"But we took you to Stately Homes" January 2020 onwards

[toomuchtooold]

It's January 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
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August 2013
December 2013
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Oct 14 – Dec 14
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Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
May-August 2019
August-October 2019
November-December 2019

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Bit of a tangent but I have recently been reading and listening to the work of Frank dikotter on dictators, seeing parallels between the way they operate and the techniques used by the 'common or garden narcissist'
Here's a link if anyone is interested (there is much more if you want to Google)
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p03tv4ck

Hi everyone. I'm not speaking to my mother at the moment because she is angry at the things that came up in joint counselling and sending texts, next to come will be long letters/emails. I see now that I shouldn't have ever agreed to it, having had my own counselling for years which was really useful. I brought up things like her threatening suicide, saying she was not my mother if I didn't do as she asked, kicking me out when I was ill and only 17. The counsellor was actually really great, and pulled her up on things. My mums stance is that I am 'bashing' her for no reason 'just like' her family and my dad apparently did. I'm not sure if she is a narcissist, she has been diagnosed as autistic. I think she has been very damaged by her upbringing. She cut the therapy short with no warning when the therapist said that threatening suicide in the way she did it is emotionally abusive. My partner doesn't understand our dynamic and is quite unsupportive which I am finding difficult. At the moment I am just withdrawing from everyone and waiting for these feelings to pass but am really at the stage where I don't think I can have anything more to do with her. Thanks for listening.

Hi Scabbyhorse😊
When you agreed to joint counselling you did so with good intentions so don't blame yourself, but now you know it isn't the best way forward.
It sounds as if your mother cannot tolerate being questioned or held to account on anything, that being the case there really isn't any way forward with her - it's not acceptable to have someone in your life who expects you to act like it doesn't matter when they have done awful things to you!!
What do you want to do now, what would be the best thing for you?
It's upsetting that your partner isn't supportive, do you think that might change?

Thank you @Ulterego yes she seems to operate at a very immature level where if I gently express how I feel about the rubbish treatment she gives me her reply is like a small child going 'but you're being meeeeeean to me'.

I don't know what i want to do really, I just know that I don't want contact with her if it means sweeping everything under the carpet again. She had a really good chance to make things better but she couldn't face her actions.

I think my boyfriend will understand in time hopefully, it's just out of his understanding and experience.

Hi ScabbyHorse

Joint counselling sadly was never going to work out here.

It is really not possible to have a relationship with someone as disordered of thinking as your mother is. Having a mother like this is like dealing with an adult with an emotional age of around six. She will not change and has not altered at all since your own childhood.

Its really not worth trying any longer with her. Walk away entirely and give your own self the peace you deserve. Ultimately you will need to grieve for the relationship you should have had rather than the one you actually got.

If your boyfriend is not supportive and or understanding of you here then I would consider whether you want to remain with him. Some people never get this type of familial dysfunction at all mainly and simply because it is outside of their own experience and thus incomprehensible.

Who diagnosed her also as being on the autistic spectrum?. This person may not have been qualified to do so. Again this is no excuse for her behaviours towards you.

Hi Attila I do feel more peaceful without contact but I don't know if I could stop it entirely. But then if I just have contact on, say, birthdays and other important days, historically this is when she normally behaved the worst.

She was diagnosed through someone the GP referred her to so I believed it without questioning it although come to think of it, she has been known to lie about things doctors have said to get attention.

I feel more like her mother sometimes than the other way round. Have stopped letting her look after my child as that was clearly not a good idea.

Hello all you brave people, I have realised that I most likely have complex PTSD caused by emotional neglect as a child. My single mum with depression would say things like "I wish I could go to sleep and never wake up" "I wish I'd never had you" my feelings, emotions, wants and needs weren't important so I learnt at an early age to read her emotions and then present what she needed back to her to help her feel better. This adapted way of being has.become more life long. I am now in my 40s with a chronic health condition. I have my own children now. Her depression is still a factor, I suspect she is a covert narcissist but is also basically lonely and plays the victim.
I have limited contact and quite frankly would love to be no contact but I have children who like their granny and there are no examples of her being outright nasty it's more about the absence of nurture and love so doesn't really feel like I have anything concrete to say why I would do that. And also I know it comes from her own place of loneliness and despair. Any insights or thoughts would be much appreciated

ScabbyHorse

Low contact can often lead to no contact.

