"But we took you to Stately Homes" January 2020 onwards

[toomuchtooold]

It's January 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
May-August 2019
August-October 2019
November-December 2019

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Hi everyone. I haven’t posted for a while but have been reading the thread.

I’m struggling at the moment especially in view of the CV pandemic. I’m in a country that’s been quietly badly hit, though we’re all fine at the moment. I haven’t spoken to my M in over a year and not had much contact at all (bar 1 or 2 texts) this year. It’s just really hit home that she doesn’t make any attempt to get in touch to see how we are. I’m sure she knows that she went too far the last time I saw her and that’s why I went LC which has slid into NC. Yet there’s no attempt to try and make amends.

Whilst I know there’s nothing to be gained from having a relationship with her, I feel like I’m still grieving for the mother I wish I had.

Thank you Fanthorne you are right , why on earth would l want my Dd's anywhere near the toxic pair . I need to stop reating because they feed off it l know

Can I ask if anyone else is in a situation where they are NC with a parent who will have to go into isolation for 4 months? I am quite worried about my widowed mother, but haven't spoken to her in six months. Don't know what to do.

Hi all. I am reading with fascination and am realising my mother appears to have strong traits of both alcoholism and narcissism. (Whether one has an effect on the other is yet to be determined) I very much want to untangle and resolve as many knock on issues in my head as possible as well as learning coping mechanism for interacting with my family. I also would love to re-program negative and fearful thought patterns ingrained from an early age.
Which kind of therapy/therapist would be most effective and sympathetic? I don’t want to be re-traumatised or sucked into a life time of re-hashing the past!
Thanks in advance! Xxx

I’m not in quite the same situation roses; my mother is not yet 70 but has various medical issues that put her at risk, so I suspect she will self isolate of her own accord. She fortunately does have a partner though who is used to pandering to her and running round after her. I don’t know what to suggest regarding your mother, but I know how hard it must be.

I must say the pandemic thing is making me realise how little emotion I feel for my parents. They are not narcissists, I am not NC but maintain a wary and formal distance which is pretty easy given they don’t live nearby and aren’t remotely hands on parents/grandparents anyway. So it’s no different and I’m not feeling much concern for them at all really I’m far more concerned at the prospect of leaving an older friend (a college friend’s mum who was more like a mother to me when I had my eldest, I used to spend a lot of time with her before we moved away).

In another way I’m oddly grateful that, while I am getting huge waves of anxiety about the virus, it’s actually been useful distraction from other anxieties.

I’ve only got two more weeks on my Adverse Childhood Experiences course which I’m pretty sad about (although I guess any stricter measures from govt would put it in jeopardy anyway so it’s possibly a good thing as I’d be gutted if they were cancelled). The leaders have been absolutely incredible. I feel very “seen” when I’m there - I was struggling last week and they just KNEW, and spoke to me in the break. They’re trying to get funding for a monthly ongoing support group for course graduates, I really hope they are successful.

Random slightly off topic question - I love drawing and have been making cards sometimes since I got back into the habit. I’m doing thank you cards for the leaders of my other course as I know what they’re into (eg one is aaaaaall about horses) but I’ve no clue on these two, so I want something fairly generic that perhaps also signifies hope and change - any ideas please? :)

Lane how about a Phoenix rising from the ashes or angel wings or a Dove . Bless you it is so hard

Hello everyone, I hope you are all keeping mentally and physically healthy in these tough times. I've posted a bit here before but NC for this. I am struggling so much and need a handhold.

I've been NC with my parents (mainly DM) for around 5 months. I have no regrets most days or at least I have just buried the whole thing so I can get on with my daily life with DH and DD.

Last time saw parents and my siblings was at a family occasion early this year. DH and I kept it nice and polite for the sake of DD but upon leaving, got shouted at my DM on the doorstep. We left promptly. DF has made some attempts via text to contact me but tone is to basically forgive my mother for shouting. I did a very different thing to what I have done my whole life and actually texted back to say no I would not tolerate being shouted at.

