"But we took you to Stately Homes" January 2020 onwards

[toomuchtooold]

It's January 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
May-August 2019
August-October 2019
November-December 2019

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

I'm not going to either, it's just... another stage in the grieving process, I suppose
toomuchtooold,
I sort of feel that if I can stay away through this then when it's over the landscape will have changed somehow, the chasm between us will be all the more obviously unbridgeable, they will be all the more 'dead to me'

My mother is very difficult. I didn't really realise how bad she was to me as a child until I became a mum myself almost 18 mths ago. Cue absolute meltdowns from her when I was grappling with a newborn. I'm still struggling to understand how she could be so vitriolic when she knew I was trying to get to grips with having a newborn. I used to speak to her everyday but since all of this I contact her much much less. She never initiates contact with me at all.

The latest coronavirus advice is an example of how annoying she can be. She's in a risk group, she should stay home. People locally have offered to get her shopping etc and I've tried to do an online shop for her. But she's adamant she has to go out. She just loves to be a martyr. Sounds awful but I swear she enjoys making me have to worry about her. It all feels so contrived and deliberate. Why can't she just accept the offers of help and stay home for a bit? She is retired so has no need to be out and about

I’d leave her to it Poppy she’s taking up too much headspace by the sound of it. If she can’t behave like an adult why should you waste your time? Concentrate on your child.

You don’t mention your Dad, is he around?

Are you thinking of withdrawing from her? Read the outofthefog.website for more info.

I notice you used ‘get to grips’ and ‘grappling’ when you describe your experience as a new mother, I’m guessing your own mother made it seem like more of a struggle?

I’m really sorry, it’s a real blow when you realise how difficult things were made by someone who should have been your biggest protector.

I’m really sorry, it’s a real blow when you realise how difficult things were made by someone who should have been your biggest protector

@fanthorpe you've just hit the nail on the head with the above. My daughter is now 17 mths and since the newborn hell I've very much kept my mum at arm's length. But it's really scarred me. I stupidly assumed because she was my mum I could rely on her, it's taken the rug out from under me realising I can't. She knew I was ambivalent about being a mother, she knew I found the early days hard and she chose to kick me when I was down. She went insane and screamed in my face when I ran out of milk and didn't notice - DD was 6 weeks old. In response I started putting DD in the pram so I could go and get some milk from the shop and she went mad at me for taking a baby out in the dark (it was 5pm but December). That sounds like a small thing but it's just one of the many examples of her mad irrational behaviour. I lost count of the number of times she criticised me, she told me my husband would love the baby more than me, she told me I'd fall out with my in laws soon enough because I was a bitch, she told me sneeringly that I needed to get some help because I must be mentally ill to be this awful to her. The list goes on.
My dad died many years ago and I have no siblings so it's just me and her. I don't feel like I will ever trust her again and it's made me look back at memories of my own childhood and realise it wasn't normal

Hi everyone.

Haven't checked in for a while but wanted to see how you were all doing with the CV pandemic.

I've had a few wobbles over the last few days - my mother is over 70 and lives alone. But then I think she has my sister (who lives abroad - not my problem that she lives abroad), I know she wouldn't help me out even though I'm probably going to have to take the 3 month mortgage payment holiday. on offer, and she never cared for me when I was young, sick, and vulnerable.

I know that gong NC isn't about punishing people but I have seen so much kindness from friends and strangers these last couple of weeks why should I waste my energy on someone who means nothing to me when there are people who I love and care for who also need support.

I said it upthread somewhere but people like my mother work very hard at ensuring they're alone.

If anyone is struggling or just needs to chat please come and post here. It's a wonderful kind corner of the internet and nobody will judge you.

Oh poppy that’s bloody awful, you must have felt really undermined, that’s extraordinarily bad behaviour. Seeing you loving and nurturing your baby has really sparked something in her, I’m guessing her own childhood was difficult, as well as her early experiences as a mother.

None of it your fault. She’s responsible for this. On the last thread there was a very wise statement made along the lines of -
Narcissists play a game of ‘I’ll be the mummy and you be the baby’ but when they get bored or tired of it the baby gets cast aside or tormented. The baby doesn’t know what to do, when really it can’t do anything, the game just isn’t fair.

I’m sorry about your dad, that’s made it very intense. But she’s chosen to do this. You can’t change her, but you can change what you do. And don’t let her do to your child what she did to you. Be calm, find out for yourself where your boundaries are, and stop her from bringing her nonsense into your life. Good luck!