I would stay away from your mother altogether and I am glad to read that you now keep your child away from her too. She was not a good parent to you when you were growing up and such people make for being deplorably bad as grandparent figures as well. People like your mother who is probably a narcissist do poorly in therapy anyway because they think there is nothing wrong with them.

Re your comment:-
"She was diagnosed through someone the GP referred her to so I believed it without questioning it although come to think of it, she has been known to lie about things doctors have said to get attention"

Do you know who the GP referred her to?. I think your mother was lying to get attention from you. In order for an ASD diagnosis to be made, a person will usually be assessed as having had persistent difficulties with social communication and social interaction and restricted and repetitive patterns of behaviours, activities or interests since early childhood, to the extent that these "limit and impair everyday functioning". ASD does not equal abusive behaviour like you have seen from your mother.

Bohoboo

It is not your fault your mother is like this and you did not make her that way.

What support/therapy services are you receiving currently with regards to your PTSD?.

You do not mention your father here; is he in your life at all now?.

It is NOT possible to have a relationship with a narcissist or someone as disordered of thinking as your mother is.

I would keep your mother well away from your children; she is basically using them as narcissistic supply. Many adult children of narcissists fall into this trap in hoping against both hope and their own experience that the narcissistic parent will behave better when they become grandparents. It does not happen. She was not a good parent to you when you were growing up (look at the damaging legacy she has left you with on top of your own fear, obligation and guilt) and she will do similar harm to your children (who are too young to realise they are being manipulated). The harm being done to your kids will happen too right in front of your very eyes. As your children become older and express opinions of their own she will not like that at all; it may well be that she has a "favourite" child now whilst the other is scapegoated.

You're older and therefore more experienced which is the point of being the parent. The child is dependent on your good sense and protective wisdom. You're smarter than your child; use that to your advantage (such as using the distraction method). You are the final authority. This is not a negotiable issue. The child doesn't get to decide on this one because they lack the understanding, wisdom, experience and good sense that, hopefully, you have. So don't look like you're unsure or open to quibble. You'll undermine yourself if you look anything but firm and resolved on it. Use your advantages as parent to smooth the effects of the cut-off. Over time this will all quiet down. Kids tend to accept what is. It will happen more quickly if you follow the above advice.

Do not be afraid of your children's possible, or actual, reactions. Don't be afraid that you are depriving them of something important by cutting off a set of grandparents. You are only "depriving" them of bad things. Reassure yourself with that truth. Family is not everything. Blood is not binding. You are escaping the Mob Family. What should connect us is how we treat each other with love and respect. This is always a good lesson to teach our little ones. If any part of you is unsure of your decision then, for Pete's sake, don't show it. Your resoluteness will go a long way toward reassuring your children that you are acting in everyone's best interest. If your children know that you love them, they are going to feel reassured that this decision is also based in your love for them. They will find an added sense of security to know that you, as their parent, are willing to protect them even at the cost of your relationship with your own parent(s). Rather than being fearful, see the plentiful opportunities in this. You are protecting your children from someone whom you've experienced as being abusive; you are reassuring your children that you are in charge and are watchful for their best interests (creates deep sense of security); you can teach healthy family values which include that family doesn't get a pass for abusive behavior; you can strengthen and reinforce the healthy relationships in your extended family. Kids are less likely to feel like there is a void in their life if you fill it with good things.

AttilaTheMeerkat thank you for taking the time to reply. This feels very exposing!. My children don't see her often and to be honest she doesnt seem very interested in them. They aren't that young and just do their thing. It's more that I can't find it in me to be that cruel to a lonely old lady with mental health issues. I can't even say "you did xyz" it's much more subtle and intangible than that. I'm grieving all that I've not had at the moment. My Dad is still alive I see him occasionally he has an inability to connect emotionally too.

"It's more that I can't find it in me to be that cruel to a lonely old lady with mental health issues".

She found it within her all too readily to be cruel towards you when you were growing up. There is no justification or excuse for her behaviours towards you. She had a choice and acted of her own free will here. Where were the other adults in your life?. Sadly no-one thought it necessary to protect you from your abuser of a mother.
You were let down abjectly and not just by your mother but by all the adults in your life at that time.

