"But we took you to Stately Homes" January 2020 onwards

[toomuchtooold]

It's January 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
May-August 2019
August-October 2019
November-December 2019

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

as his grandfather recently died and they’ve reacted by getting worse
he perhaps occupied the position of 'chief narcissist' and now they are all vying for his crown?
Ultimately the solution seems to nearly always come down to NC and our discussions here are to do with how to reach the place where we feel able to do that?
( there is always the path of 'stay in touch and fuck them over just like they fucked you over' )

@Gutterton I would say minimal contact; birthday and Christmas cards for the last year - this coming Sunday is the anniversary of the last straw. I was contemplating setting out my boundaries in writing this past Christmas, but the wise advice on this thread was not to re-engage with them (parents and sister).

I'm with you on that Penelope, setting out your boundaries would probably be received as an invitation to destroy said boundaries, maintaining no contact sends a clear message that your boundaries are insurmountable there are no pathways by which you can be reached.
When you don't respond at all you turn them into supplicants lingering forlornly on the wrong side of the portcullis, out in the cold while you are safe and warm inside your castle, impervious as they wail into the uncaring wind
In an attempt to make you engage with them they will exhaust all their strategies until they have completely revealed their entire hand, each move they make further disempowers them.
The only way they can get any purchase is by resorting to illegal measures and that would be too risky for most people's tastes.

@Tara336 it sounds like your mother doesn't affect your daughter in the way she does you - that's not surprising, your daughter has grown up in a loving, supportive household where she was allowed to develop healthy boundaries so she doesn't feel responsible for your mother's behaviour in the way you do and she doesn't experience that spiral of fear and toxic guilt whenever your mother goes off on one. She can see her for what she is, which is a ridiculous, attention seeking fool. Don't worry about your daughter. If your mother does make a scene at her wedding, it won't ruin it for your daughter in the way it would for you.

And about your civil partnership... why does your mother know you are getting civil partnered? I hope she doesn't know where and when, and if she does, I would suggest changing the time and place (and keeping quiet about that). You're anxious about your civil partnership, anxious about getting married, anxious about committing to giving up your flat... I believe that if you were to stop contact with your mother, a hell of a lot of that anxiety would go away. You wouldn't have to make an effort to sort of officially go NC - you could just stop phoning her. I don't know if this is anything you'll identify with but when I first considered going NC with my mother, I felt like I was being lazy - because outside of anything about the deeper relationship issus i.e. all the nasty shit she kept doing to me and my kids I just found her exhausting to interact with on a day to day basis. I urge you, if you feel that exhaustion, to just give in to it and stop contacting her. Doesn't have to be forever. Will she be pissed off? Maybe, but that isn't your problem! And also, if you're not phoning her, you won't be able to hear how pissed off she is at you! The less interaction you have with her, the less information she will have about your life, and the fewer opportunities she will have to fuck it up. We get so used to thinking of our parents' mental state as something that we have to manage, a sort of plate we have to keep spinning or else, eventually, suffer the consequences. But you are an adult, you're out of her house, you don't have to suffer the consequences of her bad moods any more. You don't have to keep her on an even keel. You just have to make sure that when she blows up, you're far away from it.

@toomuchtooold everything you say rings true, I do feel responsible, I have to watch what I say, how I say it and then I’m on edge if I think she’s pissed off. I disagreed with something on the phone the other day, she was calling someone two faced when I don’t feel they are and she got agitated and cut the call off and put the phone down on me. I’m dreading speaking to her again as she will either be fine or will make it clear in the tone she uses she’s not happy with me yet again. My DD was upset when my DM started to contact her after the graduation debacle and was in tears as my DM was harassing her, questioning her as to why I was staying away, she knew why I was! I did say to my DD now imagine a whole lifetime of that and you will understand why I struggle. In the end I contacted my DM to get her off my DD back and not once has she ever referred to the graduation or apologised. I don’t think my DD has ever spoken to her about it either, we tiptoe around in case we upset her. My civil partnership isn’t booked yet, went to do it this morning and found out we either have that or a wedding (we thought we could also marry at a later date) so we are now thinking what we want to do, where and when

Toomuchtooold
Exhausting to deal with on a day-to-day basis 🤦🏼‍♀️
I remember this... every phone call with my parent felt like a wrestling match
Tara
She got agitated and cut the call off
She is such a dysfunctional disordered person that if someone one disagrees with her she can't handle it at all, think about this.... she is so challenging and threatened just by a difference of opinion that she has a meltdown.
She's just not fit for purpose! You shouldn't have to put up with all this shit, you are letting this deeply disordered and dysfunctional person who cannot cope with normal life... you are letting this person control you!
She's not fit to organise a drink of water, she should not be dominating your life.

