"But we took you to Stately Homes" January 2020 onwards

[toomuchtooold]

It's January 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
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Oct 14 – Dec 14
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Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
May-August 2019
August-October 2019
November-December 2019

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

wineplease I struggle with the confrontation issue too. Personally I think you have to decide what you feel most comfortable with- even if there is little to no possibility of the relationship becoming a healthy one, you may feel better in the knowledge that you have given her a chance to reflect and change her ways. I know many on here will take a more hardline approach - likely with the benefit of experience that these people will never be able to see how they could have done wrong, such that a confrontation is pointless. Then again, if it helps to make you more comfortable in letting the relationship go, or imposing stricter boundaries, then there may be something to be said for it.

I’ve now just passed the one year anniversary of The Final Straw - isn’t it funny how we keep track of these things!? I haven’t spoken to my mother at all in that time and I have had very little contact with her, via text message only. I certainly won’t ever initiate any confrontation. But perhaps I will be tempted to say something if the opportunity ever arises. She seems to be prepared to just let me slip away over the horizon. But perhaps that’s because she doesn’t know how to reel me back in after the usual tactics (illness, medical emergencies, relationship breakdown) haven’t worked this time. It still saddens me hugely that she can just let me go. I have three children and it breaks my heart to think there could ever be a time when I don’t know where or how they are for months on end.

it breaks my heart to think there could ever be a time when I don’t know where or how they are for months on end
and mine too:(
but if they felt that they didnt want me to be in their lives I would respect that, I cant see myself insisting that someone who dislikes me has to pay homage to me regardless
that makes you a dictator for whom the people smile and wave because they fear the consequences.
I know some people enjoy being feared and more than they want to be liked, but they forget that as soon as the dictator weakens his subjects will hang him from the nearest lamppost

If any of you have the Sunday Times today there is an extract of Deborah Orr’s ‘Motherwell’ in the magazine. Some of the things in it are just extraordinarily familiar to me. I recommend it, if you can hunt it out.

@Herocomplex and others. Thanks for your replies. and thanks for saying to continue to share. It does really help and i wish I'd posted sooner.

I can completely see your point of view about confrontations, and would usually agree with you. but since reading the Susan Ford book, where she advises confrontation, I think its something I need to do. She writes advice on how to make it as positive an experience as possible and some neutral and non confrontational responses to use. She also suggests that its possible to the confrontation by letter. although she seems to favour in person; I've been trying to bring things up for months, in fact I posted my own thread nearly a year ago under a different user name and still haven't spoken to her. So I'm going down the letter route. I have written a letter and my husband is going to check it over for me later and to see if it can be toned down at all without loosing its message.

at first i felt like maybe I was just being nasty and should just get on with it but after posting here I have reaffirmed that I don't deserve the treatment I'm getting and that I don't have to put up with it. she's the one being unkind to me and i'm simply pointing out how her behaviour is affecting me and asking her to stop.

DH gone to the shop and I've asked him to pick a copy of the Times

You must absolutely do what you feel is right for you yestea

Just be aware of what you are hoping for. Would you like her to change how she behaves? Or acknowledge that she’s treated you unkindly? It may be that she does, and your relationship can be repaired. But keep in mind that if she is a narcissist then your outcome might be quite different. Think about how you’ll deal with the worst outcome, just so it doesn’t come as a shock.

yesteaandawineplease

re your comments that I have separated out:-

"at first i felt like maybe I was just being nasty and should just get on with it but after posting here I have reaffirmed that I don't deserve the treatment I'm getting and that I don't have to put up with it".

Correct. Withdraw completely from your mother, after all you would not tolerate this from a friend.

"she's the one being unkind to me and i'm simply pointing out how her behaviour is affecting me and asking her to stop".

I would think long and hard before doing anything like this and I would urge you not to confront her in the above manner. She knows how her behaviour affects you, she does not care. You could try this in a normal emotionally healthy family but your family of origin, in particular your mother, is not emotionally healthy. She is not going to stop simply because you are asking her to do so. Regardless of how nicely and carefully worded this is put to her, she will in all likelihood turn on you viciously and will see what you are saying as an attack on her. Toxic people like your mother like both to attack and or have the last word. It will not go well for you.

