"But we took you to Stately Homes" January 2020 onwards

[toomuchtooold]

It's January 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
May-August 2019
August-October 2019
November-December 2019

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

I haven't posted for a while getting on for 12 months now as life has been relatively quiet. I last posted after my dad sent very nasty messages to me about me , my dh in-laws . A lot what he said was untrue too so basically lies . Anyway this resulted in 1 of my dB not speaking to me because he listens to my dad . I said this last time but I have never once reacted to him I just simply said I was done and him to apologise for these outbursts as I no longer want to see him. My dad has refused to apologise ever as he doesn't think he's wrong .
Fast forward to now I see dm every few weeks she comes to me and we regularly text . My dm has in the past struggled with her mental health had severe depression on and off throughout my childhood . I last saw her Sunday she was fine was a bit upset that she had been invited to evening only for her nephews wedding . I agreed that it was unfair but apart from that she was ok I thought .
I get a message this evening from my dB ( the one I do speak too ) it was my dad but using my dB WhatsApp to tell me my mum had a breakdown and that I should go and see her .
I text my dB to ask and he confirmed that she was upset about the wedding drinking and wanted to hurt herself. She's ok now but if I can go and see her sometime .
I was really upset on this news and definitely go and see her as soon as I can .
Of course now I have that if I see her I'll have to see my dad which makes me feel all anxious and angry again after what he said last time .
So now I'm sat here upset and worried about my mum and the thought of seeing my dad again fills with dread .

Just to add I imagining that it will get the emotional blackmail again , I'll get told look this is upsetting your mum and making her ill so just speak to dad . I'm undeterred that he must apologise to me I don't think I'm unreasonable. He can't think he's ok to say lies and nasty things and not to even apologise for it .

Hey @lilly0102 it sounds like you’ve got yourself to a better place. don’t forget, they’re your boundaries, you decide what happens.

idontlike789

Sounds like you’re being punished for standing up for yourself. I understand you’re worried about your mum, but it sounds a bit suspect that things were so bad, according to your dad, but now they’re better. Over a wedding invite? Why is that your responsibility to sort out? You can’t live your life as a hostage, it’s just not fair.

It sounds like your mum really needs some proper help, is your dad sorting it? Or your brother?

This might sound heartless, and if you want to help her then go ahead but don’t do it to the detriment of your own health. Separate the problems out from one another.

Or don’t, and start letting them sort out their own problems like adults.

I agree I thought it odd regarding the breakdown.
I think they my dad and dB want me to go and see her to cheer her up .
I'm a bit annoyed that they expect me to drop everything to go round .
I've no idea what they are doing about it , I know my dads quite dramatic so I think it's unlikely a breakdown more like she got upset after a couple of drinks .

It does sound like bizarre behaviour about the breakdown. It’s a completely over the top response to something that may be, yes a bit upsetting but not something to lose your mind about .

My first post about this here - I’ve had a pretty long history of upset and disappointment with my father. He provided everything that I needed materially and met none of my emotional needs. As a child I remember him locking me in the car when I took too long to get out after school, then yelling when I got out and it set off the car alarm. When I was a teenager I told him he was being a hypocrite and he called me a fat lazy pig to teach me a lesson for ‘name calling’. He had arguments with both sides of my family when I was young and then just didn’t go to any family events again. He claims he wasn’t in the wrong in either argument, and that it didn’t affect me because I was still allowed to go and see my family. When I was a young adult I saw him threaten to hit someone for being too noisy in the waiting room. Recently he had another fight with his side of the family about my grandmother going into aged care which he didn’t want. She has very advanced Alzheimer’s and difficulty breathing, and caring for her at home has become to much for my grandfather. He said very harsh words to everyone and copied me into the emails he sent ‘breaking up’ with them.
At this point I stood up to him and said that it was totally not right to copy me in to those emails, that his behaviour does affect other people and I’ve had enough of the arguments that he keeps exposing me to. I confronted him about his past aggressive behaviour, said I found his anger frightening and said that if he wants me around he needs to think how his anger impacts others. He completely denied that it had any impact on me. And this is where it gets bizarre. He said that he didn’t punch the guy, only threatened, and that the other guy could have been martial arts trained or had a knife so he was the one in danger actually. And that the “stress” would change his behaviour and that I should look up how stress helps people do well in sports and life in general, so I should look it up. he then said he didn’t want to drive me away but that I’m doing a good job of achieving exactly that. Like I’ve done something wrong to be upset with his behaviour. I have young kids and while he’s been a loving grandparent so far, I’m really worried my kids will start to see this behaviour when they’re a bit older. My mum is still married to my dad and he emotionally abuses her, with guilt, storming around mad, she walks on eggshells. I don’t want anything to do with him really, but can I keep my kids away from one grandparent, and can I do this when it would hurt my mum so much? So confused and in pain right now. It’s another two weeks till I can get in to a counselling appointment. I’ve come to realise he will never understand my feelings or why his behaviour is wrong. He claims he just does want he wants and everyone else is free to do the same. Has anyone been through something like this or have insights?

