"But we took you to Stately Homes" January 2020 onwards

[toomuchtooold]

It's January 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
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Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
May-August 2019
August-October 2019
November-December 2019

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Zelda

There is no need to apologise whatsoever and you are not being over dramatic. Your post describes the life of a scapegoat within a narcissistic family structure.

You absolutely need to be here on this thread .

People from dysfunctional families end up
playing roles and the role assigned to you by your parents here is scapegoat. Your sister here is the golden child, itself a role not without price but she is unaware of that.

It is not your fault your parents and sister are like this and you did not make them that way. You should ideally now have no contact whatsoever with any of them because your role here is to also serve their narrative, they really do think that you are responsible for all their inherent ills. It is really not possible to have a relationship of any sort with such disordered of thinking people.

Please keep posting here, you will get support and understanding, I would also read about fear, obligation and guilt and the website’s entitled out of the fog and Daughters of Narcissistic mothers .

@ZeldaPrincessOfHyrule

Speaking from experience and a very similar position to you, although my parents weren't as overt - run. There is nothing you can do to change this, they will not let you step out of your role and you will never get want you're looking for from any of them.

I haven't spoken to my parents or (golden child) sister since last January. I've grieved for the relationships I'm never going to have (and never actually had), I'm struggling a bit generally at the moment, but I have zero regrets about the decision to step off the merry go round.

Hi Zelda 💐

It’s weird we’ve never met, I know your story so well because it’s my sisters as well as yours. She spent all her life (until last year) in your position, with my parents painting her a silly, jealous, unreliable, profligate, overly emotional ,friendless woman. She is absolutely none of those things. She tried so hard to gain their favour but it was never enough, so she let them go, they’re not in touch now. She’s a new person, it’s incredible what a transformation it’s made to her. Not easy, but so much better.

Your parents don’t see you as a person, they’re swept along with a bizarre regime of punishing you for something you can’t atone for. Please get off the merry go round, it sounds dreadful. Let your sister go, she’s causing you pain. Read the recommended books and websites. Learn about how to stop all this.

I’m worried by your comparison with Caroline Flack, are you having thoughts about hurting yourself?

Oh @PenelopeCleary, I promise I hadn’t read your post, odd how we both used the merrry-go-round metaphor.

Thank you so much, I've tried several times to pluck up the courage to post in here, it's taken feeling this bad to do it so I'm glad I'm not in the wrong place.

"It is not your fault your parents and sister are like this and you did not make them that way."
Atilla, I think I do know this, but very very deep down, so it really helps to hear. I can't seem to step off the merry go round of trying to Fix Things. Everyone is miserable and I feel like I'm causing it by not just saying 'ok, I'm sorry, it's my fault please continue with the Zelda-bashing'

Penelope - I've tried going lower contact this last ten months or so and to an extent it's worked, my best friend and DH have both seen a change in me because my confidence is returning. Best friend says it's like when I was a teenager and I didn't care what they thought. I can't do complete NC though because we all live too close together and I don't think I could deny my kids their GPs. It's bad enough they don't see as much of their cousins, though S did go round when my DC were at our parents' house for the day on inset day earlier in January. That hurt quite a bit, because it felt like they were all facilitating S having a good relationship with my DC, but no one's willing to help me see my DNs, one of whom I met as a newborn and haven't seen since. Instead, I'm the crap auntie who's rejected her DNs. It's lose-lose.

Herocomplex I didn't mean to worry you, I'm sorry. I'm kind of worrying myself a bit. And Facebook being full of women fixing each others crowns somehow doesn't help at all. I've been guilty of self-harming for a long, long time and if I'm being brutally honest it's creeping up on me again. This is why I should've turned down my parents' invite to their house yesterday. I feel like I'm at square one again. I've promised myself and DH that I'll do a workout dvd later to try and make myself feel a bit better, exercise does sometimes help. I think I've just hit that point of despair where I can't see a solution that doesn't involve a hell of a lot more hurt.

@ZeldaPrincessOfHyrule - Hi and welcome. Exactly the same dynamic in my family too. When I was young my parents encouraged my sister to openly laugh at me if I ever tried to talk about how I was feeling, and then when I got upset about that I was being childish and over-sensitive.

It was like a game to them all and it's a game unfortunately I could never win.

My sister is now behaving to her children in the same way our parents did to us. So although she was the golden child she has never learnt how to parent and nurture, love and support children to grow into functional happy adults. I imagine that one day one or both of her kids will have enough. Of course by then they too will be damaged.