Not everyone either with MH issues or a crap childhood go onto abuse their child or children. You certainly do not treat your children in the ways you were yourself treated as a child. Its a choice and your mother chose to abuse you and make you her very own personal scapegoat for all her inherent ills.

Instead of seeking the necessary help as well, your mother took out all her abuse, hate and bile on you and you at the time were a child, an innocent. Abuse is about power and control too.

It is not your fault she is like this; the abuse you suffered at her hands and still have the legacy of is all down to and because of her. Its hard for you because in all likelihood you are the only one who bothers with her and you do that because you've been trained to put your own self last and her first.

Your children likely have the measure of her by now and unsurprisingly do not see her very often. Why should they see someone like your mother who does not give a fig about them or you as her daughter?. You need to do the same ultimately and free your own self.

Walking away from your mother entirely is the best gift you could give yourself; she does not bring anything positive into your life does she?. Free yourself from the FOG that still envelops you.

@Bohoboo she might be a lonely old lady with mental health issues but you were a vulnerable child who needed a loving mother. She has trained you to feel so much guilt about her pain and suffering that you’re putting it ahead of your own emotional wellbeing.

You are allowed to bring objectivity into your relationship, make sure you prioritise you’re own needs.

ScabbyHorse
I don't know what i want to do really
I would cut loose now, she will only get worse as she gets older and you dont want her to be your problem, retreat to a safe distance and let her use her 'wiles' on professional service providers
Bohoboo
I can't find it in me to be that cruel to a lonely old lady with mental health issues
she deserves help and support, but not from you because it would be to your detriment and your first duty is to yourself, if you step away she will have to reach out to others, and if she doesnt that is HER CHOICE

Hi all

I think I've been here before many moons ago, as I know my upbringing wasn't "ideal"

However I was reading a book recently and had a bit of an epiphany - I'm fairly sure that I'm suffering from cptsd and have blocked a lot of memories out. For instance, I remember being pushed down the stairs, but can't tell you anything about what happened beforehand. Or I have memories of running away to my nan's house, but no memory of why. I've had depression and anxiety for all of my adult life, and have an adult diagnosis of autism - which goes some way towards explaining (apologies to any parents of autistic kids here, I'm just trying to rationalise...) why my parents found me so difficult. It's obviously not okay though.

Then I realised that my memory of my rape (as an adult) - what memory I have, as I was out of it - is all expressed as me watching it happen, and read about different forms of dissociation in cptsd. I think (if this makes sense) that my brain had learnt from earlier trauma that it was easiest if I wasn't "there", but did so in a different manner.

I also have a very good partner now (following a shitty marriage) and she has helped me to notice my insistence on pleasing everybody all of the time is not a normal behaviour. I will not make decisions, I am terrified of saying the wrong thing. I did think that this was due to my asd and an obsession with perfect behaviour, but thinking about it now, that specific obsession came about after I was constantly "wrong". Iyswim.

So, I don't know where I go from here, but I needed to write it down. Or the beginnings of my thoughts, anyway.

I have flashes of fear, anxiety and extreme anger, but don't really know whether to call them "flashbacks" as the specific memories aren't there. These frequently come at night when I am alone (alone awake, at least) and so stop me sleeping. I've self harmed since I was young, and intentionally put myself at risk.

Hello all, I'm in need of a sanity check. Do you ever wonder if you're over-reacting and looking for things to be angry about? Blowing things out of proportion? I'm really angry with my MIL tonight, due to a variety of aspects of a telephone conversation, but I haven't told my DH the things she's said as I know he'll get angry on my behalf and that will probably lead to a falling out. I don't want to feel responsible for that, but I also really want to vent to him about what she's doing.

@BeyondReasonablyDoubtsLots you could really do with some help to process what’s happening to you, and particularly to stop you from hurting yourself. Everything you say is pointing to CPTSD, as you say. Take care of yourself as well as you can, I really hope you can access some support.

@ScatteredMama82 if you’ve been taught to deny your feelings then doubting the validity of your own anger is quite usual. You’re deescalating, rather than dealing with the problem, do you think?

