"But we took you to Stately Homes" January 2020 onwards

[toomuchtooold]

It's January 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
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Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
May-August 2019
August-October 2019
November-December 2019

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Gosh Laneboy something you said back there gave me such a big jolt of recognition. That idea of being needy with friends because you had no one else. I had a really bad relationship when I was at uni, I was completely head over heels for someone who didn’t really care about me at all, just wanted a fling. When he ended it (after only a few months, not even very long) I was devastated, lost the plot completely. Obviously it’s not unusual to get your heart broken, but I was distraught, unnaturally so, I didn’t know how to carry on. I guess that’s the feeling, I’d tried to find something and been rejected again, back to nothing.

At the time I thought I was just being silly and naive and felt ashamed to be honest. I just didn’t know how to look after myself.

And how could we have known how to look after ourselves? It’s understandable we didn’t. But yes. At the time it’s easy to hate ourselves for being pathetic etc, but in hindsight we just needed connection and we had no safe example of how to do that.

The course today talking about our childhoods was actually ok for the most part. I was open, a few others were who had endured violence etc. I found it easy to share and it was all very equal etc

The only difficult bit was when one of the facilitators referred back to something I’d already said about my mum’s childhood. I said how it felt like that was heading towards the idea I should forgive, so we talked a bit about that but I felt quite snappy and defensive about it. I felt anxious for the rest of the session (luckily not long).

I knew I’d struggle without closure to that conversation so I waited around at the end to apologise for being snappy - slightly fawning response there I guess but she said I hadn’t snapped at all (that just shows how I feel I’m being snappy just from asserting my views! I am normally very shy and unassuming) and that I had nothing to apologise for at all. We ended up having a nice chat about it and I explained why the forgiveness issue is such a trigger for me - that I’m really working on not forcing myself to the bottom of the pile and that the therapy I’m having (ACT) is helping me recognise that my feelings of it not being ok are valid (because even being hurt by the abuse wasn’t validated let alone the fact they still kept in touch with my uncle) and I can sit with that knowledge.

The meeting with my support worker was great too - we also chatted about forgiveness (she had already mentioned being NC with her mother before) and generally I was very open - talked about self harm etc a lot - without feeling needy at all.

Thank you all so much for the advice. I’ve only really had chance to skim (baby has just discovered how much fun it is to grab my phone!) but I wanted to say thank you and I will read more in depth when I get the chance.

I will maintain my boundaries regarding mine and baby’s ‘no contact’ (my peace of mind needs this) and understand/support DH in how he chooses to find his way through.

Thank you for the suggestions of keeping compliments specific and telling him when I value his point of view. I will try to keep to little things that I can show him evidence for and hope they build.

Hopefully, when he’s ready, I can point him towards these threads and the info in the opening post.

Thank you, although I don’t think I’ve always been very lovely - I can see now that I’ve made things much worse at times (our demons have played well together in the past!) but now I know better I can do better. The more I learn, the more it all falls into place and I recognise so much of my DH as I read through all your experiences.

I’ll check back in to let you know how it’s going at some point. I hope everything goes well for everyone.

Thank you Lane I remember one of my shocked and puzzled housemates coming into my room and saying that I needed to learn how to keep some of myself back in relationships, don’t give everything. It was really good advice and now I see what she meant, she meant boundaries, but neither of us knew that language.

I’m glad to hear you followed up about your tension around forgiveness, it’s best to get it out not take it home and brood on it. It sounds like an incredibly useful thing, your course. I’m glad you’ve got that.

MrsDugee it’ll be hard for your DH, I knew about this stuff for years before I put it all together with what was happening for me in my family. You’re right to bide your time, it’ll come. You are lovely, you can enjoy the compliment!

Hello everyone, apologies for barging in but I have just had a bit of hand grenade land in my lap and would very much appreciate some advice from you wise souls. My sister in law who cut me off ten years ago has just sent me a heart felt email on her and my brother's behalf about the epiphany they have had about my borderline narcissistic mother. I believe it was my mother's handiwork that caused her to cut me off but I don't really trust her. She has always been a difficult, alcohol dependent, over sensitive character and I was relieved to be shot of her to be honest but she is apologetic and honest in the email, acknowledging that I was right about my toxic mother all along and that they are now no contact and moving away from her too. She is hoping I will contact my brother but no pre. Help! What do I do?

Pressure not pre

I would ignore her email. You have not trusted her for good reason and you do not want to open that Pandora’s box.

