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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Is it all me?

209 replies

KatieRobin · 29/03/2020 16:23

I know there are far more important things going on in the world, so apologies as this may seem trivial. This is also my first post. After some advice. Have been with my husband for so long now I just don’t know what’s normal. DH is always grumpy. Never wants to talk. Never ever wants to have a back and forth conversation. Just a fun conversation.
Went out to walk our 2 dogs. Were out for 30 minutes and managed to somehow annoy him. Everything I say is wrong. Started saying just casually I wondered what work was going to be like next week. We are both key workers. Got the response of ‘ I don’t know’ I should have just stopped trying to make conversation, guess I was just desperate for some kind of chit chat. Then started saying about what unprecedented times we are living in. He said no it isn’t what about swine flu and aids. I said yes but they didn’t cause a lockdown. He starts getting angry. I don’t know why, maybe because I disagreed. I like normal conversations- like conversations I have with other people where you can have back and forths- you don’t always have to agree in the conversation and that’s fine. If I don’t agree he says I’m questioning him and starts saying that he’s not stupid and that he does know stuff. I just shut up. We walk in silence. When he put the poo bags in the poo bin I thought he’d touched it with his hand and said to be careful about touching it ( due to Covid -19 etc ) he started seething through his teeth saying he’d touched it with his elbow and that he’s not completely stupid, that he does know stuff and that I was really f@#ing pushing him. Then he started raising his voice saying which way are we going now. I just felt so sad that I can’t say a thing, not a thing that creates a normal conversation and the fact that he started saying I was pushing him ( he says this a lot ) I could feel tears in my eyes. I asked how I’m pushing him. He said ‘it’s you, it’s f@%ing you always questioning me’ I said I didn’t think I did at all. I just wanted a nice walk. He just kept banging on that it’s all me and that I treat him like he’s stupid. He even said something like ‘ I don’t go into work dribbling you know. I do know things’ I just don’t understand what I do wrong all the time to deserve to be spoken to like this. I’m in tears as he makes me feel so unloved. Is it me? I just don’t know anymore.

OP posts:
KatieRobin · 29/03/2020 19:16

*your advice even

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KatieRobin · 29/03/2020 19:17

I think I still think it can be good @PussGirl. Stupid I know

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category12 · 29/03/2020 19:21

It can't because he's the one who has to change, and you can't make someone else change.

It might be that if you were prepared to leave him and he knew it, that he might wake up and realise what he's got - but at present he treats you like absolute shit on his shoe and you just take it, so he has no respect for you and continues. He needs a massive kick up the arse if he's going to change, and you have find the strength to deliver that.

HollowTalk · 29/03/2020 19:27

There's a saying, "Street angel, house devil." Although that usually refers to a man who's violent at home, it doesn't have to mean that. It just means someone who shows one side of themselves to other people and a completely different (and horrible) side to their family. It's odd it's never the other way around!

What are your options? Do you work? Is your home rented or on a mortgage? Are you married? Do you have children? If so, how is he with them?

KatieRobin · 29/03/2020 19:28

I don’t understand how I got here. I don’t recognise myself. In my head I’d never stand for this, but in reality I’ve been accepting it for years. Not wanting to make a fuss. Making out like it’s not a big deal and brushing it under the carpet. Now I’m stuck between a rock and a hard place.
Starting to feel frustrated now - like why does he have to be like this?! Why can’t he just be nice? I don’t want to have to deal with the fallout of his crap behaviour on my life.

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KatieRobin · 29/03/2020 19:37

We would have to sell the house - mortgaged. Don’t think the market is going to get back on its feet for quite some time. We both work FT. He is mr nice guy to everyone but me. Not even like a fake mr nice guy. Like he is genuinely nice to them and takes a genuine interest in people. I’d probably be better off as his friend! I’d get treated better! He seems to just dislike me. That’s why I thought it must be me

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Weirdomagnet · 29/03/2020 19:38

@KatieRobin
Lots of great advice and support on here, which I echo. Really feel for you 🌻🌻🌻

Weirdomagnet · 29/03/2020 19:39

I also fully endorse what @category12 said!!😀

KatieRobin · 29/03/2020 19:39

Thank you @wierdomagnet. I’ve never posted before and it has been a sanity saver tonight!

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Weirdomagnet · 29/03/2020 19:55

@KatieRobin
I'm glad you did- you can't go on a moment longer believing this is "you". It really is him.

