"But we took you to Stately Homes" January 2020 onwards

[toomuchtooold]

It's January 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
May-August 2019
August-October 2019
November-December 2019

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Yes manon that sounds so familiar!! And using triangulation through your cousin but that back fired.
I really regret not following my dream I still love it now but in that industry I'm too old and I have a DS now. I mostly blame them for not being supportive. I would have learnt so many life lessons living away instead I relied on her which she absolutely loved.

Yes, I feel like Ive missed out on so many experiences because of her. One of my cousins lived in Australia for a year and she was like a totally different person when she came back, she'd matured and grown so much in confidence. It had done her so much good being away. Yes her parents and siblings had missed her and worried about her but they understood that it was something she NEEDED to do for her, for her own self growth and they encouraged wholeheartedly.

Nothing Ive ever done has been supported. I remember when I went to look at the Uni I ended up going to. All the other parents were so keen but she spent the whole time moaning and complaining her legs hurt and her shoes were rubbing her from all the walking around campus, she had no interest whatsoever.

She has no hobbies or interests outside of us.

Sorry to jump in with my own stuff (I swear usually I am much better at the give as well as the take but that tends to go out the window when things are so bad) but I had a huge revelation today that I feel I can share here. Although it’s probably obvious to many, I keep getting these moments lately.

So earlier I was a bit upset by my support worker not being as, well, supportive as I’d hoped about something I told her. I really like her generally, she has been fantastic, and being upset with her and feeling like she let me down is massively triggering TBH (I am currently hiding in my room in a bit of a mess).

And I realised why, it’s because I can’t handle the thought of being angry or upset with someone who cares about me. I was thinking back to when I first realised how badly my parents let me down, it’s got to be that really. Because I don’t have anyone else. What happens if I am angry and hurt by the people who are meant to look after me? It feels so unsafe.

I tried being angry once. I found a postcard from my uncle addressed to them as if nothing had happened. Absurdly I was almost more upset that I wasn’t included. But I summed up every bit of courage I had and I went and said to my parents, this isn’t ok. How could you keep in touch with him.

Got cut down instantly, it wasn’t even that they got defensive, or even if mum had said you know what I actually just really miss him, he’s my brother and I can’t give it up, I could have tried to understand her honesty. But she didn’t even feel the need to do that. I just wasn’t allowed to feel anything at all. My therapist recognised that as a pivotal moment for me - I think I gave up hoping then.

I was also thinking recently of when I was discharged from the psych hospital at 16, before I felt ready. I didn’t want to go home. I was perfectly safe there physically. But knowing how angry I was with them, and yet they were all I had, I wanted to stay in hospital instead.

And I kind of feel like that is a permanent issue with me now. If I get angry at someone who is meant to be caring for me, it feels unsafe. I have nobody else so I have to keep the relationship with my caring person happy and perfect at all costs.

Does that make sense?

@laneboy it makes complete sense. I guess would you say it's some form of a defensive mechanism to save yourself from any hurt?
I get what you mean by not wanting to go home. I used to just want to stay out anywhere apart from being back at home not knowing what kind of mood my mum would be in.

I'm really sorry you're going through this. I guess we all help each other on here. Some of us are at the beginning of our journey, some in the middle and further on. And it's also nice when people can point things out that you might not have noticed before.

But she didn’t even feel the need to do that. I just wasn’t allowed to feel anything at all
it makes complete sense Laneboy it's painful and humiliating to be just dismissed and shut down like that when you have so clearly been wronged, and for that to be done by your parents, people who you need to have in your corner:(...of course you didnt feel safe, of course getting angry will trigger all those feelings and make you feel unsafe.

Thank you both so much. It really does feel very safe to share here. I’m writing a lot more lately, as otherwise I’m pretty much living in my own head. I don’t feel like I’m a very good or “present” mum to my kids at the moment (although I can at least guarantee they are still better off than what I had).

I agree about the defence mechanism. It’s like I just can’t let myself feel bad things about others so I shut it down. My “fawn” response (that was a recent revelation - I knew I freeze instead of fight/flight but fawn is my other go to) is absolutely in overdrive and it’s probably a good thing my support worker is away for a few days so I can’t act on it.

And at the same time I’m telling myself maybe it’s a good thing I’m upset, because I’ve been so terrified of losing her (we will be discharged at some point) and maybe it’ll be easier if I don’t see her as the amazing support she has been until now.

Also I meant to ask, can anyone recommend (by PM if that’s safer) any FB groups for PTSD and that sort of thing? Perhaps specifically CSA survivors.

Also MH/self harm tbh.

I do generally find FB groups to be a lifeline - I’m in several for autism, ADHD and the various physical health conditions I have. But this topic makes me a bit too wary of just searching and joining everything available in case some aren’t supportive, so if anyone does happen to have recommendations it would be fab. 💐

Just checking in, I must find more time to pop on here and not just take with my own things!