@HadAGutful he sounds exactly like my dad . He behaves exactly as he sees fit and sod everyone else .
Before I went nc he would actually ignore me I mean if I said bye Dad nothing no response it was like he was annoyed with my presence. My dm would make excuses say he's tired and later when I brought it up it's his medication. My dm also walks around on eggshells depending on his moods .
It's difficult with the dc as I put up for years because I didn't want to be the one that made it difficult for him to see dgc . It's funny when they were young he was a brilliant grandparent but as soon as older not interested. You need to do what makes you comfortable you can make arrangements with one parent but I know it's difficult.
The situation I had tonight I'm certain it's to manipulate me to make a move to come round . I don't believe she's had a breakdown, I believe she's emotionally vulnerable but all that's gone on and she's got upset about the fact that's she's invited to evening not the day of a wedding . It may have been the straw that broke the camels back but she's spent her whole married life ignoring my dads bad behaviour . I'm not going to be manipulated.

What your dads doing is so common it has a name - DARVO -it stands for Deny,Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender. It’s a classic move by an abuser, when you object to something they do to you they tell you you’re wrong, how dare you, and show you how they’re the real victim, not you.

You’re so used to keeping the peace that you feel confused and go along with it, maybe even apologising.

It’s bullshit. Spot it, call it out, stick to your guns.

Lol after my enabling Father's peacekeeping call after the most episode of ignoring and withholding from my mother, my mother has called and "been nice". The narcissist cycle is complete. Taking bets on when the next cycle will begin. Any takers?

Lol after my enabling Father's peacekeeping call after the most episode of ignoring and withholding from my mother, my mother has called and "been nice". The narcissist cycle is complete. Taking bets on when the next cycle will begin. Any takers?

Hadagutful

Your mother is also playing out her roles here in your family of origin's dysfunction.

Typically a narcissist manipulates an enabler through alternating abuse and special treatment. The enabler falls into a pattern of avoiding attack while also seeking rewards such as affection, praise, sex, or money. In this dynamic the enabler experiences trauma bonding with the abusive narcissist, becoming emotionally and physically addicted to the roller-coaster of positive and negative reinforcement.Enablers of narcissists may come from narcissistic homes or other environments in which they learned to subjugate their needs and feelings, such as in service to an alcoholic or mentally ill parent.

Enablers may delude themselves into thinking that they alone can understand and fulfill their difficult but special partner. They may see their partner as somehow a great catch and believe they need to do extra work to keep him/her. Perhaps their partner feels a bit out of their league—more intelligent, good looking, charming, educated, wealthy, or successful than they are and therefore worth the high maintenance they need to do. Similarly, a narcissist’s favored and enmeshed child may be under the delusion that s/he is the only one who can manage that parent’s happiness. Such children often construct their identity around the demands of the parent, constantly working to please and appease.

Your mother is really your dad's secondary abuser along with being his enabler. She gets what she wants out of this relationship with your dad and has stayed with him really for her own reasons. She has also abjectly failed you as a parent too and she has failed to protect you from the excesses of her husband's behaviours.

If these people are too batshit or otherwise toxic for you to deal with, its the same deal for your kids too. Neither were good parents to you when you were growing up and they have not changed since that time. They are also not good examples of grandparent figures to your children either. Children need emotionally healthy role models as grandparent figures and yours do not fit the bill.

auslass

Their nice/nasty cycle of abuse is a continuous one and could recommence at any time.

Honestly I would rescind their invite now; what can they do other than screan and moan or threaten to cut you out of their will?. You do not have to take their phone calls.

You have a sibling; what is his relationship like with his parents?.

I do not think your time with them will be at all a happy one and they'll likely moan and whinge the whole time about the weather, their jetlag, you, your child and or your H whilst you are expected to be waiting on them hand and foot.

I was not all that surprised either to see that you are expected to pick them up and drop them off. I presume too that you will not be reimbursed for their week's holiday in Scotland either.

Atilla - thanks so much for all your advice and knowledge, it really helps not feeling so alone. I have decided it's not worth the craziness and sheer hell of rescinding an invite. I have seen her in crisis (when my brother didn't come to my wedding) and it's really not pretty at all. I thought long and hard about it and have drawn and stuck to some very clear boundaries.