I've been there (not quite the same circumstances) but I really do understand the loneliness, and absolutely guarantee you'll never feel worse on your own than you do living this life with him. (You'll feel way, way better). The only way is up from there- you will recognise yourself again. You owe that to yourself, and I hope (a little more than I'd have expected from reading a post on mumsnet!) that you find the strength to lift yourself out of there. X

ChorleyFMcominginyourears · 29/03/2020 20:07

Start treating him the same as he treats you, if he says anything bloody tell him that you've decided to treat people how youre treated and that if he doesnt like it maybe he should think how youve been feeling all these years!

KatieRobin · 29/03/2020 20:15

I have actually tried that. He gets agitated and I say this is how you treat me. He says ‘two wrongs don’t make a right’ and somehow makes me out to be the bad person. I don’t know how it always gets turned on me?? Maybe it’s because he cares less.

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EllenOlenska · 29/03/2020 20:18

You're welcome OP. A lot of what I'd say next has already been said and I echo @category12 in that it can't because he is the one that needs to change.
You cannot talk it through because he will not admit there is anything wrong in the first place, it will be all you. He will not engage, validate or rise to anything you say about his behaviour and if he does it will be to deflect and turn it on you, as he does already.
I feel for you too. I hope you can gain some clarity by reaching out to someone in real life.

Though I stress, all you have said is valid, do not let anyone tell you otherwise based on their perception of their fleeting glimpses of him outside of your home or however close they are for that matter. I hope that made sense.Flowers

Techway · 29/03/2020 20:42

I recommend you read "the emotionally abusive relationship", Patricia Evan's.

Abuse as you are experiencing is not rational, think of the school bully, who goes to school and picks on someone. The victim hasn't cause the bullying.

He is the issue, he will be nice to others so that he maintains his image but he has to vent his anger at you, because you are close and due to your desire to stay in the marriage so will tolerate it. His behaviour is likely to escalate either because you stand up to him or he needs to be nastier to get the same relief.

What was his childhood like? This type of behaviour is often a result of abuse in childhood. It is why women are advised to leave, especially if there are children, as it's the only way to break the cycle so this isn't "inherited" throughout the generations.

Can he change? Unfortunately it seems most do not change as it is part of his personality.
Look up narcissistic traits especially covert. Also it will help if you understand DARVO, deny, attack, reverse, victim offender.

KatieRobin · 30/03/2020 08:59

Thank you @Sparklfairy. that’s it, I can’t talk up because I cause an argument, but if I don’t I feel I am being oppressed. Why can’t we just have a normal conversation? I often wonder what I’ve done for someone to dislike me so much?

I stupidly tried to talk to him last night. He disdainfully told me to stop crying and it somehow got turned around to the bathroom being a mess and I should tidy it. I was just thinking wtf has that got to do with anything? He walked off into the kitchen. I was trying to wait for him to leave the kitchen so that I could go in to get some water as by this time I had a headache from crying. He put his arms out to try to hug me. Obviously I did not feel like hugging him. He then gets snappy saying ‘well I’ve tried’ and walks off.

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KatieRobin · 30/03/2020 09:06

Thanks @Techway I will take a look at the book. For a long while I’ve thought his behaviour is not right. Never wanting to be around me, making our lives more and more separate and talking to me so badly. I don’t know if he is narcissistic or insecure. His childhood wasn’t abusive as far as I know, not by his parents. He’s fairly close to them. Maybe he’s just not meant to be married. He’s never really been emotionally available, but he sort of tricked me into thinking he was. That may sound strange, but I’ve often questioned how I got here as I just couldn’t see myself putting up with this years ago or at the beginning. Looking back over cards and letters from the start he was nice. I’m wondering was it fake? Did I change him into this? It’s just me that gets this behaviour. I know other people annoy him as he vents to me. I guess everyone gets annoyed by people though.

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Techway · 30/03/2020 10:41

@KatieRobin, you are describing exactly how I felt in my marriage. I was adored at the start, it felt as if we had a connection and he was emotionally available but looking back there were signs. The switch of his behaviour occurs not because of you but because of HIS fluctuating emotions.

You don't need to label him but this article by Elinor Greenberg PhD might help to shed light on what could be happening.