Just as a very small update, have started just not replying to the messages from my gran. She messaged me at 8pm last night saying she hoped we were okay and sending love. Sounds okay and fairly normal but not in the whole context of her not being able to let go of me as per previous posts. I didn't reply as I didn't see anything to reply to and need to break the cycle of her gaining emotional gratification from me (and due our baby tomorrow!)

As I didn't reply, I had another message this morning just saying 'love you name'. I know where this will go in that she will probably have an emotional breakdown with me not saying it back or replying but have to be strong and break the cycle. I actually feel strong not replying yet considering replying takes me back to a place of massive anxiousness and guilt.

Had a look over the 'fog' website too, very helpful and definitely found she has many traits, especially of avoidant and dependent. Was also really interesting to see how it can affect the other party - there was an example of how someone affected by someone with a PD got married, not because they wanted to but because it was more of what they felt they should or had to do based on how their interactions with the PD family member had shaped their behaviour and thinking. Thank you again for being there and helping me start to take some control back

Sparkle wishing you all the very best for the birth tomorrow, hope it goes well.
Concentrate on that, yourself and your new baby.

If you’ll take it from me as advice? Block your Grans number for now, while youre dreading texts and calls you’re making yourself anxious which you don’t need. Ask your partner or someone else to let her know when the baby arrives. Don’t get drawn in. Breathe, relax.

Just got this email - thought it was pretty cool and interesting.

Oh god yellowlemon a dreaded day. The number of times I’ve walked out of card shops with tears in my eyes after searching for a card that wasn’t an actual lie.

A dreadful day. My mother would have a strop about cards with Mothers Day on them so a few years ago I bought a load of cards with Mothering Sunday on them that I stashed for future years so I wouldn't have to go through the ordeal again.

I thew them all in the bin a couple of weeks ago. It was so cathartic.

So after our fight I haven't spoken to my dad nor has he reached out, I think I'm comfortable with LC from now on, obligitary cards and possible meals but I will be bringing my DH with me as a shield as he won't talk to me like shit in front of him .
I'm the black sheep but I feel comfortable and happy within myself for the first time in my life , I'm not a little girl anymore I'm not powerless I can choose when and where we have a relationship.

Was sent here by lovely Mumsnet users, this is an amazing read.

Basically, I'm about to have my first child, a daughter, and being pregnant, I often think about the way I want to parent. I get these horrible flash backs of things, and more and more come every day. Firstly I acknowledge that the abuse I suffered wasn't physically violent, or sexual, and my heart goes out to people like that, but what I can remember and continue to remember is affecting me deeply, and it continues to this day. I'm pretty sure my mum is a narcissist.

As part of having the flash backs, I have taken to writing them down, would be awesome to get thoughts and how people respond to this type of stuff. xx

Memories:

Once, when I climbed the roof of a neighbours when I was a kid (I climbed things, kids do that) instead of dealing with the problem and disciplining me, she told the neighbour I was not a normal kid, that I was "retarded", she told me she felt like she had to say this to excuse my behaviour.

Once, when I was a kid, I had done something naughty, I don’t remember what it was but I do remember my mum berating my dad into punishing me, and my dad came into my room, and he couldn’t do it to my face so he said, "what’s that?" and pointed to something that wasn’t there, when I turned away, he kicked me and then left the room. My dad is was and is a classic enabler

Mum told me when I had children she hoped they would be just like me, implying I wasn’t a good daughter or kid, she also told me not to have kids, implying kids ruined her life

Mum being a massive drinker all my childhood (and still, probably), listening to music super late and keeping me and my brother awake, would often "arrange pills" as if she was going to take them, and she knew we were watching her do it.

She Never accepts apologies, instead, throws it back and doesn’t accept it or ignores it and gives me the silent treatment, and then has dad come and make peace, doesn’t face up to anything or acknowledge she can do things better

Gives in order to impose conditions and expectations for things in return

ofor example, when my cat had an accident and lost his leg, my mum kept going on about the money it cost at the vet (can still remember $1200), in order to illicit endless gratitude. Instead of waiting for me to get over the shock of seeing our pet that way, she kept on about it. I was an adult not earning much money, but could have paid her back had she asked in a mature way for me to contribute

oUsing the payment of my wedding to try and invite a load of people I didn’t want at my wedding. She used the excuse, well I’m paying for it. Using it as a control tool.
oLoaned me money to get out of debt then used it to try and emotionally blackmail me into doing certain things, and when I didn't do something she expected, mentioning the money

oUsing our upcoming new baby as an excuse to martyr herself and seek reassurance and praise – like buying things and then saying that it’s not a good gift and my mother in law can get better things, wanting me to affectively parent her and puff her up, when that’s not what buying things is about

Humiliation: when I had a breakup with a teenage relationship, she would tell her friends that “I got dumped like a hot rock” repeatedly, and go through her phone book to have conversations about it

Parenting the parent: When my mum and dad separated once (she was cheating), Mum took me a long to tell my Nan, and have me stick up for her and support her because she couldn't stick by her decision. When the affair partner ditched her she came back to my dad.

