"But we took you to Stately Homes" January 2020 onwards

[toomuchtooold]

It's January 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
May-August 2019
August-October 2019
November-December 2019

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Sending you positivity and good wishes x

@LaneBoy yes, I really agree with @Herocomplex ....... I go for a swim (an hour) directly after my therapy session on a Thursday night, it really helps me process the situation, then I get home and husband as dinner ready/ he asks how the session was and if I'm ok and that's it, nothing else. Then we settle and but something on the tv before bed!

It just takes me away from the session and although I'm a bit cold and don't feel like hugging etc it makes me feel much better!

Thank you ❤️

Totally agree about swimming and stuff. Unfortunately that is one thing I’ve had to hold back on due to my health issues and I’ve really found my mood suffering for it, but I’m hoping changing meds will fix that a bit soon.

Does anyone have anyone have any words of wisdom on letting your children see toxic parents?

I've gone LC with my parents for over a year now, I gradually backed away leaving longer between visits, so as not to upset my oldest who was close to them and used to seeing them once or twice a week. So now we're down to a few times a year, always me or DH there and preferably other people too. But now what?

To be honest I'd be quite happy to never see them again, there has not been one shred of regret or remorse from them. But, but, but, there are so many buts. I feel bad for my parents as I know how much they love to see the children; my dad who is an otherwise good man who is in complete denial about my mother's awful behaviour, my mother who has brain damage which means she can't not act on her nasty thoughts and desires. Then I worry that people with nothing to lose are dangerous and worry if I completely cut them off they'd start turning up at school etc. And finally, my biggest worry, that I'll do the wrong thing by my children. I don't think maintaining a happy family facade is a good solution and I certainly don't want them sucked into the fucked up ness when they're older. But then I picture piles of cards and presents presented to an adult DC, 'we just wanted to love you but your mum would never let us give you any of these...' How do you even talk to kids about this stuff? My oldest is really sensitive, I can see 'these people that we loved and trusted are actually nasty' fucking them up. What's to stop mum and dad turning bad? Or maybe they won't believe it? after all they are really fun grandparents.

I think that's all my rambley thoughts out of my head, any advice or experience will be gratefully received.

Sorry to butt in , l just need a place to vent and learn how to cope. Last night l really felt like l would be better off gone. I am not suicidal just very upset . This follows a few days of really stressful treatment by my sister and Mum and brother. To cut a long story short, the latest is, l was accused of 'losing' 'moving' 12 pounds out of my Mum's purse by my Sister. What upset me so much was the introduction of my name into the scenario being so readily accepted by my Mother. When the money went missing l wasn't even there. Yet suddenly l was the main culprit. I found the money in a tissue box by the side of my Mum the morning after. I suspect my sister of orchestrating this. Last night l had a phone call from my Mum. I am really upset atm. Mum phoned me last night saying we are not feeding the pigeons any more. According to my sister , 'they are stripping the bark off
the cherry tree Daddy planted', and 'the lawn is terrible where the feed has grown' like she could care less, it's all about having a go at me , the thieving of the money failed so now this , it's relentless . My sister is so cruel. She has tried this from time to time . She knows how much I love animals and how upset this makes me. I worry about what will happen to them after my Mum's days l am so sensitive, too sensitive perhaps but it is just who l am. I can't be any different 😭. When l said to Mum about it being cruel because they have fed them for years and years and they rely on it, she brushes my concern aside. Like always my sister is the golden child once again. Even after she spoke to her so badly last week and called her a fin old hag. I know this is perhaps childish to you but to me it is really upsetting 😭. I have nowhere to go l am so alone with all this . I have been to a couple of counselors but they just don't seem to understand how bad my famly are. They are all horrible people , so warped. I can't believe l am from the same bloodline as them. They are like aliens to me. I have been the scapegoat child all my life and although I am very fortunate with my immediate family, DH & 2 Dds , the rest of my family are cruel , using, back stabbing , lying, attention seeking, histrionic narcs and they are worse than that. I have simply brushed over the surface. Thank you for reading and being here for me and others to vent, it's a lifeline 💐

absea

If your parents are too toxic for you to deal with its the same deal for your children as well.

Your father enables and continues to enabler your mother's poor behaviour citing it as brain damage. He has also failed you as a parent here by failing to protect you from the excesses of his wife's behaviours.

