"But we took you to Stately Homes" January 2020 onwards

[toomuchtooold]

It's January 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
May-August 2019
August-October 2019
November-December 2019

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Just been reading some articles on controlling or coercive behaviour in relationships, about partners rather than parents but interesting that all say part of it was that narrative of 'poor me' and so the abused stayed because they felt sorry for the abuser, desperate to try to make things better. We read these stories of (mainly) women staying with these awful, abusive partners and find it difficult to understand how they couldn't see what was happening, but we are the same with our parents. Also usually everyone outside of the relationship would think the abuser was wonderful, a real catch, how lucky.

yellowlemon Now I've got some distance, I'm not sure my father is that clever but his superiority complex made me think he was. Children tend to think their dad is the best at some points, and that also makes it conusing when from a fairly young age you start to see that he's also the worst.

yellowlemon Most of your description of your mother and how you felt rings very true to me, I could have written it about my father, the terror because she's your mother, the disinterest, the jealousy of your success.

I thought there was coercive control in my parents marriage for a while FreshStart01, I was trying to make sense of things. Then when I came here and read about co-dependency I realised that’s what was going on.
I agree though it’s probably the mindset I was in, thinking that I was in a loving family so the bad person must have been me.

I’m struck yellowlemon by the way you mention that your mother might have been jealous of you, I’d say she was. The rage that narcissists feel has to be channeled into some emotion, and jealousy is the best description. It always took me by surprise when I saw it in my own mother, I felt shame on her behalf for some reason. She was jealous about the strangest things though, and I always tried to placate her by minimising the thing she was jealous of.

Hi everyone,
I am an occasional visitor to the stately homes - brief background:

Growing up My sister and I were victims of emotional abuse at the hands of my father and passive useless mother. They are both totally emotionally immature.
We have both been in therapy for a while and this has given me clarity on the situation.
I cut off my grandmother (mums mum) approaching a year ago because she is also emotionally abusive and cruel and I felt this was the right thing to do in order to protect my DD (now 18months) and I just didn't want to have to deal with her any more in all honesty.

Fast forward to now - I have a low contact relationship with my parents. Very very low communication, I probably see them once a month if that with the odd text message from mum here and there (I never hear from dad) and I am ok with that. Mum knows her mother is abusive to her and other members of the family (me and sister included) but because she's passive she lets it carry on and goes running back to her every week for various reasons and excuses. She has never tried to protect us from her and let's her walk all over her.

I found out last night from my sister that my mum has been showing my grandmother photos and videos of my DD, (my mum told her this) which she has obtained through Instagram without my permission. Now I say without permission - I allowed mum to follow me on there even though it made me feel uneasy, so she had access to the photos. My grandmother doesn't use Instagram though and so she wouldn't be seeing them if mother hadn't have shown her.

I'm really pissed off about it to be honest and it feels like once again I have been betrayed by the people who are meant to be my parents.
It also feels as though my mum is forcing some kind of sneaky relationship by allowing grandmother to see these pictures.
I have since blocked my mums account and mine is locked down. I'm not ok Facebook either.

I feel as though I need to talk to mum about boundaries and that she's crossing a line. I wonder however if I'm being a bit sensitive about this and what other people's views are on a situation like this?
I just don't feel like any of them deserve to be a part of DDs life when they sneak about and lie and abuse everyone they are meant to care about. They seem to think seeing photos through an app constitutes a relationship. They make no effort to see DD, I can't recall the last time they actually did - think it was around Christmas.

Thoughts?

Hi TheLolaMontez - I don't think you're being over-sensitive, I think it would upset me as well having gone NC with someone if they were then accessing private photos and videos without me knowing. I think the point to make with your M is that if your GM were to request it herself via Instagram then you would not have allowed her to follow you, and your M knows this so she is blatently going against your wishes.

I'm not sure you can be entirely surprised though, and I wonder if that's partly why you were doubtful about having your M following you.

Before I went NC I rarely sent my father pictures, whereas I send them to my DM (good relationship) all the time. I just felt like it was another thing that he could judge me by.

Hi @FreshStart01 thank you for taking the time to reply.

I think you're right re not being completely surprised by this and there is definitely a reason I had that gut feeling in the first instance.

It just feels like another huge smack of reality straight to the face, reminding me that my parents will never be "parents" and they will always inevitably let me down or find ways to make me feel shit.

My mum has spoke to me in the not so distant past about her own mum and the way she treats her - I've tried my best to offer clear and practical advice and yet she goes trotting back to her week after week. Just another reminder that I will never be valued in any sort of way by her because she's constantly pulled back in by her own abusive mother.

Sad and shitty.

TheLolaMontez Indeed sad and shitty, and I think its when we have our own children and realise that we would prioritise them over everyone else INCLUDING our own parents that we realise quite how shitty. That's not to say in normal, healthy, functional families I don't think parents should be priorised and important, but as part of everyone's feelings being considered. My children started to suffer the rath of my father, and that was why I went NC. I put up with it myself, but I wasn't going to risk them being damaged, and in the end I realised that me being damaged was damaging them even if they didn't have direct contact with him. My children come first. I did not come first with my father, he did.