Getting drunk and making fun of me playing the clarinet (my childhood instrument of choice) to her friends saying “people who play that and are good at it only sells CD’s for 2 dollars” instead of being visibly proud to others or me

Being unsupportive of me and my move with my partner to the UK – not acknowledging nice things at all, ignoring anything positive that happens to us.

When I try to stand up for myself and say things are hurtful, Mum doesn’t acknowledge, and instead has dad come in and tell me how hurtful my messages are (which are the ones where I stand up for myself) He only takes into account her perspective, my feelings don’t matter at all. This has happened for years and this time the comment was “well I hope you work it out” followed by a change of subject. Then mum tries to call as if nothing has happened. And when I don’t quickly forgive, I’ll be the one at fault. Not her, she’ll be the victim to her angry daughter.

That's all I have for now, sure I'll have more flashbacks at 3am.

Lol yellowlemon not laughing at your ordeal at all, but rather the cards saying "Mothering Sunday"

Wouldn't it be awesome to develop a line of cards for Narc Mothers?

There are plenty of examples of such cards for narcissistic mothers online. Sadly I do not know how to post such examples here.

@auslass Oh I can laugh at it too now. How pathetic that you can't actually be happy to get a card from your daughter but have to make a song and dance about the fact that it says Mother's Day instead of Mothering bloody Sunday. I'm also going to use the money I would have spent on sending her flowers this year on myself.

And yes to the line of cards - I reckon there'd be quite a big market.

Going to take a look, I think we could create a new card empire!

auslass

Your mother sounds like a narcissist with your dad being her willing enabler. Women like your mother cannot do relationships at all and always but always need a willing enabler to help them. That person here is your dad; her secondary abuser as well as her enabler. He has quite happily thrown you as his daughter under the bus so as not to be in her direct line of fire.

These people were NOT good parents to you when you were growing up and they have not changed. It is really not possible to have a relationship with someone like this and I would not even bother with her any more. The only reason you probably do still at all bother with her is because you have received special training i.e you are now the adult child of a narcissist.

I would keep your parents well away from your child going forward too. Toxic parents like yours more often than not are toxic as grandparent figures too. They will harm your child in not too dissimilar ways as to how you have been harmed.

Honestly I agree, I keep reading about the behaviours of these people and they set of so many alarm bells. I'm so afraid I'll parent like they did because its all I knew. How do you move forward and prevent it from perpetuating? My mother's mother was exactly the same. I'm worried about passing it down forever.

Toxic dysfunction like this can and does filter down the generations. You are different from your mother and grandmother though in that you have two qualities they lack; empathy and insight. You are your own person with a right to a life of your own. You are not an extension of them.

I cannot emphasise enough the narcissist's absolute and total lack of empathy here. Your mother took the low road here and parented you in not too dissimilar ways as to how she was likely herself parented, she never sought nor wanted the necessary help.

Many ACON's (adult children of narcissists) often have this fear that they will become like their parents but this is a fear which is groundless. Do read about FOG (fear obligation and guilt) and have a look at the website entitled Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers. You may also want to look at some of the books mentioned at the start of this thread too.

And keep your child well away from your parents going forward too. Your child needs emotionally healthy role models, neither of your parents here fit that bill.

Thank you for the help and for listening! Its really hard to think about all this especially in pregnancy.

On the front of avoiding them, lines have been drawn and I'm limiting contact with them while I work through this. Issue is, they're flying to Uk for the birth (from Australia), here for a month lord help me.

Given you've been so amazing with your advice so far, what's your suggestion? Tell them not to come? Do I bother even telling them why? I already figure trying to resolve this would be impossible. So maybe its worth suffering the month and calling it quits afterwards?

I would rescind their invitation as of now; undoubtedly your mother has likely already moaned about the fact they've got to fork out money for such a visit (such people are mean with money and mean with love). That alone is good enough reason not to see them.

What good will seeing them do and what will they do all day apart from moan, expect to be waited on hand and foot or otherwise criticise you, your DH and your child rearing skills. This is what you could well be signing up to if they come for one month.

Do they expect to stay with you?. Please tell me they have at least got a hotel room or a long stay serviced apartment to stay in, if they do not they should not visit. They should not be staying with you and they will between you drive you mad along with ruin your early days at home with your husband and child. The writing was on the wall here really with these two a long time ago.

You must know my mother, that's exactly what she'd do. Rescinding the invite would be a gift that keeps on giving to her. She could complain about the money, the meanness of me keeping her away from my child, and she could be a victim over it for years. So much fuel!

We have only just moved and have a very tiny rental while we complete on a house we just bought. So the plan was always to have them in a airbnb and we're sticking to it. But the expectation is that I pick them up and drop them back (with a newborn to think about). I did book them a 7 day holiday in Scotland so we could have a break.

@auslass
You must know my mother, that's exactly what she'd do.

Hi and welcome. When you've been here a bit you'll find they all do exactly the same things. They act like they're so special but there is nothing unique about them at all.

Someone way up thread said it brilliantly - they are parents with nothing to offer.

Take Attila's advice. She will ruin everything and then those precious memories that you should cherish will forever be ruined.