Re your fears re them turning up at school, these are likely to be unfounded but you need to inform their schools that only you are permitted to collect them at home time. Maintaining a façade re them is indeed no solution here at all. Not every person is safe to have around.

You are the parent. You get to make these decisions without apology or excessive justification. You can assure your children that you are making a wise and loving decision for them as well as yourself. I am not going to script what you should say because you are the only one who knows your children, but you must convey that this isn't up for negotiation. This is not a decision that the child here gets to make. Yes, children usually love their grandparents. Children are often quite indiscriminate in their love which is why they need parents to guide them. Not every person is safe to have around and this is a good time to teach that important life lesson. The more matter-of-fact you are, the more matter-of-fact your children will be. When we act hysterical, they will usually reflect our hysteria. If you act anxious, they will act anxious. If you appear unsure, they will push. Model the reaction and attitude you want your children to adopt.

If you have another set of grandparents in the picture then focus on them. It is rare that both sets of grandparents are nasty. Emphasize to your children how much we enjoy being around grandma and grandpa so-and-so (the decent and loving grandparents). Cultivate your children's relationship with the decent, loving grandparents. Teach your children to be grateful for the decent, loving grandparents. Gratitude is a highly effective antidote to loss. Focus them on what they have, not what they don't have. Model that attitude of gratitude.

You will find that the children will eventually stop mentioning the loss of the grandparents if you are not bringing it up. If you are talking about your parents in the hearing of your children then you are inviting them to keep talking about it, too. I can not over-emphasize the need for your explanation to a younger child to be calm, pragmatic, measured and short. Long explanations make you look defensive which will tend to peak the interest of the child and prompt him to push the issue. You can gauge what is appropriate information depending on the age of the child. If the child is older and has experienced or witnessed the grandparent's nastiness in action then you can say more.

You're older and therefore more experienced which is the point of being the parent. The child is dependent on your good sense and protective wisdom. You're smarter than your child; use that to your advantage (such as using the distraction method). You are the final authority. This is not a negotiable issue. Your children do not get to decide on this one because they lack the understanding, wisdom, experience and good sense that, hopefully, you have. So don't look like you're unsure or open to quibble. You'll undermine yourself if you look anything but firm and resolved on it. Use your advantages as parent to smooth the effects of the cut-off. Over time this will all quiet down. Kids tend to accept what is. It will happen more quickly if you follow the above advice.

Most of all, do not operate from a fearful mindset. Don't be afraid of your children's possible, or actual, reactions. Don't be afraid that you are depriving them of something important by cutting off a set of grandparents. You are only "depriving" them of bad things. Reassure yourself with that truth. Family is not everything. Blood is not binding. You are escaping the Mob Family. What should connect us is how we treat each other with love and respect. This is always a good lesson to teach our little ones. If any part of you is unsure of your decision then, for Pete's sake, don't show it. Your resoluteness will go a long way toward reassuring your children that you are acting in everyone's best interest. If your children know that you love them, they are going to feel reassured that this decision is also based in your love for them. They will find an added sense of security to know that you, as their parent, are willing to protect them even at the cost of your relationship with your own parents. Rather than being fearful, see the plentiful opportunities in this. You are protecting your children from someone whom you've experienced as being abusive; you are reassuring your children that you are in charge and are watchful for their best interests (creates deep sense of security); you can teach healthy family values which include that family doesn't get a pass for abusive behavior; you can strengthen and reinforce the healthy relationships in your extended family. Kids are less likely to feel like there is a void in their life if you fill it with good things.

Cutting off from your parents here is a good thing. No need to act otherwise. Your children will sense it is a good thing by how you behave. Model how you want them to respond and it is likely they will imitate. Don't be afraid of their questions. Kids are amazingly resilient and well-equipped to handle truth. Parents are supposed to protect their progeny. If your child doesn't agree with how you go about that don't worry. They will often disagree with your decisions for their best interests. Nothing new there. It is your job as parent to make the tough decisions. If you know it is the right decision then proceed with confidence. Showing confidence is a quality of leadership. As a parent you are supposed to be a leader. Lead...and they will likely follow.

Hi Mrsmadevans

How are they able to contact you?.

Do keep posting here.

I would now block all means of any of your family of origin being able to contact you. You do not need their dysfunction and abuse in your life and dealing with them at all robs you of emotional energy that would be better spent on your own family unit.

Re counselling BACP are good but I would interview such people carefully and at length before choosing any particular one. You also need to find a person who has no familial bias despite the presence of mistreatment and who can and will fit in with your own approach.