"Trying to satisfy a Narcissistic partner is similar to learning how to become a tightrope walker —a step to the left and you fall off and a step to the right and you fall off. There is a very narrow, almost impossible to balance on sweet spot where you are temporarily safe. But…you cannot stay still and every step forward presents you with the same exact problem. Everyone eventually falls off the wire.

Narcissists do not have stable inner self-esteem and need external validation to survive. They are walking their own tightrope too! When they are in an intimate relationship, every move their partner makes affects the Narcissist’s stability.

The Real Issue Is Validation
As Narcissists react to how their partner’s attitudes and behaviors affect their self-esteem, what feels validating can change very quickly. One moment they are feeling their self-esteem rise because they are chasing you and you are independent and they perceive you as just out of reach. “Getting” you to stop running and be “theirs” then feels like a big achievement. At that moment your independence is valued—but only because it temporarily makes “capturing” you more valuable to them as an up-regulator of their self-esteem.

Now the Narcissist is in a bind. If you stay independent and sometimes disagree with their opinions or do not do what they want, they feel disrespected by you. They feel devalued and get angry and will pick fights.

If you submit to them, they will again temporarily feel good and get another uptick to their self-esteem. But….if you now give in and become dependent, your value lessens for them as a status enhancer.

Submission = Lower in Status

Lower Status = Less Valuable

There is almost no way you can avoid being attacked by a Narcisstic partner. You have the best chance of surviving in the relationship by deciding where your boundaries need to be, not allowing yourself to be abused, and being realistic about your partner’s limitations.

Narcissists cannot feel pleased with themselves for very long. They certainly cannot give you the continuous love and approval that they cannot give themselves. You could jump through hoops of fire trying to please them and that, too, would not be enough to keep their interest and approval. You would be getting burnt for nothing"

KatieRobin · 30/03/2020 11:08

Wow @techway that is like reading my life!!! Thank you for posting that. It makes so much sense. It is strange as I have never thought of him as a narcissist- I wouldn’t say he’s overly confident. However, he definitely needs validation and this in itself has caused issues in our marriage as he would seek validation from others, even other women.Maybe everything is an ego boost to him.
I never feel he is interested in me, he doesn’t seem to care if I’m around or not. I don’t think he’d even care if I had an affair ( not that I would! ) He is not thoughtful or emotional. He resents me for just being me and being his wife. What a horrible situation.
There must be lots of people out there like him though - surely they can’t all be alone? Can success or harmony ever be found do you think? Or would it be a lifetime or me not counting and not feeling worth anything? Do you think it can get better?

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KatieRobin · 30/03/2020 11:15

Thanks @EllenOlenska that definitely made sense. I don’t know if people in rl would think I was overreacting- a lot of the time I think I’m overreacting. I feel silly - it’s not as if he is physically hurting me daily - I know others have it much worse. Makes me wonder if I’m making a fuss. Sometimes I think well all marriages have arguments. What is a normal marriage?

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Techway · 30/03/2020 12:09

ExH was covert which is in contrast to an overt type, such as Trump. Much harder to spot as they will be "normal" whilst you are in the positive cycle. No one would suspect Ex H of this behaviour as he is Mr Nice Guy and regulates his emotions well to outsiders. Ex H was married before and his explanation of the divorce made sense (married young, grew apart) but I now know his first Ex W suffered the same as me. His is now onto wife nos3, early stages but I know the pattern will be repeated.

Can they have harmony? No, they are not seeking mutuality, their intimate partners will always eventially be devalued. Ex H had counselling for a year but if anything it made life worse as it validated his anger towards me.

Most of these individuals cannot be alone, they need validation in the same way a diver needs an oxygen mask. If you indicate you will leave he is likely to seek someone else..often they are already lining up someone else as they cannot be alone...however the cycle will start again.

If this is your situation I feel for you. If you do leave you will not have closure, you will never feel understood, he will blame you and if he doesn't have a replacement source lined up then he will be vindictive in the separation. I only learnt of this after the separation so wasn't forewarned.

Very few people will understand your relationship. They will assume a "normal" marriage so advice will be based on usual conflict resolution strategies but that won't work with this type of spouse.

There are lots of resources on YouTube that might help you as well as books on the subject. It is estimated that narcissism affects 10-15% of the population so you are not alone in your experience.