The only way you will get any peace with regards to your mother is to stop putting yourself in front of her or otherwise in her line of fire.

This is a very old MN thread on this very subject. It is worth spending some of your time reading it;-

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/2364068-Has-anyone-confronted-their-toxic-parents-as-Susan-Forward-recommends

She does also state in her book that confrontation should not be attempted where there has been any violence.

Thanks for sharing that thread.

What strikes me is the clear way the responses are written, and the pain that all those words convey.

So much of what is said on here strikes a chord with me. I’ve been really struggling with my own situation recently. I’m not sure what it is that is triggering it. It might be my own DD getting to an age I remember being or it might be feeling like I am surrounded by people who have support when I have none.

I’ve recently closed all of my social media accounts and I just couldn’t stand looking at posts of families out having a lovely time with granny and grandad or grandparents gushing about what a special time of year it is and how they love having their children and grandchildren round. It sounds so bitter and I was feeling very envious and resentful which I know is ludicrous. It just gets to me so much sometimes that I don’t have that.

My mother, I have discovered from this thread is a covert narcissist who makes herself the victim and spends her life falling out with people who don’t see things her way. My father got fed up with her pretty quickly and left when we were very young, marrying a woman who treated us as a huge inconvenience to her life. She now tries to rewrite history and make us out to be close with her children whilst we have had to sit and watch them have all the things we never had... materially and emotionally. It’s happening all over again now that one of her children has had a child and we have to watch that grandchild get fawned over whilst the grandchildren produced by my sibling and I get sidelined or overlooked.

I’ve married a wonderful DH who I am very lucky to have, he supports me and listens to me when I struggle with all this and he is a great father to our DD. He himself comes from a difficult family dynamic. His DM, sibling and grandparents treat him like the black sheep whilst they fawn over his sibling’s child and yet again, sideline/overlook our own.

I feel we have shit parents all around us. No one gives us any emotional support or cares about us. We have both gone through redundancy in recent years yet no one has even asked if we are managing. They just turn a blind eye. We manage childcare between us so that limits work options somewhat though we want our child to come first and not feel like the inconvenience we were both made to feel growing up.

So much on here makes so much sense, sorry for the lengthy post. It helps to get it out to someone who will read this and understand, not look at me with a blank expressions before saying how lucky they are to not have experienced any of this.

On a practical side, does anyone have any advice on how not to let this resentment take over? I don’t want to spend my life wishing it was different. I can’t change it, I want to find a way to accept it, but having my own child has made that really difficult as I just can’t imagine treating my child this way.

Hi @Gredd

Sounds miserable. Not your fault, or problem. But I recognise that bloody massive burden it is. There are many, many families that are dysfunctional, cold, abusive, unloving. We’re all drawn to look at the shiny loving ones, and see what’s missing.

There no magic bullet for acceptance or peace. There is talking, reading, understanding and making yourself a stronger person, rejecting the idea of yourself that ‘they’ gave you and deciding for yourself what you are. Some days are hard. Some are better.

It’s easier if they have no place in your life, so there are no expectations of calls, visits, occasions. Then they’re held in suspended animation but they can do very little more.

Whst about your sibling? Anything you can build there?

Hi Gredd
any advice on how not to let this resentment take over
I'm not sure, I have a hard time with my anger, it pisses me off that the parent 'lives rent free in my head'
Blocking them on all channels helps quite a lot

Thanks @herocomplex, you are right of course. If there was a magic solution we would all be using it.

My sibling is NC with my mother and has been for some time. I seemed to get trapped off the back of that situation. I was at that time, then living alone with my mother and she effectively had a bit of a breakdown when this happened. I was a teenager myself then and stuck between them, it was awful and at the time I just wanted them to fix it. Though I now see it’s better for them to keep things as they are. I often see my life as being easier if I were to go NC. Though my mother being the way she is has isolated herself more and more over the years and I am one of 2, possibly 3 people who she sees. All her own doing. She cuts of her nose to spite her face regularly and “won’t be told” anything.

When my daughter was born she appeared to be making a huge effort. I was drawn to the thought that she was trying to make up for past mistakes but the effort didn’t last long and the mask slipped back to being the true version of herself that she is.