Well done Tara, it sounds like you’ve made a small shift towards getting what you want?

My DM was complaining about someone in her village once, and I said ‘Oh mum, that’s not like you to be so unkind, are you ok?’ (Not true, she was critical most if the time) The look on her face was amazing, it was like a mask had slipped as she quickly tried to work out if she wanted to be saintly or carry on with her demolition job. She just did a quick conversation change, but it rattled her.

I think that’s why they up the ante all the time, making personal and hurtful remarks so you’re just cowed into being a quiet listener.

Tara, first of all, hugs. Second - how about having the wedding but not telling your mother about it? You don't have to tell her you know. You can have the dress and the flowers and the make up and the lovely day with people you love and who love you - and never have to mention it to your mother. You don't owe her anything.

@Herocomplex we have decided to go ahead and marry in secret, we always planned to marry but because civil partnership seemed ideal and we could do it low key that was the plan, we thought we could then marry at a later date but had misunderstood the rules (same sex couples can convert civil partnership to marriage as it previously wasn’t available to them). We are going to work out when and where in the next week or so with just DD and her BF as witnesses. I have been thinking a lot about what has been explained about boundaries and I can see that there are none.

When I look back on things parents have said and done over the years I can see it ie inviting exh to Christmas dinner the year I left him and excluding me (they think sun shines out of his arse), involving exh in my DF cancer treatment this year having him take turns in collecting and dropping off for radiotherapy, telling my DD I was mentally ill and had bi polar (I’m not and don’t) and was refusing to see a doctor (she was 14 and came home in tears), taking my DD somewhere as a baby I specifically asked them not too.... the list goes on.

Deliberately making a pet of your ex-husband to make you feel uncomfortable, that's pretty low isnt it ☹️
As is often remarked here 'would you accept that behaviour from a non family member?'
hell to the no!
It could be argued that we should give extra latitude to family members but that cuts both ways, we can only be extra nice to them if they have been extra nice to us
clearly they have reserved 'special treatment' for us .....especially bad treatment☹️
they should expect the same in return

Yesterday my DM told me that she ‘needed’ me (the exact words) to go shopping with her today as she’s going to a wedding soon and needs a pair of shoes to go with her dress.

Here is the thing though she didn’t ask, it was pretty much a command. Not a ‘Please can you come shopping with me as I need some advice on what shoes to buy’, no I need you to do something for me. That’s what she always does ‘ I need you to give me a lift’, ‘I need you to look after the dog’. Always a command. Furthermore, she won’t take a blind bit of notice of what I say and just buy what she likes anyway, so what does she ‘need’ me there for?

I can honestly say I’ve never ‘needed’ anyone with me when buying an outfit. In fact I actually prefer it. I know for a fact she will get all huffy if I suggest shoes different to the ones she likes.

Dear god give me strength!

You’re her lady-in-waiting Manon so she can tell everyone her daughter went shopping with her. You’re there to reflect her back to herself.

Save yourself some time and heartache and be unavailable.

Manon
You could respond to her as if she had phrased it as a request, eg 'thanks for the offer but I don't fancy it/I'm not available, I hope you have a lovely time and find some nice shoes'
And then carry on ignoring what she actually says but responding as if she said what you would like her to have said.
After all isn't that what they do to us?

Tara did you look at the Out of The Fog website? It’s very helpful.

Herocomplex interesting you say in there to reflect her back to herself, she’s always loved telling everyone how I’m so like her. The truth is I’m actually sod all like her and if she really got to she’d know that.

She thinks I look loads like her, I do a bit I suppose but I’m fairer haired, have different coloured eyes and different body shape! I can still remember the look on her face when DSIL said she thought I looked more like my DF! She was horrified.

Manon
She may see you as a pale reflection of herself.... an inferior version of herself, or perhaps he sees you an homage to herself
Whatever the case it's all about her, she's the star of the show, everything must reflect her glory 🙄

hello!

I've been considering posting for a while and was looking for some thoughts and perhaps other people's experiences.

I've read Susan Ford's toxic parents book. I think I need to read it again as I find it hard to pin point exactly where my mother falls. but I'd describe her controing and negative while I was growing up. I often remember feeling sad, guilty or ashamed. now she's not controlling, although I think she'd like to be, but she's extremely negative, no boundaries and is becoming very needy.