Backstory is that DM is a volatile and possibly narc person. I have childhood trauma to this day of constant shouting and adult temper tantrums. Since having DD she has been equally inconsistent. Lovely mum and grandmother one minute (early days she helped with DD a lot) and then controlling and mean the next (telling me it's unfair that I've had a baby before my siblings, telling me I'm basically useless, actively ignoring me). Before I went NC, DM basically if ignored me and DH for around 1 year, including on 2 birthdays. A big mistake I believe was using them for childcare which basically felt like I was obliged to let DP look after DD and after months of being blanked by DM morning and evening, finally DH and I got told never to ask them questions about what DD ate or did during the day. So I went NC after that, apart from the few texts to my DF. No attempts from DM to contact me, despite reports from DF that she was distraught at not looking after DD anymore.

So with all this coronavirus happening, I've been feeling guilty and wanting to connect with my DPs. I texted DF to say hello, no reply. So I rang my DF in the week. We talked for 5 mins. He was not interested. I texted both DP today to say I hope they are keeping well. No reply from either.

So I should give up shouldn't I? They have zero interest in me or DD. Or am I just acting like a spoilt brat -which is how I think they will spin it.

Sorry that's very long. Thanks for anyone who's read it.

Hi Victoriapancake

Guilt is truly a useless emotion.

Would not at all bother contacting your parents here any further; no good whatsoever would come from doing so. Also no contact is precisely that; there should be no communication of any kind.

You have likely only bothered with your parents anyway because as an adult child of a narcissist and her enabler (women like your mother always but always need a willing enabler to help them and that person here is your dad) you have received special training from soon after birth to put your own self well and truly last. Your dad has also failed you as a parent here utterly too; he has stood by and let you as his daughter be thus abused. They were not good parents to you when you were growing up and they have not fundamentally changed at all.
Thank the stars too that neither of them look after your DD any more; toxic parents more often than not make out for being toxic as grandparents too.

Do think about getting some therapy re your own FOG here; fear, obligation and guilt are but three of many damaging legacies such people leave their now adult children. If you do seek out such a person ensure that they have no familial bias despite the presence of mistreatment. Interview such people carefully and at length too beforehand. Have a read too of the websites entitled "out of the FOG" and "Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers".

I would also now be aware of and wary of any and all approaches made by the "flying monkeys". These are well meaning but often all too easily manipulated relatives or friends of theirs sent in by your mother (in the main) to do her bidding and dirty work. I would also be on the lookout for any previously unknown health scares in either or them going into hospital for "tests".

Hello everyone, long time lurker here.

@Victoriapancake I really empathise with you, as I am in a very similar situation (currently NC with my mother although for me it's only been 1.5 months, and am weakening because of course, like you, I'm worried about my parents in the light of the Coronavirus threat).

I think you should try to just leave it now though. You've reached out and offered them an olive branch by ringing your dad, and texting them, and they've basically thrown it back in your face.

Love should be a two way street. They should also be concerned about/reaching out to you too. The fact that they're not tells you all you need to know.

(I will add though, that knowing all this doesn't take away the terrible pain of a lifetime of rejection and belittling. I have no idea how to heal that pain)

Hi SilverOtter

Do not weaken yourself further by at all contacting your mother. No good will come of resuming contact anyway and you would put yourself back at day 1. What would you want to achieve by doing so; she will never give you the approval you want and she will never be the nice mother you perhaps still want her to be. Its not your fault she is like this and you did not make her that way.

She likely has all sorts of people running around her anyway and if she was any sort of a decent person in the first place you would not have taken the course of action you did. As you yourself write she could have reached out to you and she has not done so.

These are difficult days for many, if not all of us. All the advice about protecting the vulnerable pushes our buttons, perhaps I can play the good daughter and get a different result? Surely a crisis needs action? Then there’s Mothers Day looming.

It’s very hard.

Just be very careful to listen to your own needs. Don’t take any actions without careful consideration. No one in a healthy relationship needs to be reminded to take care of someone
else.

Don’t take general advice as a personal directive. Nurture yourself and take time to reflect if you’re thinking about making contact. Write things down and work through why you feel compelled, and what the outcome is likely to be.

Sorry to moan everyone. I don’t have particularly serious grounds for complaint but I’m feeling really bad about the impending Mothering Sunday and the fact that I’m not in touch with my parents. Anything could happen to them, or to my aunt and uncle, and I just wouldn’t know. I’m in touch with my grandparents and am petrified that something will happen to them and I won’t know, also feeling guilty that because I’ve been in NC for six months I haven’t seen my grandparents for ages, because my mum visits them frequently and I’ve not been able to face the prospect of running into her.

