"But we took you to Stately Homes" January 2020 onwards

[toomuchtooold]

It's January 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
May-August 2019
August-October 2019
November-December 2019

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@CeciledeVolanges Absolutely a message designed to feed her. Don't respond. She's using animals I assume you care a lot about to manipulate you. As harsh as it might feel don't engage.

I took the advice of the group btw. I got another drunk essay from mother dearest, received very late, poor grammar and many words missing.

She isn't getting the response she craves this time.

so.... I haven't heard from my father for a couple of months.

a couple of days ago I had an email send to me and my Dbro (he's totally NC) "Hope you are both well, haven't heard from you for a while, thought you might want to see these photos". (I suspect he's isolating with my step ma and clearing the attic or something)

So i sweated on my reply for a couple of days and sent him a breezy message saying I called him on his birthday and assumed that he was busy as I hadn't had a call back" the truth is that I hate calling him because I've religiously done so every month and the first 10 minutes of every call is him moaning that my brother never calls him.

I proceeded to say that we're ok, husband is front line so obviously very worried, kids are ok (not that he asked).

The email reply: wondered why you hadn't been in touch - thought you'd joined your brother's army. I don't remember a call, did you leave a message?"

FFS!! I lost it at this point. normal parents are doing everything they can at this point to make sure their loved ones are safe. Like we are. You know what? I did call and I did leave a message. He didn't call me a week later on my birthday (presumably still sulking). he's not acknowledged me offering information that everyone is asking at the moment (is everyone ok, are you safe etc) and instead it's still his agenda.

He absolutely trashed my wedding 9 months ago by picking a very public fight with his sister and upsetting my stepdaughter when she went to speak to him. I'm still seething about that but I know from past memory that you just can't ever point out a fault with him because he rewrites history on this stuff. It's taking everything I can not to tell him right now to do one. Instead I'm keeping my distance as much as possible.

Probably not anything that anyone can help with, I'm just venting! He wrote me an email later that evening saying he'd checked his voicemail and found it and "ah well, life goes on". No apology, no thank you.

The whole world literally revolves around him and his agenda, and in a global crisis there's no care, no consideration, no picking up of the phone, nothing.

dolly that sounds really upsetting, and he sounds absolutely and totally self-absorbed. I’m sorry, I’ve not much more to say than that. I hope your husband and all of you get through this safely, you must be frantic.

Thanks @CeciledeVolanges. We are frantic but no more than anybody else! I wish we could do more to help other people in this situation. The most I've managed is to immobilise my in laws with zoom access for video calling and keeping the momentum going there.

It is upsetting but I guess I have to wait for the dust to settle on the current situation and just confirm in my head that I'm walking away now. I'll keep reading up on the resources to help

The whole world literally revolves around him and his agenda
can you follow suit Dolly...ie treat him exactly as he treats you?
Mind you that's still kind of engaging so 'extreme and permanent social distancing' is prob the best way to go!

Dolly I think your last bit about reading the resources is your best tactic. Your dad had used a number of well-worn techniques there, the one that stood out to me is the ‘ joined your brothers army’. And the everyone’s-against-me-and-I-don’t know-why.
He thinks he’s not being hostile, but he’s asserting his authority all the time, it’s designed to get you to explain and apologise and just get over it all to make it stop.

Just let him do it in a vacuum. Don’t engage, you know it’s all nonsense.

Hope you can concentrate on the good people and keep them loved, that’s the important thing.

selfisolating in a way that message from your mum is similar in its manipulation, but laying on the self-pity. Just take her at her word.
Take care of yourself.

Spot on @Fanthorpe, every conversation I've had with him in the past few years starts with him displaying shock and surprise that my brother doesn't talk to him and I quote "I don't know why he won't talk to me, it's like I've done something wrong but he won't tell me what it is. And I've always made an effort with him" same same conversation at the start of every phone call.

Having to wait 10 minutes to get that out of the way before we get onto whether anyone else is ok is soul destroying. One day I said "but I've made the effort to call you, I always instigate a call" the response was another 5 minutes of him playing the victim

I cracked. After what, nearly 2 years on NC with my parents I felt with the current world situation not that things would change but that I should try and open a reasonable line of communication. I knew my dad at least still had my email address as he apparently got hacked a few weeks ago and a viral message was sent from his address, followed by a message to all that it wasn't him. This used to be something which happened on a regular basis as he is very lackadaisical with his internet security.

