drive and shouting about living like pigs etc.
At some point he stormed into the house and said he was turning the power off. I was taken by surprise and said but what about the freezer defrosting? It sent him ballistic, wtf was I asking that, and the freezer wouldn't defrost even in 12 hours and so on. To be honest I didn't realise he was disconnecting the power to do some electrical work, I thought it was one of his ideas where he thinks disconnecting the power would get everyone's attention, stop DS playing games etc

When later we tried to talk about it(trying to talk is a new thing, usually he'd be pissed off for ages and I'd be down for ages afterwards), I asked what was so wrong with needing an explanation why power needs to be disconnected suddenly, and he said that it's my questioning him drives him mad, and even he just wanted to disconnect the power because he wants to he can and doesn't need to explain himself to me.

The main difference between my situation and yours I had been married before to my school sweetheart for years and knew it wasn't ever like it, I never annoyed my first DH like that, but of course over the years I questioned if it was me more and more... I would have run as fast as I could from this second marriage but I had no property to return to in my home country, equity went towards house in UK, uprooted three kids and moved here, and I just thought maybe he is simply far more "testosterony" and I'd learn to live with it, maybe swearing doesn't mean anything and I shouldn't take it to heart too much.
He was brilliant with my toddler DS. His parents were very loving towards each other(or more his DF to his DM) so I thought he'd have a good example, mine were divorced...He like any other human being has loads of good points, great at DIY, would give his life for family, we also had our own DC together and then another one, total surprise, on birth control.

By the birth of the second one we both were pretty miserable a lot of the time. Sex was one of the only times of some human connection and leaving everything else behind. The reason we stayed together was primarily my DSis who was the only one I confided in and who was explaining to me over the years how it was mostly me, and how I could become even softer and more loving and how my DH would not be able to respond to true love.
I was a lapsed Christian and resumed going to Church (Eastern Orthodox) where when I revealed my situation due to him hating Church and religion(the only place I actually revealed it, my friends also don't know, feels shameful and also scary to brand a potentially innocent man with an "abusive" tag) they shocked me by saying it was abusive and not something to fight for (as I thought every marriage was sacred even though we weren't blessed in Church etc) I still just feel if I knew it was the right thing to do, I would have stayed, but what if I'm damaging the kids, because I'm persevering primarily for the kids (3 at home still but soon will be 2, youngest only in reception) They love him, hate when he gets angry and shouty but forgive him quickly as children do. ...I nowadays mostly learnt not to feel too low about his outbursts but it's a lonely existence for me and for him, though I've sort of carved a parallel life for myself with my own friends hobbies etc as much as the finances allow...we are early/mid 40s...

I wanted to post on MN, but I knew there's always immediate chorus of LTB here even for minor things, and 9 out of 10 DHs are called abusive... where are the normal men, is anyone allowed any mistakes?.. and I was in the mindset of never giving up and keep trying to find a way to get along amicably, to have a normal conversation without it turning it into an argument. Your post really spoke to me because your DH seems to get annoyed by exactly the same things. He has a go at me, and then says you ask for a fight, you get a fight, and don't make me out to be some kind of ogre. ..

We also bought a house of our dreams just last year which needs a lot of work which we are in the process of doing up very slowly 🙁
We lived in pretty shitty places on an extremely tight budget for years to be able to buy a lovely house and I'm gutted about having to say good bye to it if we divorce. Though I'm worried for the kids more than anything....

Just wanted to add, though I did like a victim for years when living with DH, I long don't feel like it, I feel sorry for him, being so negative, short tempered and loathing so much of what constitutes normal human life, it's like living in your own personal hell bubble.
However it's impossible to completely disconnect from it esp when it comes to the kids, having to take decisions about the future where we don't agree etc
So I don't feel abused at all and to be honest DH is not a manipulator at all, he's just continuously frustrated and critical (like his DM, but she got better with age and also she doesn't have his amounts of testosterone) I still feel that I love him and if he could only not flare up for stupid reasons and not be so tightly coiled we could have a happy enough co-existence, not sure if it would be a real marriage though ...

