"But we took you to Stately Homes" January 2020 onwards

[toomuchtooold]

It's January 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
May-August 2019
August-October 2019
November-December 2019

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

I also think they understand at some level that they need to keep up a constant barrage of interactions with us so that we are overwhelmed and we don't really have any space to understand what's happening, that being the case you need a period of distance so that you can take stock and really reflect on your own feelings and what you want.
She keeps up a constant presence in your life so that you are kept off balance and unable to build up a proper defence against her, you need to build a big strong fortress around yourself and pull up the drawbridge.

Oh my god this has really blown my mind. This is so accurate for what happens anytime I try to get a bit of space to think about things. Thanks for posting it @Ulterego

Also, does anyone feel like now everything is clicking into place, they feel so angry and sad about EVERYTHING even though the thing that made it click into place was relatively small? Like the last straw type thing? I’m just having lightbulb after lightbulb of incidents from my life and it’s making me so sad. Sad for child me and sad for now me because it’s really shaped my life. But the thing that made me realise about my mum was just a small throwaway comment so it almost makes it seem silly to be upset. I don’t know. I’m rambling!

@IWantT0BreakFree I can empathise with your post so much. My and my children’s lives are intertwined so much with my mother’s that we are quite trapped. She’s also played me telling me one thing and other people another similar to how she pits you against your dad. It’s amazing how similar these type of people can be!

Bold fail there sorry!

Yes heists I have those awful realisations all the time about things that happened. It’s like seeing a film from a completely new camera angle. When I first came here I mentioned we’d moved house lots of times when I was growing up and it was explained to me that it’s part of a pattern to isolate you from other people. I was so shocked.

Just a small throw away comment
a small thing can be like a key to unlock the whole puzzle and suddenly you see everything clearly
👁️👁️ I hope you can escape from the entanglement Heistsare
The keeping up a constant presence in your life thing also makes me think of them wanting to cast a spell over you, I'm never sure if it's a deliberate conscious strategy or just instinct though, because how would you know, they're not going to tell you are they?

Thank you both for your insightful views and advice ulter/hero. It's actually really helpful to see it from an outside perspective. I think the hardest part is being directly involved and struggling with the guilt it has made me feel; surely it must be me with the issue because for so long she's expressed that it's all out of love, but, actually it's incredibly damaging.

hero My partner finds it all a bit too much as he's not used to it; his GP's are very much there for him but in the background on a much more mutual ground so he's never experienced it. She's started trying to seek small validation from him too, she bought him some PJ's for Christmas, although he doesn't wear them and everytime we've visited since, she asks him if he's worn them yet. It sounds so small but I feel there is more behind it!

I will definitely take a look over what you've recommended. I guess it's about changing my mindset to remind myself that I am important and if I don't agree with or like something then it doesn't mean I should have to put up with it for someone else. It's quite a scary realisation to come to but one that definitely needs to happen! Thank you

Sparkle
your grandmother tried to sabotage your health as a child she will absolutely do the same to your child given the smallest opportunity, she's like toxic treacle smothering you all
just as Hero said she doesn't even see you as a person, she refused to acknowledge that there was anything problematic about you being severely obese as a child because it wasn't a problem for her, she enjoyed giving you food and seeing the results of that as you grew larger and larger, the fact that you were obese made her feel good
how fucked up is that😖
She is a feeder, she is pathological, she will destroy you, you must escape

Sparkle, the pyjamas she gave your husband?
Hmmm, well given her complete lack of boundaries I wouldn't be surprised if she is laying the groundwork for interfering in your sex life, she's opening up a channel to let her see what happens in the bedroom, the pyjamas are a kind of crowbar allowing her to prise the door open😣🙈

Gifts are not really gifts from narcissists, they’re methods of control. There’s a useful little saying - gifts should come with ribbons not strings.

Although it’s exceptionally hurtful to think about these people are not capable of love, they do not want the best for you, they want the best for themselves.

Think about the way you feel - upset, confused, constantly on-edge, worried about doing and saying the wrong thing, anxious about their mood, anxious about phone calls and meetings. Always thinking ‘oh she means well, she doesn’t mean it, she had a crap childhood’.