We don’t have a great relationship, I view us having a relationship by default rather than by design. My brother was always the golden child but used to getting his way he took no hesitation in walking away when she didn’t bend to his will. I was always the one who got in trouble, paid the price for him misbehaving (I shouldn’t have allowed him to do x or y). My mother has admitted (full of drink of course) that she punished me for things he did and treated me unfairly. My brother also admits he played this to his advantage and would purposefully set me up to get into trouble. He was a child and saw it as a game. I got some very real punishments during this time, something he bitterly regrets and has apologised for. I don’t hold him responsible, he was a child and was getting away with murder, he was actually rewarded for behaving this way in my eyes. We get in well now, though there is something still there. Whether it be guilt, remorse or memories of a bad time that hangs in the air.

I recently had a confrontation with my mother who decided to turn a family occasion around and make it about her. I lost my temper as what she did upset my daughter. She was told in no uncertain terms that I will not allow her to behave that way or let my daughter down like she did me.

I think I shocked her, I am always the peacemaker and try to make things right but this time I wasn’t going to be the good guy. I told her that her behaviour wasn’t acceptable and if she wanted to carry on she could do so without us being in her life. She tried to twist things as she would have done years ago and told me I was punishing her by threatening to take her grandchild from her.

I told her it’s not a threat, it’s what I see as being acceptable and if she can’t behave in an acceptable way then I don’t want my child around her. My feelings are about how I feel, not about how they make her feel and if she sees it as punishment then maybe she should consider how her behaviour makes others feel.

She’s been on her best behaviour since, though I won’t hold my breath that it will last. I had never seen her as a narcissist before reading about covert narcissist on here.

My mil is a narcissist, everything is about how it looks to the outside world. She’ll invite us to a meal and ignore us but put a photo up on Facebook to show “the whole family out to dinner”. She is more worried about what other people think thank how people feel. She thinks her daughter is wonderful and goes on about how she is just like her with pride. I thought this was a narcissist, but I now can see my mum has different traits that I never realised where narcissist, I always just saw them as nasty.

I am incredibly grateful for my DH and my DD. I just want her to grow up feeling loved and cared for. I am sad she won’t have loving relationships with her grandparents. None of them seem that interested, though I do remind myself that this is a good thing! The less she is around these people the better.

I suppose it just feels like there is something wrong with you... when all the people around you treat you this way, it’s hard not to think you are the problem.

Thank you for listening, it means so much to be heard by those who understand these dynamics

@Ulterego I can totally relate to the anger.

Makes me feel like someone I am not. Living rent free in your head is a good way to put it. We want them kicked out

I think some of it is them being just too dysfunctional to cope with modern life, they sense that we can think ahead of them and they act out to bring us back under control.
Nothing will make them into people who are on our wavelength, if they are costing you too much CUT LOOSE
If you carry on feeding them they will grow stronger and you will grow weaker.
We want them kicked out
Yes! There must be an effective eviction proceedure?

@Gredd you’re in the last bit of the FOG, thinking that it must be you, that if you were different this wouldn’t be happening.

It’s not accurate, you’ve been dealt a bad hand. I’m guessing you and DH recognised something in each other maybe?

Your brother is toxic by the way, he’s enabled your abuse by your mother. He’s made some little concessions in admitting he was wrong but did it cost him anything to do that? You’re not useful to him anymore.

I wouldn’t go near your sister unless you’re NC with your mother and brother. She’s chosen to protect herself, and her boundary. But maybe it’s time to think about where your own boundaries could be.

I think you’re in a really miserable place right now, you can see it all for what it is. You can’t change them, only how you deal with them.

@AttilaTheMeerkat thanks for sharing that thread. that's exactly what I was looking for.

absoluetly I need to think about the possible (likely) fall out from a confrontation if I go ahead. I was focusing on the possible positive outcome. but you're right it is more likely that it will be negative. what I'm hoping to get from a confrontation is to find a way forward. can the relationship be repaired or will Low/no contact be the best way. I'm finding it difficult distancing myself rather suddenly and not saying anything. I have been reading the out of the fog website this afternoon and it has some good tips.

hi @Gredd

I just started posting and relate to a lot or what you say.

have you looked at any of the resources posted in OP?

you might want to look into how grief plays a role in acceptance and moving on. you have to grieve the relationship you wanted/hoped for in order to reach acceptance.