I also received some post just a week after starting in my new job, which could only have been from my parents but was almost a 'we know where you work' message as they were attendance certificates and such from my old secondary, which is where I am now working. No note with them.

So I sent a brief email to both parents at their respective email addresses. I'm an idiot.

I have had a curt reply from father stating that he is disappointed I still feel the same - I said I couldn't forget his behaviour in my home making me feel unsafe but that I felt current world state as it was, I would let them know we are safe and well and hoped they were. Enclosed a photo of the children too. He is also unhappy I shut the door on mother as this upset her so much.

I am a fool. I didn't expect an apology, an outpouring of reflection accepting responsibility. But I had hoped he wasn't such a twat still.
He is gatekeeping for mother as I have had nothing from her myself. She has always enabled him, apologised and made excuses for him and I think this is the one thing that he can do for her when he has been pretty lousy in my experience of him being a child growing up with him. He can protect her from the reality of a situation they don't want to admit was 50% their making.

The last contact I had with him was the day he stood in my old home screaming and shouting at me, refusing to leave with mother sat weeping behind him. I tried on a couple of occasions to meet with mother but it always ended up with 'you know what your father is like' and this was the driving reason for NC. Yes, I do know what he is like, so does she and yet she expects us to put up with it. You can't choose your family I guess. The last time I saw mother, she came to our door with some things that she thought were ours (they weren't) and DH shut the door on her as I was briefly unavailable and she started berating him. When I opened the door she opened with a tirade about how badly she has been treated and so on.

But at least I do know where I stand with them. They do not want to make reparations at all as it would mean admitting responsibility for their actions. And father can never do that. Mother always used to apologise on his behalf but she knows that won't wash with me.

And so I return to NC. Knowing that I have tried, and failed, to be a dutiful daughter. That I will never be good enough so now I can let that go with peace.

@CeciledeVolanges - can you set a rule that all emails from your mothers email address go straight to trash? That way you won't have to see them in your inbox and can just empty your trash every few days without opening them.

Ah @minisoksmakehardwork you have your answer then, they’re determined to hold on to their high ground no matter what the cost.

Imagine being offered a chance to reconnect and not recognising it, even now with the world as it is.You can close the door now. Not easy, I’m sure. A bit more grief, perhaps.

I keep wondering about contacting mine, but coming to the view that it’s just too much to risk my state of mind, I’m in an ok place, and there’s no good reason to alter that. I think back to all the years of pain and sadness they caused and feel glad I’m reclaiming some peace.

@Fanthorpe, you are right, I have my answer. Thankfully a 2 year absence has done a lot of good for my mental health and I am in a much stronger place than when all this started. It also means I have just a pang of ... I don't think it's even grief to be honest. Sadness maybe, but not as strong a feeling as grief - it is not so ell encompassing and overwhelming, at closing that door again, and it will also be much shorter and less complicated than last time.

I think if you are putting your state of mind at risk then it really is the best thing not to open that door again.

It really is the best thing not to open that door again
Close the door, lock the door and then brick the door up.
Mini, you have not failed, you gave them every chance to be reasonable and they were unable or unwilling.
Now you are free to live your own life with a clear conscience.

I've NC as I know quite a few people in RL from MN. I've been watching these threads for years as the title is literally what my mum says. "But I bought you so much!" She will say if I bring up any nasty things she has done.

I need to reduce contact with my parents and looking for a hand hold. My mum is a narcissist and possibly severe mental health difficulties but she would never accept this. My dad agrees but he is very difficult too, I'm not sure how much is a direct result of being married to her for so long with the constant psychological torture, insults and negativity.

She is very emotionally/psychologically abusive. She was quite physically abusive towards me and sometimes towards my dad until I was able to move out. She's only attacked me physically a few times since then.

To people on the outside, I had an idyllic childhood as they have a lot of money and my mum puts on an excellent front. They use their money for control. They gave me a large deposit for my first house which has always made me feel very indebted to them. My mum has a great bond with my children and is nice to them. She has multiple personalities and one of them is nice.

When I first left home I wasn't a very nice person, looking back I think being extremely nasty to people was all I had ever known but I recognised this quickly after moving away and made very big changes. I now pride myself on being kind to people and making sure my children are gently parented.