That is not your fault and not your responsibility. Believe me.

And just to underline, I would say everyone on here spent years thinking it was their ‘fault’ it only they could be better then everything would be lovely.

The only change worth making is to stop believing it, nothing you can do will make them better, they choose not to change. And why would they? You’re exactly where they want you - under their thumb.

My dad is a narcissist and pitted me and my sister against each other growing up. She was the smart, beautiful child and I was the ugly and thick one. He went off her when she became a teenager and answered back and generally I am the favourite, but as I don't have a partner I am still sometimes an easy target, so I have to keep re asserting my boundaries with him. Its backfired as me and my sister are very close and she sees the abuse and validates it with me. She has her own issues too, but throws herself into work as a way to deal with it.

I have developed BPD as a result and also been in an abusive relationship myself. I'm very good at looking at myself and my flaws and have had therapy for four years to work on myself and manage my BPD (which I do pretty well). The abuse has had a lasting impact on me and I have awful self-esteem and struggle with feelings of guilt that I'm not good enough for my child. I have counselling every week and despite everything I am a pretty good parent.

My mum is an abused women still by my dad, but won't really acknowledge the abuse to me and my sister or to herself (she uses alcohol as a coping mechanism). I love my mum, but after doing the freedom program I now see her as a broken woman and see she was emotionally unavailable growing us because of the abuse. I don't blame her for not leaving and appreciate how hard it is to leave these types of relationships. I have broken the cycle by leaving one myself for my own children's sake, as well as my own.

One of my mums only source of joy is my children and I still let her see them, but now I am single my dad seems to think its fair game to be abusive to me and also started bullying my children and favouring one over the other and getting them to engage in games of picking on each other with him. My daughter is pretty strong minded for seven and will tell him if he's being horrible etc. My daughter now tells me she hates my dad and he's nasty as he only likes boys and that he treats nanny like a servant. If my dad is bullying my children I will immediately telling him to stop and if he doesn't I don't make a scene and I just leave with them and won't make contact with them. I'm not sure what else I can do to show boundaries and protect my daughter. I always explain after what he did wrong and how it's not her fault etc. I want my mum to see my daughter, but I don't want her to be abused and I want to know what I can do to have boundaries with my dad to protect my daughter and how I can teach her what's healthy and explain his behaviour or do I have to cut them both out for good.

Hi unhappy it’s really bloody hard but you’re enabling them. You are still putting yourself last, and although you’ll hate hearing it, your children.

Your mum’s needs don’t come before yours. She’s chosen her path. I think you’ve done incredible things in your life, living with BPD is unimaginable for me, you deserve much more happiness than you’re getting. Trying to manage your parents is impossible, like keeping jelly in a string bag. You must be anxious?

You don’t have to do anything for ever if it’s too dramatic for you. You can pull back for now and see how it goes? I just don’t think about the future too much with my parents, I just know that right now and as far as I can see we’re not in touch. Might that work? No big showdowns.

You know you can’t change them or help them, only they can do that.

@Herocomplex you are so right. I'm going to explain to my mother that I am taking a step back right now because of my dads behaviour with me and my children and the fact he doesn't respect my boundaries. I'm going to focus on them and what we want as a family for now and put us first. I'm incredibly anxious and have been since I can remember. My daughter is so strong, smart and brave and I just don't want her to listen to my dads negatively and being bullied for him. I have worked so hard to get away from one abusive relationship and I need to do the same with this one, not just for the kids, but also me. My mum can see me without my dad if she wishes.

I’m so glad to hear you can see things a bit more clearly. Keep it really simple unhappy, remember you don’t owe anyone explanations, don’t give them a chance to argue with you, it’s not a negotiation.

You’ve done your bit for them, now do it for yourself. It’s not easy, but you know that if you’ve got away from an abusive relationship.

Find some ways to take care of yourself - nurture and be kind to yourself. Al-anon might be helpful as the child of an alcohol dependent parent?

Keep in touch on here. It’s a big help in times of self-doubt.