It's terrible how it passes through the generations but you are the special one in this situation as you have broken the chain and seen the behaviour for what it is.

As others have said keep posting and venting as much as you like. It's a really supportive place and the relief to find others who understand what you are going through is wonderful.

@ZeldaPrincessOfHyrule Just seen your post about lose-lose. It always will be. As I said a game you can never win.

Zelda We’re so incredibly pleased to have you here, it’s very hard to post these things initially, but so wonderful when it’s out there.

I’m glad you gave things you do to help you not to hurt yourself, you’re turning all your pain inwards because that’s what you’ve been trained to do. Would you be able to talk to your GP? You can find ways to deal with the pain your feeling in different ways, I promise you.

You’ve built up your family into such powerful beings and I hear your terror. They’re actually incredibly predictable - look at the pages and pages of posts about people just the same.

There is hope, you have a future, you’re right it’s not easy. But it’s absolutely possible. Hug your DH and your DC’s, do something nice. Post here if you need to get things off your chest. Don’t give them any headspace if you can help it, they’ve taken enough now.
My very warmest wishes to you.

@Herocomplex great minds

@ZeldaPrincessOfHyrule I understand how hard it is. The only thing I'd say about your DC is that you clearly have their best interests at heart but I doubt that your parents and sister do. If they treat you that way to your face, think carefully about how they may speak about you in front of your children.

You should be proud of yourself for not following the parenting example you've been exposed to and for choosing a much more positive and loving approach for your DC.

Thank you all so much, I feel so weak today when I've been so strong for ages but you're all wonderful for being so kind and it's really helping.

Yellowlemon - my sister has zero resilience to anything because she was brought up so differently to me and DB, and right in front of our eyes. Everything is about sparing her feelings, from the positive things (when DB and SIL bought their first house - it was all about putting a lid on their excitement so S wouldn't get upset she wasn't in a position to buy a house yet) to the negative things (I miscarried at 11 weeks while S was also pregnant but further along, and had to support her through my loss). She crumbles at anything, so while it wasn't as bad as your relationship and being laughed at openly when expressing your feelings, my hurt pales into comparison to hers and so is mocked. Like last night, when I was told to 'grow up' because I was upset. I push my emotions down and hide them, so while people think I'm really strong and not a 'crier' I can sometimes be accused of not reacting the 'right' way, whereas S will cry at the slightest perceived criticism/problem/bump in the road and gain all the sympathy from everyone around. And means she can do no wrong, because the focus becomes her upset, not whatever is happening. So she can scream and shout but cries about someone calling her out on it and makes herself the 'victim'

I probably should see the GP, I'm terrible at self-care though so without wanting to sound like a martyr I tend to put myself to the bottom of the list.

Penelope this resonates with me - "The only thing I'd say about your DC is that you clearly have their best interests at heart but I doubt that your parents and sister do. If they treat you that way to your face, think carefully about how they may speak about you in front of your children."

The incident that initially kicked off all the problems last year was between our children. Her eldest hurt my youngest at school, and not for the first time. I carefully broached the subject of how we move forward so the DCs maintain a good, close relationship and inadvertently caused WW3. I know I did it carefully, because my incredibly diplomatic DH helped me word everything kindly and carefully. Long story short, they whole incident was minimised and my DM ended up going in to the school to find out more info to add to S's defence and it was honestly insane. I stuck up for my DC, and I wouldn't do anything differently even knowing all this. But I don't trust any of them round the DC, I expect they'd quiz them on stuff or minimise any hurt/incidents that might happen between them and their cousin. I 100% believe they'd cover something up rather than admit I was right to be worried all along.

Your mum went to the school?!!! That’s outrageous. They sound completely controlling.

You need to walk away now from your abusive parents and sister.

Your parents, sister and in turn her kids are all abusive. Your golden child sister will raise her children to be golden children within this dysfunction whilst you and your kids
continue to be scapegoated by your parents.

These people will continue to use you and in turn your children as scapegoats for all their inherent ills.

Your children need emotionally healthy role models as grandparents and your parents do not fit the bill here. You will not be depriving them of grandparents if you were to decide not to see your family of origin any longer. You are worth a lot more and for that matter so are your children. With any luck they will turn on each other if you walk away.

I would look carefully at different schools for your children to attend

What are your husband’s parents like? If they are nice concentrate your efforts on them.