@KatieRobin,

I am so sorry for your loss,

But with not having kids together really you are in much better position to start a new life, whether I divorce or not I can't have a clean break, we are tied through our kids for life...
And you haven't wasted 15 years of your life, at least you know for sure what to avoid and you are so patient now you'd be a great find for any man without inferiority complexes.
My SIL through first marriage, very religious, didn't have a relationship till her first marriage at 40, got pregnant (without IVF!) and had a baby at 42-43. Married someone really really rich too 😃, they have staff! And that's with her looking and behaving kind of peculiar through her religion and being on her own till 40. He's also religious and was never married before.
All sort of people meet and marry at all sorts of ages, don't worry about the future, it won't change anything except stressing you out, make plans to start your new life and start working on it one day at a time.
I'm kind of excited for your future. :)

How are you doing?
You don’t need anybody else to validate how much hard work you have put in to your relationship - you know! You don’t need anybody else to validate that this isn’t acceptable - you know, deep down, that this is not a loving, equal, caring relationship. That is what you deserve.
I was with my exH for fifteen years before I accepted he didn’t care, I walked away, had five years on my own peacefully and then met my lovely husband (who actually only lived a mile away!). Life is too short not to be valued in your own home. I really hope you keep rediscovering your strength.
Btw, my mother was incredibly cold and it leaves an imprint - but you DO have worth and are worth being loved.

We also bought a house of our dreams just last year ... I'm gutted about having to say good bye to it if we divorce. Though I'm worried for the kids more than anything....

@Cassandrainthenight...... So much of what you wrote resonates with my own story. Except my husband was detached much of the time, and his preferred punishment was stonewalling and the silent treatment.

Three times I came close to leaving. The first time the children were little and I was scared of going it alone; plus he was very attached to our DC and he might have fought me for custody. The second time we had recently emigrated and I was stuck. The 3rd time I did leave - and he started a full-blown and intense process of hoovering me back in. I really thought he had changed! Sigh - that lasted about 18 months... Then he had an affair, and I was so devastated and distraught that I didn't know which side was up.

Reader, I did leave him at the end. It's rarely too late and I am very happy and excited about my future! So to anyone who is struggling with a husband who is abusive and/or makes you unhappy: realise that this is who he is, and he will never change. Take note of his actions, not his words. Value yourself and your legitimate needs. And be brave!

Apologies if I've already posted this, but it bears repeating:

“The key is in learning how to live a healthy, satisfying, and serene life without being dependent on another person for happiness.”
― Robin Norwood, Women Who Love Too Much

@FlowerArranger,

I assume your children left home by the time you left? How did they take it anyway? Do you wish you did it successfully earlier or you wouldn't have been ready?

Because I tried to, I told the elder ones (who left home) we were separating to start with a few months ago and they were so happy for me, and even my mum was so relieved (and she used to think it's better to be with any husband than no husband and did her best to push me into this marriage, with good intentions). But our younger ones would be devastated.
I found (by accident) DD8 wrote in a notebook which she was using as a semi-diary "I'm so scared Mum and Dad might divorce"

I definitely don't rely on another person for happiness, that's why I manage to be happy most of the time in spite of my home life being so miserable so often...I did definitely rush into this second marriage way too soon,mostly because was DH was so great with my youngest at the time when his biological dad couldn't care less, and also because I needed to get away so moving to another country seemed like a good idea (though we met and lived initially in my country).

@KatieRobin sorry I don't mean to hijack your thread! Please keep updating...must be difficult now in lockdown, do you both work in the same industry?
I'm also a key worker (very part time), so will be working today and tomorrow...

Cassandra - I'm glad I stayed the first time. We both ended up making a concerted effort, and for a dozen years or so we we're quite happy. The second time would not have been feasible as we were stuck abroad (long story). I didn't tell our children of my aborted plans.

I do wish I'd left the 3rd time, or least had been more circumspect, instead of falling for his full-out effort to convince me that he had changed, we would move back to the UK, and everything would be different. My teenaged children's were supportive of both my choices, although one thought I was stupid to stay.

When he had the affair I should have left immediately, but I was a slow learner and once again fell for his hoovering. But I got there in the end. One of my adult sons is sad and still hopes that we will be a family again one day. The others either don't care or are supportive.