My mum also decided that she was going to study at the same university as I wanted to do my PhD at (this is a bit outing, never mind). She’s started hers and I’ve just been rejected on my third application. I couldn’t take up my second because I was paying for psychiatric healthcare with the money I saved to pay my fees, and my studies have been so badly affected by family and mental health stuff almost from the beginning. It’s a relief that I won’t have to be around her, but also feels like a huge failure, and massively unfair.

Sorry for the rant. I’m thinking of all of you.

I think coronavirus is an excellent opportunity to behave as if you have intractable and severe health anxiety and go completely no contact with anyone who pisses you off
it's time to really pick up that social distancing ball and run a long long way with it 😊

controlling and mean the next (telling me it's unfair that I've had a baby before my siblings, telling me I'm basically useless, actively ignoring me
Victoria, she has provided you with more than ample grounds to completely cut her out of your life, any of this stuff, she deserves to have it all done back to her, take your pick ....
(if it was me I'd go with the ignoring part but go BIG with the ignoring ...make sure it lasts forever)

Hi all, just checking in. I've also been struggling with all the Coronavirus stuff (we are on near total lockdown here, with everything but supermarkets and chemists shut, schools shut, they even shut the playgrounds...) and wondering how my mother is doing. She is in her late 70s with high blood pressure and 40 years of smoking behind her. I would really like to be able to check in on her and see if she needs any help, like if she wanted online supermarket shopping sorted out or anything like that... but it's 5 (peaceful) years since I last spoke to her, and I know it'll just be the usual head wrecking nonsense, so I can't help. I don't know.

I have sent my
Mother a message offering to help if needed. I think that’s all any of us can do. Regardless of what has happened in the past I think it’s important to be compassionate. If we were elderly and house bound, how would we feel?

I am more than confident that the people I have cut out of my life are quite capable of manipulating other people into doing their bidding, and if that doesn't work they have plenty of money to pay people.
I will not be disturbing my peace of mind on their account, I have loved ones that DO deserve my help and compassion and they are the ones who will get it

Sorry to anyone struggling 💕

Love the Phoenix idea thank you.

ACEs course has been cancelled until at least after Easter. I’m sad but I know it’s the right thing really. I’ll focus on the cards for the other course leaders now (run by county council and heard nothing about closures etc yet).

Had therapy yesterday and that was brilliant, we spoke a lot about my fear of being needy but also how I’m improving at asking for help. :)

Ulterego I'm not going to either, it's just... another stage in the grieving process, I suppose. Why can't they just even be the slightest bit normal?

What Ulterego wrote

I hope your decision to contact your mother does not come back hard to bite you on the bum Rosesandiris because it could well do so. I would read about FOG (fear, obligation and guilt) Rose because you seem well mired in this and that emotional state will not help you at all.

They think they are "normal" with all others at fault or to blame. Its not our fault that these people are this disordered of thinking and we did not make them that way.

I do not have anything pertaining to a relationship with my MIL and to be honest she would not piss on me if I was on fire. She has not asked at all about how we are coping currently with regards to the ongoing coronavirus situation. It would not occur to her to phone here particularly if DH is not here. She is not bothered with me at all at any other time and she has ready made help in her other son/lackey who lives with her to otherwise fetch and carry.

I've been mithering about whether or not I should contact my mother to offer help during the CV pandemic. The FOG is strong, but I really don't think I can get sucked back into her manipulative, selfish and abusive behaviour. I feel really torn, but having me and her minions running after her will feed her superiority complex. Am I a complete bitch?

whether or not I should contact my mother to offer help during the CV pandemic
The manipulative narc types LOVE a crisis, it's the perfect opportunity to work on people
when feelings are running high they love to roll up their sleeves and get busy
when all is chaos whoever can seize the moment can harness the energy of said chaos for their own (dastardly) ends
they run joyfully towards the crisis, all the better to make hay while the sun shines
TL:DR
Sit on your hands Justmuddlingalong :)

Christ, Ulterego, you've met her haven't you? 😉 Thank you for the reality check. You're right, she'll be lapping it up.