"But we took you to Stately Homes" January 2020 onwards

[toomuchtooold]

It's January 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
May-August 2019
August-October 2019
November-December 2019

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

napac.org.uk

You’ll probably find this very useful. I’m so sorry to hear what’s happened.

napac.org.uk/

@Chickencuddle that’s sexual abuse and is wrong. You are not too sensitive. If anyone did those things to a child in my life I would make sure they were arrested and prosecuted.

Thank you I've never actually told anyone about that stuff. I feel like if I told anyone that it wouldn't be counted as abuse.

Not finished catching up yet but just wanted to say MrsD you sound so so supportive. I can totally relate to his catastrophising reaction to making mistakes, I am terrible for it. One thing that seems to be helping with DH and I (both abuse survivors with fuck all self worth) is being specific - it’s not been a deliberate strategy, it just seems to have come about as we are communicating better lately. So rather than general reassurance it’s like pointing out particular things as they occur. Like the other day I was singing the grumpy toddler to sleep and he picked up on how I’d responded to her etc. Both of us are uncomfortable with general compliments even from each other, because as you say, it’s hard to believe them. But commenting on particular undeniable examples of things we’ve done right is just that little bit more plausible and, drip drip drip, I’m even starting to believe that I am a good mother for example.

I guess it’s important not to go OTT and do a parent-of-small-child-style praise overkill! As that can be patronising. But it’s worth being mindful of specific compliments I think.

Chicken huge well done for writing that out, it took bravery when it’s such an uncomfortable subject. Awful abuse - you don’t need to be touched for it to be abuse. I’m sorry xx

Chickencuddle your post has just triggered a memory from my own childhood. When I used to stay with my nana ( mums mum ) she would put this movie on and in it there would be a woman getting out of a bath. I remember there being lots of pubic hair. She would rewind it over and over and laugh at the woman being naked. I can remember feeling uncomfortable but never really understood why.
It's quite minor but my 8 year old self didn't like it at all. Makes me squirm just thinking of it. I don't have lovely fond memories of feeling safe and loved with my grandparents at all. Just weird inappropriateness. Just one of the reasons I am keeping my children away from my mother.

pippy

That's not "minor" either, that is abusive behaviour from your grandmother. Its horrific behaviour from someone who completely abused your trust.

Chicken

Glad to see you found this thread. I hope it will be of some use and help to you.

Re your comment:-
"Thank you I've never actually told anyone about that stuff. I feel like if I told anyone that it wouldn't be counted as abuse."

Abuse like you describe, and it is abuse, thrives on secrecy. Your uncle (your dad's brother) also abused you and totally betrayed your trust. Did your parents accuse you of being "over sensitive" as well?. Did they make you think that you would not be believed or get into trouble if you had told someone?.

Please consider calling NAPAC; they could really help you no end here.

Ugh that’s vile too pippy :(

I am very mindful of not being inappropriate in front of my kids and have discussed this with DH. We are very affectionate as a couple and I think that’s a good thing (as in, modelling a happy marriage with hugs/kisses and compliments etc, all our kids are very cuddly too) but things like innuendo (especially now DD is far more aware) and heavier kissing etc just no. Ignoring boundaries of what makes a child uncomfortable (for example as a preteen becoming more aware and probably horrified about the idea that mum and dad do THAT) - it’s not ok and sets them up for abuse from others. IMHO.

Pippy also just wanted to say whether your partner is abusive or not in a technical/legal sense, whether or not you are safe, it is ok to leave a relationship in which you are not emotionally supported. Don’t set a threshold for your welfare - it’s enough that he’s not making you happy.