I feel like her heart is in the right place and she'll be devasted when I finally confront her. she likes to think she's helping and supportive. and she has often provided practical help in the past (financially when I was young and child care or house help more recently) she's so critical and negative to be around I can't bear to speak to her at the moment.

it seems petty but it's like a negative narrative on my life... kids have too many clothes, I've got too much washing, I need to do more housework in the evening, am I coping without a cleaner at the moment, when am I going to stop breastfeeding, eldest was cheeky to her, have I spoken to my siblings and on and on and on. I stopped telling her things about my life a long time ago but she still manages to find things to comment on. I was able to ignore it for a long time but it's really getting to be at the moment.

i feel like I'm being mean and maybe I view her more negatively than she deserves because we witnessed a lot of domestic abuse growing up. she's gotten worse again recently due to splitting up with her partner.

would love to hear your thoughts and experiences on your confrontations. sorry for typos. on my phone with a stress headache.

Hi yesteaandwineplease

If anyone's mean here its your mother, not you.

Its not your fault your mother is like this and you did not make her that way. Not at all surprised to read that her own childhood was itself damaging and abusive in nature. Instead though of seeking the necessary help she unleashed all that damage and pain onto you, her now adult daughter along with any and all other siblings who grew up seeing abuse at home. And now today she still affects you and in turn your children because they are subjected to her as well. She brings nothing positive into any of your lives. You do not owe her anything, let alone any sort of a relationship here.

BTW how does she get on with your siblings, do any of them have any sort of a relationship with her now?.

I would certainly re-read Susan Forward's book. You are still very much in a FOG (fear, obligation and guilt) state with regards to your mother and this needs to be dealt with in therapy too. Denial is also a powerful force too; why do you think that her heart is in the right place?. Its not is it. If a friend was behaving like this you would not think that. What is your thinking or reasoning here behind that sentence?. Is it because this is a defense/protection based measure on your part because the truth re her is on some level too damn painful?.

If you do find a therapist (BACP are good) and I would suggest therapy you need to see a person who also has no familial bias despite the presence of mistreatment. Interview such people carefully and at length before committing, you need to find someone who fits in with your approach.

You may want to have a look also at the Out of the Fog website.

Feeling sad is also par for the course with such a disordered of thinking person like your mother is. I would think she is still controlling (controlling behaviour is also abusive behaviour) and she has likely not changed an iota since your own childhood. Has she ever apologised or even accepted any responsibility for her actions here?. Your response here would in all likelihood be no. Your mother failed you abjectly by failing to protect you as her children from her abuser husband and continues to fail you as an adult and a grandmother to your children. Women like your mother also cannot do relationships so the men in their lives are either as abusive as they are or are otherwise discarded.

Your boundaries also seem to be very low/non existent with regards to your mother mainly because she has made you both an extension of her and her sounding board. Its not surprising your boundaries are crap re her also because she has never really encouraged you to have any. You're probably also the last one left who at all bothers with her; this is because you've received years of "special training" from her to put her first with you dead last. I would also think the "help" she has provided has not been all that, some of it has likely been both unwanted and unwarranted. It has never been without its own brand of loaded obligation and unwritten conditions attached to it ( she could well be thinking she is rescuing you and or otherwise thinking something along the lines of, "look I've had to come in and help my useless daughter again with her kids").

There is no point in confronting her, she is not going to listen and is not interested in what you have to say. You're not strong enough emotionally to do that (you'd come off far worse at this time, she would really turn on you) and besides which you do not have to confront her at all. All you do is withdraw completely and at the very least make yourself far less available to her, it does not have to be an all out confrontation. She would indeed have a negative effect on your life and for that matter your kids lives too. What message are they getting here because they are seeing you as their mother being completely disrespected by their nan. They would too be far better off having no such toxic influence like your mother in their lives. Would you tolerate all these types of negative comments from a friend, no you would not. Your mother is no different. She is neither supportive or has helped you any, she has made you feel a lot worse and she has done way more than enough damage already. Block all ways of her being able to communicate with you, at the very least start seriously reducing the amount of interactions you have with her. Dealing with someone like this is really like watching a re-run of a tv show you've always hated because there is really no interaction. You get nothing out of this with her.

And its not bloody petty either; many people who initially write on her write similar and underplay their own writings. What you write here is very much typical of growing up within an emotionally dysfunctional family unit.

You will need to grieve for the relationship with your mother you should have had rather than the one you actually got. You will only get peace if you shut her out and keep her out of your lives entirely.

Manon

re your comment:-
"She thinks I look loads like her, I do a bit I suppose but I’m fairer haired, have different coloured eyes and different body shape! I can still remember the look on her face when DSIL said she thought I looked more like my DF! She was horrified".

Narcissistic women like your mother really do behave like this; they really do try and make their unfortunate now adult children an extension of them. A possible explanation re her expression may be because you perhaps remind her of her husband, a man who she hated as well.

Hi, welcome @yesteaandawineplease

Have you ever asked her to step back a bit? When she gives you directions about how you live how do you respond? Are you afraid of her, or her moods? Do you alter how you behave when you’re with her?

I think she is still controlling, in that you’re not really in a loving mother-daughter relationship, you’re just tolerating her in your life.