Just before posting my first post, these are the rules I came up with.

• stop sharing updates on whatsapp of what hubby and bump are upto, and disbanded the family whatsapp. She requested I set it up again but thats way too much admin. Won't be bending that rule.

• ceased helping plan their trip. I had booked airbnb's, hotels etc and planned it all, have simply sent the emails on saying "here is everything" mum asked for clarification on things, but its all in the bookings. Sent her back to those.

• when they come, not collecting them or being their chauffeur service, suggested they find a hire car and sent the them the TFL link.

She isn't stupid and obviously the lack of help has been noticed, hence her being nice again. Not falling for it.

My brother is the scapegoat, get did worse than me in that he got hooked on drugs and never left the small town, he still lives with them, and is unemployed. I was lucky, managed to get out. We don't talk because of other reasons, he's done some hurtful stuff himself and doesn't want help with his problems.

Omg the wills, the wills!!! Lol if it wasn't so f-ing sad it would be hilarious... every time I talk to her she mentions how she needs to sort them out. Honestly no amount of money is worth hearing about it, basically an excuse to whine about my brother and how she can't give him power of attorney, because he's a bit of a mess himself.

So have decided they're coming but the damage they can inflict will be very limited. They won't be able to cause much trouble, not going to let them.

Oh and I was planning on helping with the trip, but I have updated all the bookings with their credit card details, so not helping anymore.

I have seen her in crisis (when my brother didn't come to my wedding) and it's really not pretty at all
Auslass, imo this is part of her Modus operandi, when something happens that goes against her interests she goes into 'crisis mode' the strategy here is to create so much fuss and trauma that the people around her will do anything they can to avoid having her go into crisis mode. Another way of responding to her Modus operandi is to just completely cut her out of your life and then it doesn't matter she's in crisis mode because you won't have to see or experience it.
the toddler can lie screaming on the floor and kicking their legs as much as they like if there's no one there to witness it what's the point?
They won't be able to cause much trouble not going to let them
she is completely convinced that she has an absolute right to do what she does and so if you you try to limit contact she may just try and squeeze more of her activities in to the limited time that you give her. Instead of a lower level attack over a long period of time you get a very concentrated attack in the short amount of time that she is allowed to access you.
She sounds like an absolute batshit craycray nightmare Auslass, much like the person that I used to call mother, which entity still stalks this mortal realm god help those poor souls who are subjected to her wrath

Ulterego - this bit... which entity still stalks this mortal realm god help those poor souls who are subjected to her wrath

God lord that's gold. I hope you're a writer. Missed your calling if you aren't

I don't think I have the heart to cut her out right now. I keep thinking, its been drilled into me that families stick together and you "have to" have a relationship. I know thats not true now, but I'm wondering how I set an example for my daughter that instills that sense of bonding and family, but also shows that people (even family) have to earn that love and respect. She'll be too young to articulate this to, but she will not be too young yo see it through love, respect etc. I hope I do a good job for her.

I do however have the heart to create a lot of emotional distance and boundaries while I stabilise and make sure I'm ready to be an awesome mummy. Becoming a mother myself really has put her behaviour front and centre. Must avoid at all costs!

Thanks Auslass, I'm not a writer but I'm very flattered at the idea that it could be my calling ☺️
I totally get how hard it is to cut them out completely, I think it's often about feeling that you need to have sufficient grounds to do it, that there has to be be one big thing that makes you go 'nope that's it we are done'
You sound like you have good instincts for protecting yourself and when you've taken the steps that you outlined you'll be able to to see how she responds and formulate a strategy going forward, the volatile batshit types who shoot from the hip tend not to be good strategists, you will easily outmaneuver her if you can keep a cool head 🙂

Be very careful auslass that you’re not doing this to punish her, LC and NC isn’t about revenge for bad deeds, it’s about self-protection.

Everyone makes their own family story but its often those ideas of bonding and family that imprison abusers and victims in a fiction. That’s the FOG.

Be very wary.

It really is not possible to have any sort of a relationship with a narcissist. Your parents are really empty vessels without anything to offer you.

Self preservation auslass is necessary here. I think that with the time they have here, they will go all out to cause you as much upset and pain as possible. You will be so very glad to see the back of them.

Herocomplex

It might be a little about punishing her, its hard to balance how much I give them vs protecting myself from more ignoring and minimising.

I put loads of effort into organising their rental accommodation, a holiday and things to do, because I wanted them to have a good time. They are flying a long way. So when it goes unacknowledged and I decide to stop putting effort in, from my perspective its about preserving that effort for healthy relationships where effort is valued and appreciated.