I know that going NC isn't about punishing people
Yellow, I see it as a way of protecting and nurturing yourself, which is why it makes sense to save your care and compassion for those who appreciate and value you!
I do also see it as a way of imposing sanctions though, like if the other person was a country this is me saying 'nope I will not trade with you because your human rights record is just too egregious'
poppymatilda
what you describe sound horrific, if my daughter had a new baby I would want to cherish and protect them both, it's so awful and humiliating when they behave so dreadfully towards you but because you didn't expect it you are blindsided and then you try to rationalize because you cant believe your own mother could be so spiteful, and then you've let it go on and it feels too hard to call them out, plus you are so confused and angry you can hardly think straight.
Oh yes they kick you while you're down, they chose their moments and place their attacks so they will do the most damage:(

@Ulterego Spot on as ever. Yes, it's so like trade sanctions. And that's how I'm gong to think of it from now on.

It's hard at the moment seeing people worried about their parents and I feel like such a cold fish sometimes. But I can't believe how much I've matured with friends over the past few months. I'm not afraid to be honest and ask for help or offer help anymore either and I do wonder if I was still in contact with my mother whether I would be stressing a whole lot more about the current situation.

I feel extremely lucky to have a good support network outside of my family. But I've also realised that one of the things that was holding me back from having a good support network was the FOG that I didn't just feel about my mother but about the world in general.

I've realised it's ok to fuck up sometimes and 99% of the world won't care: they will either laugh with you as you fuck up or if you need it they'll hold your hand.

I stupidly rang her up last night. It's just that in the current situation the guilt is really getting to me. I'm not well with suspected CV so self-isolating for a couple of weeks.

She made a big thing about how she wished she could come down and take care of me because 'it's a mother's instinct'. It blows my mind when she's like this, trying to be all caring presumably because she knows she'll never have to follow through on it. But sometimes I start to fall for it even now. it was so rare she actually took care of me when I was ill as a kid, she used to get so impatient with me.

And then she made a big thing about 'what a good mummy she is' for listening to me and complying with all my wishes because I'm a worrier and that I'm just like my father, never give her any praise.

I reminded her that these things are not 'my wishes' but the government advice and she should be listening to them anyway without me having to drum it into her.

Sigh. Why is she such damn hard work? It's exhausting

Once you see the traits and behaviours for what they are you can escape from some of the frustration, it’s all very predictable. Narcs only really care about their own feelings. Your mother clearly enjoys drama and it’s been your role to play along. There’s no value for you in challenging her fantasy. You really need to disengage. Do the reading. Think about ‘grey rocking’ or low contact if possible. The more you know the more you’ll see through the tactics and behaviour, the less you’ll see any capacity for change.

Sending you good wishes @yellowlemon, it hurts me to think I’m no doubt being spoken about in derogatory terms, I find myself thinking of when I did nice things for them. It’s not helpful though, it gets me nowhere, and I need to re-direct my thoughts. So glad I’m not having to do any Mother’s Day nonsense this year - those cards used to make me cry.

Poppy

I wish you a full recovery from your illness very soon.

Your mother is more than just damn hard work; I would call her behaviours abusive.

I would also read about fear, obligation and guilt and read the Out of the FOG website. You are probably one of the very few people who actually at all bother with her because you've received special training from soon after birth to put her needs first with your own dead last. Leave her to it and do not phone her any longer. Have a read too of the Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers website. She does not deserve to have you in her life and your child absolutely needs to be protected from her too.

@Justmuddlingalong I'm having exaactly the same thoughts. Whatever I do will be wrong. If I ring l be told I didn't run soon enough or told about how my sibling hasn't called. If I don't call my sanity remains intact but it will be martyr fodder for my father. Can't win either way

Dolly

If in doubt do nowt. Do not call them.

Your wellbeing and mental health is far more important here than becoming martyr fodder for your father; a man who is your mother's enabler and secondary abuser. He has failed you abjectly as a parent too.

I don't know it's tricky. She's not abusive like some parents. She's just a pain.

That said, I'm terrified of how to be a mum to my DD, I don't want to be like mine

Poppy

What you write about your mother is she being abusive towards you. Its not your fault she is like this and you did not make her that way. What if anything do you know about her family background; that often gives clues. Your mother took the low road here and likely dished out to you what was done to her.

Many adult children of such toxic parents fear that they are going to be just like their abusive parent towards their kids. Those fears are more often than not completely groundless. You are not your mother and you are completely separate from her, you are not an extension of her. You would not treat your child like you have been treated to date by her so you won't become your mother here.

Consider reading the Out of the FOG website and find a therapist who has no familial bias to work through your fear, obligation and guilt.

Keep yourself and your child well away from her going forward; no good at all comes of maintaining any form of contact with her here. You would not have tolerated this from a friend, your mother here is no different.

I have a fourteen week old baby and live in London. My mum wants to visit from another part of the country but I want to follow the government advice. I have said this and said I will skype regularly and send videos, but she has said she will come anyway.

I’m unsure how to tackle this as I’ve spoken to her about the risks and she is adamant that she is an adult and can decide to visit. she has health conditions that put her at risk in addition. In the call she said even if she is just standing outside my building she will come.