What I am really struggling with now is how my mum still treats me, as well as them both trying to humiliate me sometimes. Also how my dad treats me (like a child) but it is no way near as bad. My mum mainly tells me: I'm a horrible person / nasty bitch / need my children taking away / lazy / useless / ugly etc. I can't take it anymore, mainly constantly telling me that I'm a terrible parent/shouldn't have my kids. I see them around once every 2 months but they live far away so its an extended stay. I obviously make sure that I keep them away from friends I have made.

Reading this back, they seem really bad. They aren't that bad some of the time but I think I need to stop justifying their behaviour as there were some very low points in my childhood.

Where are your boundaries at with regards to your abusive parents; they seem pretty much non existent really which is not at all surprising as they (particularly your mother) have encouraged you not to have any and put your own self last.

You need to put in place higher boundaries urgently; one thing that is possible here to do anyway now is not visit them. This lockdown has done you a favour in that particular respect and even when that is lifted you do not need to go visit them every two months for an extended stay. I wonder how you feel in the days and weeks leading up to such a visit; full of fear, obligation and guilt I would think and these three damaging legacies that your parents gave you keep you trapped.

Will you consider seeing a therapist here; BACP are good and do not charge the earth. I would also suggest you read the websites entitled Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers and Out of the FOG.

Many adult children of narcissists seem to believe the fiction that their abusive parents will somehow behave better towards them this time around when children are on the scene; that does not happen. Your children also need to be kept well away from your parents now going forward because they will be harmed similarly as to how you have yourself been harmed. You need to ask yourself too why you keep putting yourself in their presence at all given their abuses of you (and in turn now your children who you mother will avidly seize upon as being a good source of narcissistic supply). Are you still looking for their approval and or an apology for past abuses and other wrong doings on their part?. It will not happen and they will not become the nice and kind parents you perhaps still want them to be. Again its not your fault they are like this, you did not yourself cause this to happen. Their own families did that to them.

Would you have tolerated any of this from a friend?. No you would not have done. Your parents are no different. Your dad here is really both her secondary abuser and enabler. He has also abjectly failed you as a parent here by throwing you to the wolves also out of self preservation and want of a quiet life. He has sacrificed you on the alter of her (and his) abuse. Women like your mother cannot do relationships at all. The men in their lives either are as narcissistic or otherwise abusive or are otherwise discarded.

The only acceptable level of abuse in a relationship too is NONE. Your parents have and continue to fail you abjectly. Many abusers also use money as yours have done to further keep their target obligated.

Release yourself of their tyranny entirely and reclaim your life. Indeed stop justifying their behaviours here; there is no justification whatsoever for their actions, you were but a child too when this all started.

What do you think would happen if you cut all contact with your abusers; the sky would not fall in would it?. What's the worse that could happen?.

NC for this.. I"m isolating, haven't left my house for 2+ weeks now, have been very VERY diligent about it. I have one DD, her DF has never met her, she would have noone at all if I got ill or worse. I have prioritised both our safety out of fear. It has been hard but we have been working it through.

Then there is DM, who is on marriage number 4 to stepDF. Weeks ago, I urged them to see what was coming, to protect themselves. Long before everyone panic bought, I advised them to have a bit more food than usual in the house as they might not want to go out as much. They didn't listen. They said they had spent all their money and claimed poverty, no cash to spare (they are on the verge of retirement and have continuously blown their money including a sizeable inheritance in recent years on going out and holidays). They did not prepare, but did begin to completely isolate a week ago.

StepDF is a heavy drinker. Today DM says that he has started throwing up blood violently and similar - I suspect he has been drinking heavily since they started isolating as this is no stretch of the imagination. In other words, I believe whatever he has t be self inflicted. I could be wrong.

I had already agreed to drop food off for them. But now DM wants someone to go for them and get medecine. And this puts me in the position of - do I break the isolation that has kept me and DD safe so far?

There is a lot more background to this - DM was not a great mother growing up. I've had severe MH issues for as long as I can remember. I was provided for, but otherwise grew up completely alone emotionally, subject to verbal and physical abuse, the brunt of DM's negative emotions.. I left home swearing I would never return. In more recent years DM begged me to come back and live near her with a baby then left me isolated in a new place barely ever coming to see us. She intermittely sees us on her terms or tells us she has no time for us due to their social life.

I am angry she is asking this of me, asking me to choose. I probably wouldn't go get medecine for me and DD right now unless my leg was literally falling off, I don't want to go for them, especially not if this stomach thing is self inflicted. I feel angry, and rebellious. And yet I'm going over and over it.