It would of course feel like punishment to her, even I can see that. I'll try hard to find the right balance.

please keep posting here auslass if you need a place to vent when they’re with you. I hope they are on their best behaviour.

I hope you try hard to keep your boundaries in place, that’s the main thing. What your DM thinks of your behaviour is up to her, you can’t change that.

Herocomplex will definitely keep updating, have three months til they arrive I'm sure I'll have updates on her behaviour. She can't be nice for that long!

I really hope it's ok to post this here. This situation is becoming impossible for me to deal with, but I’m fully aware that it’s not that big a problem compared with others so I’m really sorry if I’m posting in the wrong place or being over-dramatic.

Things are rapidly reaching breaking point within my family - DM, DF and, by extension, my sister who I’ll refer to as S. In the last year I’ve started trying to assert my boundaries and it’s resulted in all hell breaking loose. My parents frequently talk about how awful I am: I’m ungrateful and selfish mainly. I put them through so much pain and anguish all their lives. I'm lazy and crap with money. I take them for granted, I use people and I never think of anyone except myself. I'm always looking for how I can use people for my own gain. I've largely ignored this and instead tried to prove on any occasion I can that this isn't the case.

S is the key to - though not the direct cause of - a lot of the current bad feeling. We had a huge problem between us last year. I’d tried to raise a very delicate issue with her calmly and kindly, she shut down the conversation and instead of talking to me, went to our parents. DF tried to get involved and I stood my ground, saying we were both grown-ups and we’d sort it between us.

The following week she screamed at me in the street and then blanked me for four months. And I mean turned her head and walked away when she saw me every day. That sort of blanking. This was supported by my parents, who said she’d felt attacked by me, I wasn’t to contact her and try to talk about it, and that she’d been signed off work due to all the stress. S was five months pregnant at this point.

The baby was born, we were all invited over to my parents’ to meet her, and of course we accepted. It took so much strength for me to go there and face her. I prepared myself for an awkward conversation, and maybe some sort of moving forward. Instead, S acted as if nothing had ever happened. She asked me how work was going, spoke in her usual sing-song voice and left me completely reeling. It was horrendous, I questioned everything and I even asked DH later whether I’m such an awful person that I’d make the whole thing up.

Now, I don’t see S or her family, so I haven’t seen DNs for months on end. I sent Christmas gifts to the children, she sent ones to our DCs and to us. The only contact we’ve had has been texts to say thank you for said gifts. I’ve kept mine polite and generic, she’s been extra breezy and jolly. I can’t get my head around any of this.

Any time I speak to DPs they tell me how awful it is for S. How hurt she is. How crap I am. How hard she works and how selfless she is. What an incredible mother she is. About all the things she has to worry about and how life has dealt her an awful hand but she just gets in with it gracefully. A mutual friend of DPs and mine joked recently (without provocation form me) that they talk about her 90% of the time. Whenever I try to talk about how I feel they roll their eyes and repeat that it's always all about me.

Last night, I saw my DP on my own. This was a very bad idea, I’ve hit rock bottom again after yet another session of listening to how shit I am, how perfect she is, and even how they’ve both spent years apologising to people for me and my behaviour. I know there’s supposed to always be a way to rebuild relationships, or fix things, or find forgiveness, but there isn’t. I can completely see how someone like Caroline Flack though there was no coming back from where she was because sometimes there just isn’t. There’s no fix. Even if I grovelled and begged (which I’m ashamed to say I did last night - I begged for them to acknowledge how well I’m doing in my life at the moment and how hard I’m working) they might say all is forgiven but they’ll still think all the same things underneath. They’ll never change their opinion that I’m the shit one and she’s the Golden Child. And it’ll leak out time and again in their classic PA style. Again, I’m ashamed to say I finally said outright last night that it feels like S is the favourite and was told to ‘grow up’ by DM. I’m exhausted, I can’t keep hurting this much and I just don’t know what to do. I can’t see a solution that keeps my boundaries intact and isn’t just me forever atoning for my sins.

I’m sorry, this is really long and really self-pitying I just needed to get it out I don’t think there’s anything anyone can say because I just don't see a solution. All day I've been back and forth over the idea of texting S to say we need to talk. I don't know if that's a horrific idea after the disastrous evening with my parents last night. I don't even know if I could stomach talking anyway.

Please forgive me if this is in the wrong place, I don’t mean to cause any offence by presuming my problem is on a par with this thread, I just desperately needed an outlet and I’m home alone for half term without DH and the kids, which isn’t helping.