I’m also quite angry that I may be in a position of having to ignore the doorbell knowing she is outside if I do stick to my judgement and feeling guilty. Also thinking that this is a critical moment in asserting my own decisions as a parent - prior to this I would always go with my mums decisions but now feel offended that she assumes she can insist on visiting. She ended the call by saying we would talk tonight but then got my dad to text to say ‘apparently we are coming’ followed by details of how the visit was going to work.

Feeling unsure of myself and unsure how to proceed - I really don’t want them to visit and don’t know whether to go down trying to persuade of risks route or you have to respect my decision route. Would really appreciate views of others!

Unicorn I agree this is the time to put your foot down and let them know that you are an adult and they can no longer order you around as if you are a child.
this kind of passive aggressive way of dominating people by just doing what you want regardless of what they say, just walking all over you is if you don't have a voice, it's fucking infuriating👿
Actually I remember similar thing with my parent, them insisting on visiting, me saying 'no it's not a good time for me' they reply 'but I still want to see you' the implication is that my wishes are irrelevant, all that matters is what they want to do😳
Fuck that shit👿
her argument is that she is an adult and can decide to do what she wants...you are also an adult and you can refuse to be visited or refuse to co-operate with her completely.
and this thing of them just visiting when they want to see you ....like they never even wait to be invited, arghhh, well I'm sure I've made my views pretty clear please let us know how you get on🤞😊

Really what your mother is saying Unicorn is that she has the final say on everything, she has the final say on what happens around your baby😳😲😳
That ain't right girl!

Thankyou so much, that’s exactly what I needed to hear! Having a baby has really brought up for me a lot about my childhood and behaviour of my mother and this thread has really helped. She didn’t visit for three weeks after the birth - don’t know why as trying v hard not to engage in games. Soo difficult not to throw this back at her and just remain calm and factual. Will just state again that I don’t want her to visit as it’s not safe and I will Skype and send videos. I am dreading her coming anyway but I’ll have to cross that bridge when it comes to it.. I’m going to text this afternoon after talking to my brother for support. He had similar problems when his daughter was born and now barely sees our mum, and I do want my daughter to have a relationship with her grandmother so am trying to manage this carefully.

Unicorn
Obviously you know best to handle her but I would think about the phrasing, if you say you don't want her to visit then you leave open an avenue for her to say but I want to.
Would it be possible to say something like I will not be accepting visitors until such time as'X' , or you will not visit me until I let you know that I'm ready to receive visitors.
Look at the strategy she used, first tries to wear you down during the phone call, ends the phone call telling you that there will be further discussion on the subject but then she changes tack and she gets your father to issue a statement informing you of what's going to happen.
her strategy may be conscious and deliberate or it may be instinct but it still is a strategy designed to make sure that she gets her own way irrespective of what you want
perhaps you could respond by issuing your own statement informing her of what is going to happen?

That’s really helpful I will do that. Thankyou!

He had similar problems when his daughter was born
My take on this is that your mother remembers what happened when your niece was born, (ie that she wanted to be in charge and your brother was able to successfully prevent this) and she's going to do everything she can to make sure that she gets control of the situation so that the same thing doesn't happen again.
She will assume that, compared to your brother, you are a soft touch because you are female...imo.
(I hope you can let us know how you get on because feedback helps us all to refine our strategies 😊)

I agree @unicorn79, tell her your decision is final, then don’t engage any more. Decide on your boundary, don’t flatter or excuse or apologise. There’s no excuse for her behaving like this.

@poppymatilda I really understand why you might retreat from the word abusive, it’s a big thing to accept. But from what you’ve written she’s refusing to see you as an adult and hasn’t allowed you to have any boundaries. It’s usual to try to appease people like this, afraid of their wrath, and minimise our negative feelings about them just so we can maintain a feeling of family connection. It’s that slow dawning of the fact that they’re not capable of a normal relationship in their current set of behaviours, and they’re usually unwilling to change.

Take your time, but defend yourself. It’s ok to not be in touch, you’re allowed to say you’re taking some time, and decide how to move forward.

I've been having a wobble over contact regarding CV. My enabling father has chronic health conditions and I do fear this could be the end of him if he gets this virus. I'm also worried about how narc mother will react when her chief enabler is no longer around to protect her....
I have decided to remain NC. I am 100% certain in my decision. I am very scared though about how it will affect me if he does die. I also don't know how I will find out?
When I had a newborn baby I got the flu so asked narc mother to come over to help me out for the day as husband was away ( this was before NC when I was still heavily in the FOG ) I sent the pleading desperate message at 6am when I could barely open my eyes let alone tend to my tiny baby. Mum rocked up at 11:30am as she had her own jobs to do... no rush to help her daughter in need, no concern for her grand child. She then proceeded to tell me she could only stop a couple of hours as she didn't want to leave the dog for too long 🙄
I started seeing her for what she really was around about then.
I think my parents might kill each other if they are stuck in isolation together with their dysfunctional ways without their social circle to hide in. And if alcohol gets rationed they really will self destruct...