I've found the little councilling I've had to be useful.

yestea you’ll be finding it really difficult because you’ve been brought up to please everyone else, so the feeling of doing something that you know will bring disharmony is really quite terrifying. Putting yourself and your own needs first, instead of compromising, is really hard.

Thanks all for your words!

@Ulterego you are right, it’s so messed up that the people who put us in these positions keep us there out of conditioning, it’s so ingrained. I think I can’t walk away but of course that’s what you are conditioned to believe.

@Herocomplex that’s interesting what you say. Yes, I definitely think me and DH saw something in eachother. Of course it took years to unravel but we have a lot more in common than I first thought when we met. The comment about my brother has given me a lot to think about. After going NC he entered into years of addiction, I had thought his apology was part of his healing, which I’m sure it was, though you make a good point that it didn’t cost him anything.

I seem to have had a few years of arguments with certain toxic family members, mainly because I am asserting my boundaries and they don’t like it. They are learning that I am saying no when it doesn’t work for me and I mean it. It has taken me a long time to get here but I am holding firm.

The reaction is extreme when I don’t give them what they want... for years it has been “Ask Gredd, she’ll do it” and I would. As that’s the role I’ve been trained in my whole life, to put everyone before me. It’s been a process saying no and sticking to it but the message is very slowly getting through.

@yesteaandawineplease so much of your post rings true with me also. The comments about feeling you owe your mother, just because she has been supportive. My mum can do 1 nice thing for me and I feel like I need to run around after her to repay her. This should really be the norm and not something you notice but it’s like a transaction and as it’s so rare it becomes an even bigger event.

I’ve read the FOG website with interest and I’ve read Toxic Parents. So much of it just clicks. I am also looking into therapy. I had counselling a few years ago but I didn’t feel it helped, looking back, I think the type of counselling wasn’t the right fit for me so I’m doing a bit more research this time.

I want to move on from this, I know I can’t change them. I want to find a way to handle this in a way that will bring me peace and allow me to be a good mother to my child. Rather than being stuck in the past or worrying about the actions of people which I cannot change.

People who can break the cycle and recognise what good and bad parenting looks like can usually get it right with their own children. Being empathetic, recognising what patterns might be repeating and stopping them, and just loving them as individuals is probably enough.

I really valued the Phillipa Perry book about parenting ‘The Book You Wish Your Parents Had Read’, some people have found it a bit painful though, so I’m not sure it’s for everyone.

The problem comes when our DC’s see us changing ourselves to accommodate our parents bad behaviour, it makes them think appeasing people to keep the peace is acceptable. I feel really upset that I did that for so long.

Interesting Prof. Tanya Byron column in the Times today, I can’t seem to share it here at the moment. Woman in her 50’s with really dreadful childhood, very abusive parents experiencing trauma because of the birth of her grandchild. TB recommended therapy, as you would expect, including EMDR. She suggested that you could stop being triggered.

So I think there is hope that you can come to terms with your past? Finding good therapy and affording it are another matter though.

This is a brilliant read - basically that you need a therapist that “re-parents” you in the session. I agree that finding the money is hard - but it’s an amazing return on investment not just in yourself but also in the relationships that surround you and the generations to come. Depending on the level of neglect/abuse some issues can be turned around in a few months. It’s also about priorities - maybe forgoing some treats temporarily (often they are related to soothing the hurt - wine, food, anyone?) and focusing on (hopefully) a once in a lifetime fix is worth while. It’s certainly cheaper than divorce.....

www.theguardian.com/science/2020/jan/10/psychotherapy-childhood-mental-health

I’ve had CBT in the past through the NHS and found it a massive help, it was through those sessions I learned that my family was a large part of the problem with regards to my mental health issues. The word the therapist used was ‘over bearing’ which is probably being kind. But it was like a light bulb going on in my head.

I’d love more therapy as that only scratched the surface, but it’s so expensive I can’t justify the cost at the moment.

That was a good read Gutterton thank you for sharing it.
Talking about attachment there is a great psychologist called Donald Winnicott who wrote about the ‘good enough mother’ which might be helpful for those of you worrying about how you parent your own children.