First there’s no rush, it’s up to you when and how you respond, if at all. I’d be really cautious if I were you. Ask yourself how you really feel.

If it was me I’d have been a bit more open if it was my sibling, but I still wouldn’t be in a rush. Especially if they wanted to go over all the ins and outs of what has happened, you’ve done that enough I imagine.

Think long and hard.

Yes that is my gut reaction but the heartfeltness and honesty in it is very confusing. Is it possible for a flying monkey to have an epiphany? My brother is the golden child so for him to go no contact is a big deal. I am wondering whether to suggest family therapy with him to keep my boundaries up?

talk is cheap Dacquoise, it's not that hard to craft an email that feels heartfelt, I understand why you want it to be genuine, hell even I want that just reading your post.
Even if she has had an epiphany wont she still revert to type? Maybe cautiously give her the benefit of the doubt but be prepared to step away again if need be?

Dac why is it her sending it and not your brother? I'd be careful, you don't want to be sucked into drama.

Had a message from my mum today asking about the platform I sell my things on. She said she wants to sell her stuff on there. I'm wondering if she's trying to copy me and then gloat that she's doing better? I'm feeling uneasy about it. I didn't really give her much info about it

My brother is the golden child so for him to go no contact is a big deal
he may have occupied 'goldenchild seat' but I don't think that means his post is permanent, he will be dismissed as soon as he is no longer useful in that role. It's not the actual people that matter, you are all pawns on a chessboard to be moved around at their convenience, or maybe see yourselves as a set of golf clubs, the player uses the one which most fits his intentions at the time.

Dacquoise- have a good 1:1 with yourself and think about what YOU would gain from any type of contract.

(I have been in a similar situation and it didn't end well, people who are "under the spell" never really change - but that is for you to judge...)

Thank you everyone. It's so helpful to have people who 'get it ' on hand. I have decided to do nothing. I will take the email to my therapist but I am 99% certain to follow my instinct and not venture there. They threw me under the bus ten years ago. It's taken until they've been ousted to contact me so it's not really about me at all is it.

No, sadly it’s always about them. You don’t even have to read things if you choose not to, the first line usually tells you all you need to know.

Onward.

It's just a Hoover isn't it 🙄
Lure the poor old donkey back in with a carrot so you can beat them with a stick
A little technique to draw you out ...get you to trust and offer up your throat again
Don't get fooled again
m.youtube.com/watch?v=UDfAdHBtK_Q

Veterans on this thread. I need careful help, surgery level help.

Mother dearest is looking for way to get out of coming to visit! She's "worried" about Coronavirus, you may remember they're coming from AU to visit for the birth of my first child.

How do I handle this? I need an elegant solution that achieves the following outcome.

• so she doesn't come
• doesn't complain too much to me directly about it
• she gets the gift of secret martyrdom which we all know she is craving

Help plz?

Never mind, sigh, I think I offered cancelling their hotels etc too quickly. They're convincing me they're coming now. God damn it, my hopes were high.

Aah that’s annoying. Maybe you could keep talking about the virus when she speaks to you.

Or perhaps it was entirely contrived to make her feel like you were so desperate to still have her visit?

Dac I think it’s good to ignore. They’re just running to you now they need someone else. Pathetic of them.

This is very different from my usual posts and I’m not sure if it’s appropriate really but I’m kind of struggling more with DH’s demons than mine right now.

He’s started a course of weekly therapy which is very very much needed. His childhood was beyond horrific (basically as in “a child called it” except he wasn’t taken into care) and it’s the first time he’s properly talked to anyone but me about it. He keeps dissociating in the sessions and on the way home too. I’m really proud of him doing it. My own therapy isn’t so bad, I’ve had a lot before and I don’t get flashbacks etc, his are frequent.

But the issue is that he deals with stress in the opposite way to me. He withdraws and disengages. Whereas I need more reassurance, hugs etc.

My MH is really fucking awful ATM for various reasons (health, getting ADHD meds sorted, and while my therapy/ACE course isn’t reliving trauma per se it’s triggered some huge issues particularly around neediness like I said in previous posts) and unfortunately the ACE course is on the same day as his counselling too.