Gah. I feel there is loads more of stuff like this from my childhood that I really need to address. Stuff that I have always assumed was a little inappropriate but not serious enough to be classed as abusive.
I remember one family holiday my parents getting blazing drunk. I was maybe 9 sister would have been 7. On the walk back to our apartment I have the memory of my parents grinding up against each other against a wall and when my sister and I turned back to look at what was going on my dad screamed at us to turn around and keep walking. My sister and I were sleeping in the lounge and my parents proceeded to have very loud, verbal, grunting, moaning sex with their bedroom door open. I lay with my hands over my ears for what seemed like forever praying for it to stop. I can remember my mum having bruises on her arm where she had fallen off the bed at one point. I could not wait to get on the plane and leave the island I was that traumatised by it.
When I've recounted this story to my husband in the past he just said everyone hears their parents have sex when they are younger. I'm sure that's true, but the occasional bump on a headboard is slightly different to what I describe above isn't it? I have sleep issues now as I used to always sleep with ear plugs in and my tv blaring when I lived at home to blur out the noises. Makes me feel sick to the stomach thinking about it again. It's one of the traumatic memories I addressed with EMDR.
I had an unhealthy obsession with sex when I was younger. Always practising with my dolls, trying to find the word sex in books/magazines.
I've always just thought I was over sensitive too but it's since having children that I realise it's just not right.

pippy

re your comment:-

"When I've recounted this story to my husband in the past he just said everyone hears their parents have sex when they are younger. I'm sure that's true, but the occasional bump on a headboard is slightly different to what I describe above isn't it?

Yes it is. And no you were not over sensitive either. Presumably that was a charge often levelled at you by both parents here in equal measure. I think your whole childhood was marred by their abusive behaviours towards you and your sister. I presume she has no relationship with them either these days?.

I would urge you to contact NAPAC as well. What happened here to you and your sister here was in no way your fault or hers. This is ALL on your "parents" here, all of it.

And your mother's mother (your grandmother) was abusive as well.

Part of having an abusive childhood is not learning about appropriate boundaries, you’re expected to endure whatever comes your way with no complaint. Your parents see you as their property to treat how they see fit. Your feeling of self-worth is diminished, and you learn to ignore your own distress.

It’s a coping mechanism, but it has consequences. It’s why we need to understand what’s happened and find ways to help ourselves to find a positive way forward by putting effective boundaries in place around our wellbeing.

Pippy, I don't know anything about your DH. Sometimes when people with typical childhoods hear things like that they try and minimise it so it is less scary. Sometimes they think that will help you, other times just to avoid having to deal with what's been said.

If a child was playing with dolls in that way at school, we'd know to raise a safeguarding concern. It was very wrong that you were exposed to such things.

Attila I have never discussed these things with my sister. The theme in my family is that anything I say is all in my imagination and I make things up so I stopped bringing things up. She is the narcissistic golden child and my mothers mini me so would never hear a bad word said about her. I am NC with her and have been since going NC with my parents.
I hope one day she comes to her senses but I understand that is highly unlikely as she is totally enmeshed and highly invested in the family lie.

I also just wanted to say I relate to the wondering if it’s enough to be abuse. The poem I wrote about the other week is based on that.

I finally went back and finished my blog post about it. Having had therapy on Monday (she read it), and a trauma course session about trusting/making connections etc, I felt today was the day!

I didn’t want to paste the actual poem here because it (and the other stuff on the post) is potentially mega triggery. So here is the link (it’s the second poem I’m referring to above but the first has a similar theme), but I seriously won’t be remotely offended if nobody reads it, it’s not worth the risk for many to read this stuff. ❤️

theneurodiversenobody.wordpress.com/2020/02/25/back-to-creativity-and-being-vulnerable/

I love that poem laneboy. You have a talent.
Attila I was always told I'm oversensitive.
Also my family was very religious and they always referred to verses in the bible about us obeying parents etc. I was scared of doing anything against my parents and going to hell.
They portrayed themselves very much as amazing lovely people and always talked about everyone else in a negative way and tutted and looked down on people.

They would always say they got so much worse in their childhood "be thankful I didnt draw blood like my father used to" etc
My dad liked to scare us. Another thing that happened a few times was him holding me over a very high bridge and threatening to drop me. I remember crying and being terrified but so scared to move he just laughed at my discomfort.

Pippy I'm sorry this has triggered memories for you :(

Similar with me I have no contact with my brother. He said to me a few times he agreed with me then backtracked and said he didnt think they were abusive. Probably because he wasnt treated as I was...although there were still times he was abused too.
Interestingly social services contacted me to talk about him as his baby was taken off him for having bruises...,:(

Aw thanks so much chicken ❤️

Shared the post on FB and already had a message from a friend (not a close one) about similar experiences.