What resources have you looked at to date online?. Reddit is a good resource re narcissistic family structures and the websites Out of the FOG and Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers are well worth looking at too.

Thank you Attila, l am NC with my narc sister & her equally horrible Dh almost NC with my brother, yet l am the main carer for my Mum and l can't leave her to the mercies of my sister and brother. I just can't. When we are together everything is fine but they just poison everything . Thank you for your support and kindness ❤️ l really appreciate it . I will investigate BACP and the other websites you have recommended thank you again for your time and consideration . This is off the back of many many years of abuse as you can well imagine 😭💐

Hi all, just checking in. I've recently had some breakthroughs in my thinking about my destructive family dynamics. I have a super poisonous stepmother and a mother who is a mixed bag but also definitely has narc traits. Going through a divorce from a decidedly narcissistic husband, my eyes are being opened to what I experienced in my childhood and how this led me to where I am now.

Thanks Attila, I appreciate you taking the time to respond.

It’s a real barrier though, stopping them seeing the children because it does feel like you’re punishing them. That’s why it’s so helpful to read Attila’s words. You’re protecting yourself and your DC’s, you’ve got to overcome that people-pleasing urge that’s been instilled in you. It’s never helped you before, so it won’t now.

della make space to reflect, it can feel like waves of understanding and realisations are crashing on your head at times. Keep those strong barriers in place!

I would like to add that the reason these types of grandparents make a 'pet' of their grandchildren, the chief motivation, the driver for their behaviour is that they understand very well that this this is a good way to draw you in so that they can manipulate and exploit YOU.
The children are low hanging fruit, easy levers to pull... Getting on the good side of the grandkids is like taking candy from a baby and then they use the children to manipulate the parents...

@dellacucina - I know exactly where you're coming from. It's shocking to realise how damaging these childhood experiences can be. We think we are worthless, because that is how we've been treated.

You will grow and learn through this, and come to realise that you deserve so much better.

What I experienced in my childhood and how this led me to where I am now
I concur, when I look at my own life I can see that I was in many ways a magnet for predators, my relationships have been extremely dysfunctional it was as if I deliberately invited these types into my life so that I could vanquish them, something primal in me wanted to make sure that anyone who tangled with me would regret it

Hello. This is long, so I apologise.

I don't post on these threads often as I'm NC and at peace with that. But I'm looking for some support please. 10 minutes ago an email dropped into my inbox from my mother, whom I am NC with. I'd blocked her from WhatsApp and phone contact 2.5 years ago and she must have finally clicked that her messages aren't getting through, not that I'm just not responding.

Her email said the following (names changed)

Hello Koala,

Hope you and all are well and happy.

I genuinely did not mean what I said in the way it came out about Bill & Ben, although, I understand why you were upset.

After all this time, we do have to find a way through this. I miss you all.

With lots of love to you all 💕

Mum X🌹X

The background is that for my entire life, she has only ever put herself first. Moved us all around the country in an attempt to get what she wanted (my dad to stay). Dumped us to live with him (literally, on his doorstep at 2am, after a 4 hour train journey). Decided six months later that she wanted us back (I was settled and thriving in my new school, I got home from school one day and there she was. I was on a train back to the other end of the country an hour later). Repeatedly allowed my brother to physically assault me as a teen. I put myself into foster care voluntarily (I went to the police station and refused to go home one night). Kept me in foster care with visits to her house rather than let my dad have custody of me. Prevented my dad from speaking to me for 4 years. Lied for years and told me that he didn't want to know me. Decided one day that she was going to let him see us. Rang him and offered us to him for New Years. Told me that he'd rung out of the blue (I found this out recently).

When my dad got married, I remember her cornering me in the living room to tell me 'your dad got married this weekend'. I remember the smirk she had on her face. She was trying to hide it. And failing. I shrugged (I was 15, I'd have been more upset if she'd had told me I couldn't go see my mates that weekend) and she pushed further by saying 'aren't you upset? He didn't invite you'.

The things she's referring to in my email are things she said about my children. My brother and dad had a quarrel (that she instigated) and it blew out of proportion for a few years. They weren't speaking when my nephew was born. When he was a year old, they buried the hatchet and my brother introduced them. My mother has always hated that my children call my stepmum 'Nana'. My brother also decided to allow this. During a text row about this with my brother, she wrote that my nephew was the only grandchild that ever felt real to her, because he didn't call my stepmum Nana (my DC are older than my DN). My brother sent me a screenshot of this as we'd been keeping each other updated on everything she said as her trick is to turn people against each other. She did not like this one bit.