I'm probably not the best person to advise on leaving if you have young children. All I can say is that, given of your description of your husband's behaviour and it's effect on family life, it's no way to live. But perhaps start a thread of yoyr own about your ambivalence and specific worries.

@Icebear99 yes I know what you mean about not taking it seriously. I don’t think my husband takes it seriously that it upsets me. He doesn’t care and I don’t think he’d really care if I left him. I think he’d care if he thought I was taking the dogs though! It’s sad, I wish people could change.

@Cassandrainthenight don’t apologise, it’s fine. Thank you for sharing. Your husband does sound very like mine. What you said about getting aggravated when Doing things. Mine gets so annoyed if I ask for help with something. He makes such a big deal - I may have just asked him to reach down something from a high shelf. I just use a step ladder myself now. My husband also says things about living in a pig sty. Can’t understand this one as our house is clean and tidy. He doesn’t clean. He’s not bad round the house, but thinks emptying the dishwasher is cleaning. We are both key workers and work full time so there’s no strict cleaning rota but I like things to be clean and smell clean too.

Goodness it sounds so similar with him saying the questioning drives him mad. Mine says that too. He seems to think I’m targeting him or something. It’s so strange, as I would say it to anyone. It’s a reasonable thing to ask about the stuff in the freezer if power is being turned off. I would do the same and I would too get told I’m questioning him! Mine constantly says ‘i do know things you know!’ He says I make out he’s stupid.
I’m sorry you’ve been through so much.
I know what you mean when you say about branding an innocent man as abusive. I feel like my dh is a good man. He is kind and brave and strong and shows all of this daily with his job. However when it comes to me I feel pretty alone. He never has my back. Would never jump to my defence and can be downright mean to me. More than anything though I think it’s the lack of care. I get the impression he genuinely could not care less about me. That hurts so much. To mean so little to someone who you’ve given so much to. I often wish he would just be happy too. I wish he wouldn’t spoil moments. Sometimes I feel like shouting ‘just shut up, stop moaning, stop being moody and just enjoy what you’ve got!’ Are you still with dh?
Your sister sounds like she’s got a happy ending. She’s very lucky.

Hi @BiblioX, I’m doing ok thanks for asking. I can feel myself softening to the situation already though. I am not good at holding grudges - I know this isn’t a grudge and it is me saying what is and what is not acceptable- I guess i just let things go too easily and always try to move forward, brushing things under the carpet and then am upset that they’re no different a few weeks from now. I just want things to be balanced and nice and to not have to think about starting over. Feel annoyed at him that he’s ruined our lives by being a miserable horrible person. You’re right about the coldness from a mother leaving an imprint. How do you get over that? I’m just realising that it’s caused me to be a people pleaser and to question if I even know myself as all I’ve ever done is try to make others happy

I’m definitely a people pleaser! I’m terrified of conflict, still scared of a mother who passed away years ago. I understand the brushing things under the carpet...my in-laws were shocked when I left ex as I’d just put on a brave face for years but when he was cold when I suffered an awful sudden bereavement it made me come fully to my senses. It was scary, I still miss my old home sometimes, and I miss what could-have-been but it never actually-was!
Maybe consider counselling to work through issues with family from childhood? It helps to be aware of them.

What you’re saying sounds so similar @bibliox. You’ve come out the other side. I think on need to work on myself.

It’s never too late KatieRobin, you can do what is really right for you.

There are some great web resources. Try googling daughters of narcissistic mothers.

Also codependency.

ACT therapy is good. You can do it online.

I think one of the big things is to realise that being "too nice" is a lie you tell yourself about yourself. It is horrible but liberating if you can recognise you are terrified of someone being in a grump in front of you so you'll let them do literally anything. It's not you being too nice or too kind. Decide what is right and wrong. React accordingly. Excuses and lies you tell yourself about motivation don't make wrongs into rights.

@FlowerArranger

realise that this is who he is, and he will never change. Take note of his actions, not his words. Value yourself and your legitimate needs. And be brave!

Absolutely wise words indeed.