She may have just got stuck in really negative ways of relating to people. She’s certainly quite damaged by the abuse by the sound of it. If you think you want to start placing some boundaries then you’ll put yourself in a better place. You can be very matter of fact - ‘I don’t want to discuss that right now’ ‘ I don’t feel that’s kind/helpful/useful, please don’t say that to me’ ‘ You can leave or put the phone down.

It’s about making sure you are meeting your needs.

Also try not to feel beholden because of something a parent did for you, it’s not helpful. Be grateful by all means, but don’t let it make you miserable. As previously said - gifts should come with ribbons, not strings.

Just one thing though, I knew about NPD for years before I put It together my parents behaviour. I always tried to see the good. Until I saw what I was explaining away was damaging me very seriously.

@Herocomplex no, but I will do

thanks @AttilaTheMeerkat and @Herocomplex

lots to think about. I agree with a lot of what you both say. she definately would like to be controlling. but I have put in place many boundaries over the years and I don't let her into anything me or my family are making a decision on until it's done as I don't want her influence. but I suppose on some level she is controlling as whatever she does say, makes me want to do the opposite. which is pretty childish but it's hard to be objective. she is also great at finding ways round them and is less direct than she used to be.

I guess i say her heart is in the right place as she's super eager to help and visit and is a bit wounded since I've been stepping back and am not letting her do so much. as you say her "help" is often not all that helpful.

she is and was caring and affectionate growing... up but I suppose this was to her own end.

in terms of "the confrontation". as the book suggests I want to do it to see if there's a way forward or not. I cannot keep on with the way things are. this half way house where she's contacting me and looking for support with her break up and asking to visit and me just avoiding her. it feel a wrong not to at least try at least once to let her in on the problem. my in laws have their own issues and I've often said to my dh that he should say something as people aren't mind readers. so I guess feel like I need to swallow my own advice.

i can definately see the narc traits in her but I guess I can also see some of the reasons she's like that and am sympathetic. its just so hard 😣. its not a black and white issue. she's not all bad. but she's definately not the type of person I'd be friends with. compelty spot on.

I have briefly looked at the fog website and will go back.

councilling/therapy is tricky. I've got 3 small kids and no spare time! I've had 6 sessions through a working health initiative. it was stressful arranging to attend the appointments. though it did help certainly. I may look at online options.

right am rambling again. thanks again. would still love to hear confrontation stories if anyone is willing to share.

It’s definitely not rambling. Bear in mind there are LOADS of people reading what you’re writing down, and finding comfort in the fact they’re not alone in feeling like they do. Write, write, write.

I’ve had phone confrontations, I suppose. But they were both about a specific event, I didn’t want to go into a long list of reasons, although my DM demanded it. I just knew they’d be denied or skewed or derided. I know how I feel about myself. I feel incredibly sorry for them, I think about them every day with varying degrees of pain and sorrow and guilt. But I know right now, at this time, I’m so much better not being in touch with them. And my DSis, who was their main victim, is like a different person now.

I’m not a massive fan of the idea of a confrontation. It makes me think of aggression and attack, of settling scores. If you want a meeting where you state your case I understand, but I can’t see how it can ever be a positive experience. People like our mothers are not empathetic or rational, they operate on emotion and self-defence.
But everyone has to decide for themselves, must decide their own boundaries.

re confrontations, well I never really stood up to my parents, I just kind of swallowed their attacks and then years later I ghosted them after I just couldnt take any more. Looking back I have always been distant and never trusted them, I learned when I was a small child that they weren't in my corner and for most of my life it was just gut instinct to evade them and give as little info as possible.
Father always wore a mask and I'm not sure what's really underneath.

Hi everyone! I’m finally logging into the new thread after joining the last one for the first time. I haven’t posted in a while, but that’s in part due to the fact that the wise advice I got on here has meant I haven’t been giving as much thought as previously to my mother. So thank you all, you’ve helped in so many ways. I wish I had posted sooner!

tara Welcome! I’ve been reading through the thread and was really pleased to see you’ve decided to go ahead and have the wedding that you want. Your daughter sounds like such a lovely, strong woman. She’s a credit to you. I love the idea of you getting married with her and her fiancé there - you really should make a gift to yourself of having a beautiful dress and flowers, and getting your hair and makeup done, perhaps together with your lovely daughter as well. I’m sure you won’t, but please please make sure your mother does not get wind of the plans. A daughter’s wedding is like a million Christmases come at once for a narcissist mother. The graduation would be a mere warm-up act for the drama she will invariably cause at a wedding. I speak from experience, as my own mother used the entire run-up to my wedding to pee on my parade before dropping the bombshell the week before that she wouldn’t be coming as I’d treated her so awfully.