KatieRobin · 30/03/2020 12:35

@techway thank you so much for all of the information and explanations.
I’m starting to think maybe I am in a losing battle and perhaps always have been. I’ve wasted 15 years of my life if that’s the case.
Do you mind me asking how long you were married and how long it took you to realise you needed out? How did you find the strength?
What you said about other people not understanding is all too true - I can imagine he’ll paint me out to be crazy and sensitive and hard work etc etc. I feel like screaming ‘I’ve tried I’ve tried so so bloody hard!! It’s impossible!!’ I think I come across as the aggro one sometimes or the upright one sometimes to others as I can sometimes feel on edge when we are out with friends / family as to what he’s going to say and I’ll always be the butt of the joke. Often on the way to his parents he’ll cause an argument in the car so I’ll be in tears and then have to pull myself together as we pull into theirs. He will stride off to their front door leaving me composing myself ... he will be all smiles and I’ll just be trying not to cry. Sometimes his sister has acknowledged that he can be a d@*ck’ but I think she means that in a bro / sis way and has no real idea.
You’re right, if I leave I will never have closure or validation of my reasons. Nobody will understand how lonely I’ve been or how much daily crap I put up with. Being ignored is not nice. Having no voice is not nice. Feeling like you’re nothing is not nice.
I’m going to look like I’m walking away from a marriage for nothing. Marriage is not meant to be easy is it.

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Techway · 30/03/2020 12:37

What is a normal marriage?

This isn't normal. I recall talking to a family member and she said very clearly, this isn't normal..sure couples will gripe and be stroppy at times but afterwards there is genuine reconciliation and some acknowledgement that the behaviour is wrong.
We had DC and one incident stood out. I asked a question, got a nasty defensive response from Ex H, dc walked into the room asked the exact same question and his demeanour changed. I realised then that 1) he had control over his responses 2),I wasn't asking something ridiculous and 3) I was been undeservably targeted.

Equally he could be nice so there was a Jekyll and Hyde character. It took me several years to leave however as I was hoping that he would get back to how he was...it is called intermittent reinforcement and keeps many people in relationships for longer than they should.

goldpartyhat · 30/03/2020 13:27

This is how it feels when the fog lifts and you actually realise it's not you, it's him. For years you've been made to feel stupid and irritating, and the outbursts are because of your stupidity. Suddenly realising you are being emotionally abused and manipulated is very liberating. You can step back and see them and their behaviour for what it is.

Do 'the freedom program' and read 'why does he do that' by Lundy. Your husband will be there. It opened my eyes

KatieRobin · 30/03/2020 14:33

I do feel like the fog is lifting, but I feel sad. I had hoped it was fixable.
He has not spoken to since last night.
Maybe this is not a normal marriage. The amount of times I’ve said to him ‘does everything I do annoy you?’ He stands firm that men are tired and he’s normal. He says men like their space.
Now I’m realising so many of the things he’s said and done over the years are just not ok and that he actually does not care.
Does anyone currently live with a narcissistic or is currently living a similar situation?
Has anyone sought therapy of anything to overcome this?
Is there light at the end of the tunnel?

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AttilaTheMeerkat · 30/03/2020 15:23

Its not you, its him. This is not how marriage should be at all; this is in no way a loving and mutually respectful marriage. His not speaking to you since last night is a further example of emotional abuse towards you.

It is not your fault he is like this and you did not make him this way.

You are with Mr Wrong and he has also ramped up the power and control from the early days of your relationship, let alone marriage. You've been tested throughout by him to see how much you would put up with from him. Sadly you either minimised this or actually did not recognise it for the controlling behaviour it was and is. There will be light at the end of the tunnel if you gather up all your courage here and make firm plans to leave your abuser. He cannot be fixed and indeed he feels he has done nothing wring here with regards to you. Such men too hate women, all of them. Look at his family background here too; what do you know about that?. I do not know if he is a narcissist in terms of personality but if he is a narcissist they do not do at all well in therapy and besides which he would likely need years of it. I also doubt very much he would ever attend any such sessions. It is also not possible to have a relationship with a narcissist.

What did you learn about relationships when you were growing up?. Did you see similar between your mum and dad?. What sort of an example did they show you?.

He will continue to systematically destroy you from the inside out as long as you remain with him. And what are you getting out of this relationship?. What is keeping you still with him and besides which would you want to remain in a house that holds such bad memories?. Are you really confusing your apparent love for him here with codependency?