I think if I post this anywhere else like AIBU I will be told I'm a horrible human being. Am I, or if you are all on Stately Homes can you see where I am coming from?

Noideareally
Hiya!
Long before everyone panic bought, I advised them to have a bit more food than usual in the house as they might not want to go out as much. They didn't listen
you did your bit then^
they CHOSE not to listen so this situation is of their choosing, ie they are trying to use it as a way to get leverage over you.
Leave them to it, they will find someone else to do their bidding, I would just be flakey and un-contactable, dont be 'ms reliable', be 'ms herd of cats-couldnt organise a piss up in a brewery'

Thanks ulter you have profiled me well there, ms reliable. Yes and I know she will use passive aggressive guilt etc on me. I 'react ', am easily triggered or whatever when people use psychology on me like this.

My DSis will be her next port of call I think. But she runs around after DSis so part of me thinks that's fair. DSis is the upshot to me, not reactive and manipulates DM to do stuff for her.

And DSis's kids have someone else, their DF and other family.

Yes Noideareally2 we definitely understand. She took no notice of you when you were trying to help because she thinks she knows best. You made it clear that you don’t want to go out, she can get someone else.

Are you ok generally? Do you have other people who care about you? Look after yourself and DD, that’s your priority. I’m sorry you had a useless mother, it’s a good plan to think about how you can reduce her contact with you when this is over. Make a new start.

DSis is the upshot to me, not reactive and manipulates DM to do stuff for her
sounds a bit like your sister is controlling towards your mum and in retaliation (albeit not necessarily consciously so) your mother tries to dominate you?
If that is the dynamic then what would happen if you removed yourself from the equation?

@noideAreally - I'm not sure what medicine you take for vomiting blood?

Stay put, continue to self isolate. If they need medical assistance then that is a legitimate reason for THEM to leave the house.

Argh why do I feel guilty.

Had a row with mum and we've since kid spoken.

I'm glad as I can now go NC, which I know I need to do. But feel guilty about it given the current epidemic! X

Sunnie do you know what, I hadn't even thought of that.. I was so busy thinking it should be me, I didn't stop and ask myself why DM saw step DF coughing up blood for a whole day and still didn't go out to the village chemist herself. That is such a good point.

Generally, no my MH is bad and mainly as a result of that I would describe myself as very alone. Sometimes I prefer it that way as other people stress me out, I really struggle to read and navigate social situations. Other times I wish I was good at all that and had some friends. I don't trust myself with other people for now and being alone with DD is better feeling 10x worse.

My DSis is the complete opposite, very socially able, from what I hear was pretty mean to some people in school, still uses rejection as a weapon - at one point a few years ago she decided she would talk to me, it was actually nice for a while but then one day she just, turned on me - became instantly cold, sneering, rejecting in that moment. I was confused and felt so rejected and low. It's like she knows she can do that to people and uses that power. Her way of indicating I'm below her, I don't know. Now when I see her at DM's she doesn't look at me directly, but might smirk as if to show she knows I'm there and deliberately ignoring me and knows I can see that. She has been this way since we were small, and I guess the same could be said for me.

Once before on here someone wrote something very wise, that DM sees everyone as above or below her, that DSis is above and I'm below. That framing did/does work quite well.

I’m really sorry and am thinking of everyone having a tough time at the moment.
namechangestately your post rang a lot of bells with me. Having rich parents can almost make it worse sometimes because they can use, or attempt to use, gifts as leverage and there is less likely to be help or protective intervention if the family is affluent. Parents who are not abusive do not attach strings to gifts or constantly remind you of their generosity, or tell you that you’re ungrateful or owe you things in return. Some of my friends have rich and generous parents and they do not act like that, so it’s definitely not all in your head.

noideareally it sounds like you’re a great mum. You’ve got your daughter’s safety and health at the front of your mind and as a result you’re doing what you need to do to keep both of you safe. It’s dreadful that this even needs saying but if your mother was a good mother that would be her first thought too, protecting her children and grandchildren! Instead she’s being selfish and thoughtless.

Is anyone else finding lockdown relatively easy? Obviously I’ve lived alone and independently but I’m also so used to living under the complete control of someone else, isolated from the outside world and with no privacy that the ability to go for a run on my own without anyone really knowing where I’m going, or to go to the shops and buy whatever I want, feels relatively liberating to me.

Thoughts with all of you at the moment.