The course I’m doing (Adverse Childhood Experiences) certainly showed me you really can’t tell who has trauma.

LaneBoy, thanks for linking to your work, your poem really does resonate with me, trying to figure out how old I was by cross referencing, I also remember clearly the underwear that I had on, the floral pattern.

Chicken and Pippy, that was abuse, those people were/are despicable feral and bestial:(

Thank you for reading too ulterego I’m sorry it resonated so much. It bugs me that I don’t know when it happened or how long for. My therapist said it’s common for knowledge gaps like that to occur. It sort of makes me resentful I guess that I don’t know my own history.

I am SO nervous this evening. This week has been mad already - therapy yesterday, ACEs course today, and tomorrow it’s the session on my parenting course where we have to discuss our own upbringings and that of our parents.

We don’t have to share anything (both courses I’m on have Pass cards in easy reach) but I’m actually not worried by sharing exactly - I’m fairly open about stuff, if anything I’m worried I’ll say too much, and be seen as taking over and attention seeking. That’s a massive trigger for me. But I also know that if I sit there silently (which the leader will understand - she is my support worker’s boss and so knows everything past and present!) I’ll regret it as I’ll feel unheard. It’s a hard balance to find and either way I’ll be full of anxiety, replaying conversations etc after.

I also have a meeting with said support worker after (we requested an early help plan last year and it’s been great) - she deliberately avoided booking anything while this session is on so she’d be around if I found it too hard, but TBH no matter how tough it is I know I won’t leave the room during the session (we couldn’t leave unsafe situations as kids could we - just had to freeze and wait) so we are just having a catch up after. Which is nice, but I’m also worried about being too needy and vulnerable. 🙄

"worried about being too needy and vulnerable. 🙄"

A message we learned while young, that we are too demanding, too much trouble, always want more. You quickly learn not to ask.

My mother is the most demanding woman in the world, and nothing is ever enough, she always wants more. But she can't see it, it's everyone else that is the problem.

That’s exactly it pickle and it’s such a massive fear especially at the moment. This was kicked off big time by seeing my psych report where she’d written that we had discussed my EUPD traits we hadn’t. At all. I actually used to think I had borderline personality as a teen due to neediness, I was so so demanding of friends (because, as my therapist said, I had nobody else). But I’ve moved past a lot of that. However thinking about all that stuff again at a time I’m really struggling with past issues, being “seen” etc it’s really making a lot of memories and shame resurface about that time. My therapist did her doctorate in the overlap between personality disorders and autism (I chose her because she had a lot of NHS experience with autistic adults like me) and is adamant I show no signs of EUPD now but she’s noticed I’ve struggled a lot more with the fear of being needy and demanding since that report. It’s really messing me up because I need support at the moment and I end up so scared to ask. This is being compounded at the moment by a toxic friendship (trying to back away).

Feel a bit overwhelmed by the course and meeting today but I’ll post about that when I’ve processed it

The fear of 'making too much of a fuss' and being needy, is almost certainly a sign that you are not, I think. DM never never wonders if she's asking too much.

I'd say we can tray to avoid burdening a particular friend because they have a lot on at the moment, while still allowing ourselves to need support and look for it elsewhere.

I'm thinking out loud- it's relevant to me too!

Yes I think you’re right, when I use my logical brain. I really try hard not to demand too much of people, and also make a point of thanking people when they have talked me through stuff etc. This is a key difference between me and the friend - everyone is starting to recognise her demanding nature as well as lying, running roughshod over everyone else etc. I actually see a lot of her in many of the posts on this thread. The fear I’ll be seen as like her is huge even though when I look at the facts, I’m not.

I am also unequivocally a good friend. I make a lot of time for people, I check in with them. Even my support worker said today that she loves how I actually ask how she is and listen to her etc (not that she can actually say much obviously because of her job). So I KNOW I’m not like that.

But in the moment the panic sets in big time, and builds and builds so that I hide away.