Hi stately homes people 😊
sharing this video because I found it really helpful and interesting... All two-and-a-half hours of it 😯
(I do appreciate however that her framework may not line up with that others in the field)
m.youtube.com/watch?v=gpjYtAB9i2w&t=7222s
LOS ANGELES
The Psychopath & The Sociopath: A Masterclass
71,574 views
MedCircle
395K subscribers
Published on Feb 6, 2020
Access full, FREE video series with Dr. Ramani HERE: medcr.cl/aspd
Psychopath, sociopath, or just arrogant? Few people understand the science behind the psychopath and the sociopath. In this full-length masterclass video, clinical psychologist and personality disorder expert Dr. Ramani Durvasula does a deep dive on the psychopath, the sociopath, and everything you need to know about antisocial personality disorder (ASPD).

There's a fine line between someone who is overly-confident and someone who has antisocial personality disorder, which is the clinical diagnosis behind psychopathy and sociopathy. Not only are ASPD symptoms and behaviors difficult to spot, it's also far more common than most people realize.

Some of what Dr. Ramani covers....

• What causes antisocial personality disorder (ASPD) - nature or nurture?
• What goes on in the brain of a psychopath or sociopath - and whether they can feel remorse or empathy
• A deep-dive of the signs and symptoms of a psychopath and a sociopath
• How to tell if your friend, coworker, or even your spouse is a psychopath or sociopath
• The latest findings and research on ASPD, psychopaths, and sociopaths
• How to handle a child who is showing signs of ASPD
• How to cope with a parent, co-worker, boss, sibling, or family member who has psychopathic or sociopathic traits
• Whether someone with antisocial personality disorder can recover / be cured

“There is no ‘average’ person with antisocial personality disorder. You can find people with antisocial personality disorder everywhere from death row to the best table at the best restaurant in Los Angeles.” - Dr. Ramani Durvasula

Hi everyone. I'm not really sure what to say here but I'm struggling and this seems like a good place for some support. I've only recently admitted out loud that my step dad abused me and my younger brother. He was very emotionally abusive and it did get physical at times. Things like literally throwing us up the stairs, pushing my face into a keyboard because he thought I was spending too long on the computer. Berating me, screaming in my face, throwing my belongings in the garden. Basically anytime I disagreed with him I knew there would be hell to pay. I was terrified of him and spent my entire childhood walking on eggshells.

My mum minimised what was going on but I don't harbour any bad feelings towards her. She was terrified of him too and he wore her down. She did stick up for us sometimes but always backed down to him in the end.

I've recently started counselling as I've been diagnosed with GAD and I think it's because of the anxiety I felt as a child.

This thread seems like a good fit for me because my mum frequently mentions how many nice holidays we had as children. She doesn't mention that he would still flip out on holiday if we dared to misbehave.

I don't know what I hope to gain from posting here, there's nothing I can do about it now. Thankfully my mum left him 5 years ago after much encouragement from us and she is happier now. I'm no contact but I did run into him a few weeks ago and it's brought a lot up again.

There's so many strong people on here, I could use some of that strength right now.

Hi jimmyjab it’s ok to just want to see it written down and have other people acknowledge that

• it was wrong
• it wasn’t possible for you to stop it by yourself
• you deserved love, care and protection

And just because it’s not physically happening to you right now the mental weight of it feels like a painful ugly burden to you most of/all of the time.

You’re so very welcome here 💐

Jimmyjab, you were an innocent and vulnerable child, your stepfather is despicable, I can imagine that running into him unexpectedly would be awful, very triggering and upsetting.
Of course it's good that your mum has escaped but it's still very hurtful and painful for her to minimise and deny the fact that you were abused. You deserve a mum who does the right thing, who acknowledges that she didn't step up when she should have and who apologises. You have been severely wronged as a child and then when she should have taken the opportunity to own her behaviour and put things right she chose to wrong you again, rubbing salt into the wound.
It's so very hurtful and insulting to talk about the lovely holidays but not even acknowledge the fact that you were terrorised by your stepfather during these holidays, the implication is that you don't matter and that is very hurtful.
I noticed you say that you only recently admitted out loud, but there is nothing to admit because you have done nothing wrong, can you reframe this and see it as a disclosure rather than you admitting something?