@Herocomplex yes perhaps I am. She told my 5 year old DS that she's 'not allowed to give him presents anymore unless it's Christmas'. He was confused by this, and I can't believe she said it. He mentioned that a favourite toy had broken, and she first asked him if he would like a new one, then said she couldn't get him it for the reason above. This is because both myself and DH have asked her on several occasions to stop lavishing the kids with gifts all the time, we appreciate the generosity etc but asked that she restrict it to birthdays & Christmas (as it was getting ridiculous - for example she spent over £100 buying them little suitcases to go on holiday when we didn't ask for them or need them, and we asked her to return them). The difference of opinion over gifts is something to discuss with me and DH, and I'm really angry that she brought my little DS into it (just to have a dig at me I'm sure). Do I tell DH?

...she also continued to pressure me to accept the role of being her 'lasting power of attorney'. I've refused before, with sound reasons (i.e. DH would be the other one, and the only reason I would need to be involved is when he is deployed as he is military - in which case I'm on my own with the children and not able to drop everything and drive 4 hours to her to make potentially life-changing decisions on her behalf). DH has explained this to her, and she does have a partner so it's not like DH is the only one. she could have DH plus her OH, but she's really pressuring me to take it on.

Ah yes Scattered I’ve experienced that tactic. My DM doesn’t like to be asked not to do or say things, instead of thinking she might be causing worry or upset she just sees it as an order that she’s not going to follow. It’s then a sort of performance of martyrdom, with the aim of showing you to be the unreasonable one, not the nice kind granny who only means well. It’s more power games.

And as for the POA your DH has already explained, just repeat adinfinitum that it’s not up for discussion.

Set your boundaries, keep them strong. Be very careful with your children, if she’s manipulating you then she’s certainly going to manipulate them.

Her involving your 5-year old like that is appalling Scatteredmama☹️
Weird spiteful childlike thing to do ☹️
Today I did some folding/'kondo-ing'😁 surprisingly helpful I feel more in control😁

Scattered

Your H continues to use you as a buffer between he and his mother; a person he really does not want to deal with at all mainly because he cannot and also will not. And please talk to your H, after all he has grown up with her and knows her far more than you do. This is more of the same shit from her as well. She was not a good parent to him when he was growing up and now not too dissimilar crap is being heaped upon your child.

It is not your fault nor your H's that his mother is this disordered of thinking. You and your family unit really have to protect yourselves from someone like his mother because she will try to continue to trample over you all and destroy your own family unit.

Ask yourself this too. Would you have tolerated this from a friend, no you would not have done. His mother is really no different.

"I'm really angry with my MIL tonight, due to a variety of aspects of a telephone conversation, but I haven't told my DH the things she's said as I know he'll get angry on my behalf and that will probably lead to a falling out"

Falling outs within "normal" and emotionally healthy families happen but things are patched up. In dysfunctional families i.e the sort your DH grew up in serious and lies are commonplace, the family is controlled utterly. What you describe here is not and has never been anywhere near a falling out (and why too would you think you are responsible anyway for that happening); its far more serious than a mere argument.
This comment makes me think that you have underplayed just how awful his toxic mother is and makes me also think you are yourself mired in fear, obligation and guilt.

My previous counsel to you remains valid; you absolutely have to withdraw yourself from her line of fire. Keeping in touch as you have done has really done you no favours at all here and now she is not surprisingly starting on your child. At the very least now you need to lower all current contact levels with her and raise your own still too low boundaries. This may be hard because with her you've really been encouraged not to have any; his mother sees you as the weak link here and exploits that connection further to get back at both her son and you.

She lavishing your kids with gifts also is not "generosity" on her part either; its an attempt from her to buy the hearts and minds of your children and getting back at you two at the same time. Such always comes with conditions attached in terms of strings, not ribbons.

Do not become her donor re power of attorney. (I have my reasons to dislike such documents anyway and would never sign one mainly because I feel they have been oversold over the years in terms of overall benefit) . As Herocomplex rightly states its another form of performance martyrdom from his mother (btw my MIL did this same behaviour as well).

Hi BeyondReasonable😊
I can relate to what you say about dissociating, I always knew it was a 'thing' but it wasn't until my therapist explained that it's considered part of the 'emergency' response (fight flight or freeze - I always used to think of it as just fight or flight) that it began to make sense to me.
I have some memories as a very young child but I think I must have been preverbal when the memory was formed but I remembered dissociating, it's mixed up though, I have found EMDR helpful.

Just wondering about other peoples strategies on blocking.... The parent seems to have a strategy of contacting me on new numbers after I block them (with a friendly chatty message as if nothing is going on🙄) I don't know whether to keep on blocking or to get a new number?