It would also be an idea for you to seek out a therapist and one at that who is vastly experienced in narc family structures, you need someone with no familial bias

Zelda

Like many scapegoats too you have been conditioned to put them first with your own self and needs dead last

Break free of these people and their tyranny!!
You do not need them in your family’s life and besides which you would not have tolerated any of this from a friend

Yep - Mum went to the school. I wish I was making it up, it sounds bonkers when I write it. She picking up DN and went in to bring up the incident and before I knew it the whole thing had been minimised and I was suddenly a liar.

Atilla - DH's parents are amazing, they're nothing but supportive and loving and if I hadn't meant DH and them when I did I think my life would've turned out very, very differently. They've welcomed me in for almost 20 years and showed me what families should be like. Interestingly, they're also a three child family, and DH's mum has a different, but equal, relationship with each of her children. You couldn't find a hint of favouritism. It's like all three of them have a 'role', DH is the eldest and the playfully-competitive one, SIL is the middle and has a really close relationship with her mum because they share so many hobbies, BIL is the youngest and the affectionately-teased 'baby' of the family. I used to think their dynamic was this incredible rarity, but I've come to realise it's actually just what a normal healthy family relationship is like. I'm so grateful I've got them but I'm very aware they're not 'mine' and it upsets me I don't have that with my own parents. It seems unfair.

I’m willing to bet your parents are jealous of your in-laws Zelda, are they?

Actually they do seem to like them, they're hard not to like! But my parents will often 'copy' them in little ways. Like when the in-laws moved house suddenly my parents cleared out a bunch of stuff and started looking at houses and visiting new developments. Nothing came of it though. It isn't 'mean' jealousy, as such. And actually writing that about the house hunting rings true with how my sister deals with things - if someone else is getting something, she'll want it too, like a house or a second child.

Ah, that’s good then, not too stressful.

We hear you Zelda!
when I read your post the phrase 'industrial scale gaslighting' comes to my mind, there is no point engaging with them they will only ever see things in the way that suits them, dont even bother, go to therapy instead, you cannot work with people like this, you can only learn to manage and control the damage they do
I begged for them to acknowledge how well I’m doing in my life at the moment and how hard I’m working
stop, stop right there, get up off the floor never apologize to these shits again!!!
The more you prostate yourself the more they will tread on you, turn your back on them

I know what you mean @ZeldaPrincessOfHyrule that you see your dh family and see that your own family are not like that .
Mine are selfish but because I'm the one who's pulled away and decided no more Im the selfish one . My dh family are so lovely normal , they spend time with us and enjoy our company as we do too no nasty falling out , it's alien to my dh the way my family are .
My dad messaging me to see my mum because she's ill apparently. But will they message my other brother who is like a saint in my dads eyes No and even if he did he won't go round .
My mum is in the middle but I agree she definitely enables him why I don't know because it makes life easier or a quiet life Who knows .

Your parents sound like they like to keep your s sweet because they don't want to upset her . It's possible she may be a favourite to them I know my dad prefers my dB because he tells my dad what he wants to hear and I don't .
It's all about control too they can't see that this child they brought into the world and in their eyes they own has a opinion and personality that don't think and feel the same as them .
My dad I know reading about narcissism now that his mum was classic narcissism , he desperately wanted her love but he never got it and she favoured his sister . I refuse to allow that to me but I worry that I'll end up like him totally fucked up and my kids hating me .
Sorry I've rambled a bit but I'm worried about my mum but annoyed that she hasn't text me to say she's ok . My dad almost revels in her illness , I really wish I could get her away from him sometimes.

Lol, we're in the overly nice phase of the cycle. Got a message from my mum saying "Hi darling is that all the accommodation we have booked ?" She must be drunk and or really wanting to get the dynamic back. Being called darling by her makes me want to vomit. She never does that unless she's crawling out of her skin.

She also is trying the "please for the sake of your father tactic" where she thinks I'll talk to Dad because we have a better relationship. That used to be the case, and while he's nicer, he's her enabler. Not falling for it.

Travel agent is out of office, will respond in 3-5 biz days. Lol.

@ auslass - my mother does the father thing, too. It used to work very well.

Spodge - happy I'm seeing through it and actually have the kahunas to ignore it. Yay.

Narcissist mother is still squirming. Now going through old photos on facebook of my and hubs and writing "nice" things. I want to VOMIT.