Thank you both for your lovely replies. I think the thing with my mum is that she's scared to delve into what happened because she knows it will destroy her own mental health so she buries her head in the sand rather than confront the truth. I guess I feel responsible to make sure this doesn't cause her a breakdown. I know that's stupid, I know I should put my own MH first but she's been beaten down by people her whole life, I don't want to be another person putting her down or adding guilt to her load. I want to protect her from how the abuse has affected me, which is why I never said it out loud until the counsellor made me confront it. I think because there's so many horrible accounts of abuse out there I always thought mine wasn't that bad. But is has affected more than I realised.
@Ulterego you're totally right about me saying admitting, I hadn't realised that it does put the onus on me.

@jimmyjab so sorry what you've been through. Just wanted to echo others and say what happened was not OK. None if it was your fault.

So I'm back again. We go through times my mum is nice and helpful (I think) and times where I think she does things on purpose to uoset/annoy me.

Today I asked if she could pick DS up at 3pm for me from nursery as he's been poorly this week and today was his 1st day back. Thought he could take it easy at my mums for the last 2 hours. She said she couldn't as she needs to tidy the bedroom and go to a home store and she had a headache. I mean fair enough if this was a one off but she hardly ever helps. Even my DSis has begun to notice now she has a DS. Our mum doesn't work so we are struggling to see why she says she's always busy and doesn't help us much. I know you shouldn't expect someone to but I only ask here and there. Not often.
So she picked him up at 4. Made herself my son and dad tea. I walk in on them eating tea. She goes oh sorry I made you 3 sausages. So she planned to cook for everyone else but left me out. I didn't expect her to cook for me but felt like she done it on purpose. She also undermines me witg my son. She will do something and then go oh I should have asked mummy first but then carry on. Or ill say one thing like no you can't to DS and she will pipe up witg well what about this. I'm like no this is what I said. It really is starting to get to me how she tries to undermine me.

But then she will do nice stuff like pick me and DS up from the hospital early hours in the morning?? I'm always in a state of confusion. But I guess it's like an abusive relationship where they have to be a bit nice otherwise why would you stick around? You always hope for that nice person they sometimes show.

Crafty I think there will have to come a point where you stop relying on her. If you want to keep a relationship with her then I would suggest you don’t place your happiness in her hands. The problem is if she is a narc then any contact you have with her will be manipulative.

It sounds like she needs you to constantly be beholden to her, she’ll help but on her terms. And most people might say why not, it’s her life - but I know exactly how it feels to be reminded that you have no power in the relationship, that a drama is always in the offing, a change of mood.

You can’t change her, only how you relate to her. It’s really hard to accept I know.

Don’t forget about Fear, Obligation and Guilt, it’s very powerful.

It's so strange because Im aware of what she does. However I am still in the FOG. However I rely on her for childcare when I go to my weekly counselling which she knows I rely on. So I feel like I rely on her for that reason. If I didn't need her for that I would speak my mind alot more towards her.

I understand Crafty, life is complicated and we can’t always get to where we want to be very easily. Your child will get older and things will get simpler I hope.

I feel there is something of a cruel irony there though Crafty.
I'm assuming that your mother is part of the reason you need counselling, so counselling is a way of defending yourself against your mother but she's trying to use it as a weapon against you!
The fact that you need her help in order to access the counselling means that she is a gatekeeper for the thing that you need to protect you against her.
She's got you totally stitched up.

I had my counselling yesterday and talked a bit about the abuse as a child. I never really thought he was violent as the smacking he did was when I was under 9 and almost normal to the era. Looking back on it now he was violent with me. He gave me a dead leg at 12 so I fell to the floor and then make jokes with the family about how pathetic I was as I crumbled to the floor. He would draw pictures of me that were ugly and sing songs about my goofy teeth and spotty skin, but I couldn't mean as it was character building, he would also get my sister to join in. Sometimes it was her turn too and he would get me to join in too. My mum tried to stick up for us, but I think she just didn't have fight left in her. I spoke to her briefly last night and she even said he was horrid and how there wasn't the support to leave him when we were kids like there was now. She said she wished she had known about benefits etc as she honestly thought she was stuck and would be living on the streets.

That was horrific, I'm appalled, he sounds like a sociopath, sadistic and cruel I hope he gets what he deserves, I hope he rots, piece of sh1t