Generally we balance our needs really well. We are a great team despite both of us struggling (his health is worsening too, he had to stop work 14 months ago which is when his MH started declining). At some point last year we had the conversation about me not coping with the distance etc and how we have to work on it together to get a balance. And things have been so good. Despite being two broken people we work together really well. But then all these courses came through at once (thanks to our family support worker being super efficient and getting us into everything, plus a load of stuff for the kids who have SN - referrals etc) and throw in a bunch of life changes and it’s just too fucking much.

The point I’m getting to (sorry, it’s all spilling out) is that I can’t handle the inconsistency at the moment. It’s like I have two husbands. The super affectionate communicative one until Tuesday, then he gets replaced for a few days by this snappy distant one who I’m scared to even touch on the arm in case he flinched, and disappears upstairs for even longer than usual (he has to stretch out a lot because of his back etc anyway but it then gets like he doesn’t care that I need rest too, struggle with the kids etc).

This is the one time when actually I don’t think I should ask him to compromise. This is, other than the trauma itself (birth to 15 then abusive first marriage), the hardest thing he will ever do.

But I have zero clue how to get through this time either. The inconsistency alone is killing me let alone the feelings of rejection and loneliness. It’s not great for the kids either really as some days they end up with both parents struggling to do anything, and DD1 is especially needing our support at the moment too. Which is all falling on me. I have nothing left.

Not even sure what the point of this post is really! Thanks if you read it xx

That sounds really tough Lane.

The only thing that comes to mind is that you could make Wednesdays into a sort of self-care day, prepare for it, make a plan. Simple food all ready to eat, no expectations of anyone that evening. Think of ways to feel a bit nurtured. Some people find a walk or a swim after therapy really helpful. Even a bath/shower and a change into more comfortable clothes when you get home.

It’s useful when you’re feeling upset/lost/afraid to find regulation, giving yourself familiar things to hold on to and find a bit of stability when things are off kilter.

I think just being able to say you’re finding things really bloody challenging is helpful though, therapy is hard work.

It comes across how much you care about him, what a hard road he’s travelling.

Lane, could you get your reassurance and comfort from him at a slight distance? Perhaps wear his jumper?
And as Hero says, book a self care day with an activity you can do together but without demands- watch a film, have a walk... something where you agree it's together time, but he doesn't need to make any effort to reach outside himself.

Thank you both so much. It really helps to be able to say all that here! I’ve spoken to DH about the idea of making Tues/Weds easier, he’s on board but wasn’t able to discuss really. We even went on a little date earlier (incredibly rare, not like we have babysitters lining up) - his suggestion but he still was quite distant :( he’s not really gone back to normal this week at all, not sure if that’s because the counselling was worse, or new meds tiring him out, or the fact it’s also been an incredibly busy week with extra social demands (he’s very introverted). Trying not to worry this is just how it will be for the next 7 weeks to be honest. Tomorrow night he will be getting anxious about Tuesday anyway.

I really love the ideas suggested, thank you both - I’ll have a think about them. In the meantime I’m just trying to keep practical and make sure I’m contributing as much as I can to household stuff while also looking after myself.

Thankfully I think I’m through the worst of the MH flare (all centred around neediness, but for friends/professionals not DH, luckily despite this we are very secure in our relationship) although the best person I have to speak to about DH stuff isn’t around for a couple of weeks which is quite crappy timing

I’d get really tough on the social demands, make sure you’re doing what you want to do not what you think you should. Keep your family at the centre. Keep your boundaries in place.
Maybe write down what you would say to the person who normally listens, then read it back slowly and think about what their response might be. Sometimes I read back stuff I’ve written and it’s like it’s by someone else. Keep going 💐

Thank you ❤️ Unfortunately the demands weren’t optional for the most part (I meant social like being around people for meetings, courses etc as opposed to fun type social) but thankfully a few of them are over for now! I have four weeks left on my courses and that will help for a start once they are finished, although I will also really miss them because they are both fun and validating IYSWIM.

Had an actual discussion with DH today while toddler napped, I was asking how we can make the next couple of days a bit more bearable and he asked why, I said (kindly) basically you disappear for a few days each week and that it’s understandable and we just need to make make sure he’s ok and we get through it. He’d really not noticed himself being like that! 🤯 But he’s a bit blown away by me being understanding I think. I’ve said zero expectations on Tuesday but can we make sure we just stick something funny on the telly Wednesday night so we are together (but no expectation even for conversation, just want to be in the same room!).

I’m not feeling too well this evening anyway and tomorrow I have psychiatrist as well as my ACE course so this will be interesting.