I didn't go NC for that (though I was mightily pissed off), but it certainly helped make the decision for me. During the theatrics with my brother, it made me realise that I was stuck in the same cycle with her. This cycle had started because my brother was now sticking to his guns about something whereas before, I was the only one who did. The first I knew of it was when I got a stream of abusive messages from her, blaming me. Even though I live 150 miles away, and I had nothing to do with any of it I realised that she will always feel hard done to and that she will always make people suffer if they don't dance to her tune. So I left the dance hall.

I started thus post looking for support to continue ignoring her, or to ask if I should once again lay out exactly why I've cut contact,as she seems to think that it all hinges on one comment. It doesn't. It was 25 years in the making.

But writing all of this has been extremely cathartic and reminded me exactly why I'm NC.

So now I'm off to figure out how to block on Hotmail.

Hi Koala

Do block your mother on Hotmail.

She is hoovering you here and toxic parents, particularly those who are narcissistic and histrionic do such hoovering behaviour in an attempt to regain control.

Narcissists think only of themselves and getting their own needs met. If your needs get in the way of meeting their own, you lose. And in any situation in which you don’t lose, then she resents your having prevailed over her…no matter how legitimate your “win” (they see everything in competitive terms). You see, losing control of a situation or a person is very threatening to a Narcissist because only if they are in control can they feel assured that their needs will be met. So the minute you take control out of your mother's hands by going NC, LC, or laying down boundaries she cannot control, she feels threatened and she has to take some kind of action.

Radio silence from you therefore needs to be maintained. Do not respond to this e-mail from her; to such people a response is the reward and they know they have you then.

Thank you Attila. That was exactly what I needed to read. I especially enjoyed the use of 'histrionic'. Never has there been a better description of her.

The ‘we have to find a way through this’ leapt out at me, (as the child of a narcissist) it’s a command but makes it appear as you’re both responsible, but you know it’s her telling you to get over yourself.

I hope your adult life is happy, because it sounds like she did her best to make your childhood a misery. I’m glad you’re not going back, move on, be free.

You're right. It is a command. She misses us. So now I need to get over it. She's apologised, so I must accept that and let her back into our lives. No consideration or respect that I'm a grown woman who can make my own choices about what is right for my family.

You find that you are forever held responsible for your actions, but that you are not allowed to discuss their past behaviours?

My Brother phoned my Mum tonight and complained about me putting loving, kind messages like 'l love you Mum Happy Birthday ' or 'Have a lovely Mother's Day love you' on her FB page. He tried to say that he and my Sister love her just as much as l do even though they don't do that. So my brother doesn't do any SM at all, so l knew this came from my sister. My Mother knew it too and l don't think she was impressed & said my sister is filling my brother up with this nastiness. It is all a smear campaign of me from my Narc sister . I am so tired of it all . Tonight my Mum actually seemed to be reasonable with me but of course it will all change tomorrow. I sometimes feel like running away from them all. It makes me weary.

Thank you. For your support. I should come here more often to support others in return. I just find that doing that pulls me back into her world, so I tend to stay away.

adding my voice to the consensus Teetotal, just block, leave her twisting in the wind
'we have to find a way through this' oh really🙄
from your description the only way that I would contemplate being in contact with this woman would be in order to exact revenge for her appalling and despicable treatment of you
but I'm sure you have better things to do 😊
I remember something similar from my female parent 'what have we done to each other' we?? Nope it was all your own work you evil bitch🙄

I am so stressed my eyebrows are twitching all the time , l just can't seem to win , win what am l talking about even to be listened to would be a win, everything is so unfair. l will never get any closure. l am not allowed to have my say. l am browbeaten, interupted and even told to shush in my own home by my sister . If you could only hear the way my sister speaks about me it is so horrible. I feel like she has physically hit me when l hear it , l flinch . I am NC with her but l hear what she says and the way she talks about me to my Mum . She has always talked about everyone like this but l stupidly never thought she talked abou me like it . l thought she loved me like l loved her and all the time she was so horrible. l am beginning to think my brother is almost as bad . The trouble is l still love and miss her but l can't unsee what she is anymore . Thank you for letting me vent it really helps

Mrsmadevans, you don't have to put up with it all, you can run away, you can cut them out of your life😊