Definitely, I can't understand after having DD how any parent could behave in the way that mine did. I can't get my head around their decision to even bother having us as they clearly didn't love us the way they should have.
It breaks my heart to think of my daughter feeling the way I did during childhood. It was so lonely and isolating, as kids we had no one. I don't know why anyone would want that for their child.

I think my upbringing has thankfully catapulted me in the completely opposite direction to them which I am glad about, I'd never want to be anything like them.

Hi TheLolaMontez:)
I completely get why you're pissed off about them just going over your head and opening a 'backchannel' as if your wishes about your own personal life are irrelevant, I'd be spitting feathers too
Just block them all, I wouldnt bother to explain, just stick to your own rules and boundaries

Thanks @Ulterego I blocked her straight away last night, she's got four different accounts that all only follow me (which also made me feel uneasy) so they're all blocked now.

I haven't been in touch with them today - it's the anniversary of my uncle (mums brother)'s death today. Whilst I feel as though she doesn't really care that much about (never shown emotion about the situation, all very matter of fact), I feel as though it would be perfect ammunition for her/them to throw. "How could you be so mean on a day like today", etc. So I have remained silent and feeling a little more safe knowing they can't see anything of my life.

What a bloody carry on

Speaking of which she's just sent me a text don't know whether to mention it or not...

@TheLolaMontez It's hard to understand but I don't think they think they're doing anything wrong. In their self-centred world, the way they bring up children is the right way and everyone else is wrong. And they think their children will be content with however they treat them. Because the way they treat their children is perfect.

In my mother's world a child would much rather go to church with her mother than spend time with her friends. Of spend their weekends cleaning the house from top to bottom because it builds character. (My mother never got the irony that this character-building hadn't stopped her from being too lazy to clean the house). Her child must have exactly the same likes and dislikes as her because anything else is to be disapproved at.

The funny thing is I don't think my mother gets enjoyment from anything. She does things because she thinks she ought to and it will make her look good in front of others. When most of the time it just makes her a ridiculous laughing stock.

I'm sure they don't think they are @yellowlemon they have no respect for my boundaries what so ever and this is not the first time they have trampled on them.

It's infuriating but like you say, they cannot see a different point of view. This is partly why I have distanced myself from them because I can't be bothered making an effort to be interested in their boring lives that they seem to think are wonderful and they don't have any interest in mine.

When you have a "conversation" with my father for example, he can manage to ask a question but he will talk over your answer or get distracted or change the subject. They couldn't give less of a shit if they tried.

thelola what you said in your last post is similar to me also. Especially the changing subject or ignoring you when talking. I just used to let it go but it's become more apparent. It's really horrible isnt it. Makes me angry. Like my time isn't much to them but what they have to say is the most important thing.

Today I received a tag on a social media platform of a meme from my sister. It was a sketch of a women with 2 dogs favouring one dog over the other. Telling the other dog the one of her lap was her favourite and for the other dog to go away. The caption was: Parents: I don't have a favourite. Also parents: then it was the video below of the woman favouring the dog.
Hope that makes sense.
Anyway I don't know if my sister is having a dig or just finding the video funny? She was the scapegoat and me the golden child. Maybe I'm being sensitive because I've been uncovering feeling this week and reading too much into it

Crafty I don't know if she's having a dig in a negative way but you recently said that you'd had a text exchange about how you both focus on your mother in counselling so honestly I think she probably is sending this as a representation of how she sees it. You don't need to respond though. You are each dealing with your own personal issues relating to your family, it is hard for both of you and you can show each other compassion and empathy but it might be that trying to help the other is too much. Its not a picnic being 'golden child' but I suspect she sees beeing 'black sheep' as harder at least when you were children. You know that having a child of your own gets you onto a very different thought process about parenting and your own childhood experiences, and she's going through the same thing now. I would try to just give her some space to deal with it.

Thanks @freshstar01 she was also at mine at the beginning of the week and tried bringing our mum up again. She was asking about counselling and saying she couldn't let certain things go. I felt very uncomfortable. I don't wish to speak to her about it, it's easier with my counsellor. I also usually take on the fixer role in my family and I don't wish to do this anymore. I didn't give much answer to her questions and didn't ask her questions about her feelings. I felt bad but feel she should seek counselling herself. Her words were "counselling doesn't work for me, I don't know why I can't talk to you about it'. So my take on that was be my counsellor.

I think you’re right @Crafty11. She’s also ignoring your boundaries. Be firm, as you say it’s hard when you’ve always been the family fixer. You can’t help her anyway, you’re too close to the problem, help yourself first.

Her words were "counselling doesn't work for me, I don't know why I can't talk to you about it'
what are you some sort of appliance to which she has a right of access??
she doesnt want to talk to someone objective and neutral who will want her to look honestly at herself, oh no that doesnt work for her at all, much better to just pour it all onto you, you can be manipulated and you wont charge her money.
One might reply 'having you pour out your shit on me doesnt work for me, why cant you take responsibility for yourself and see a professional' but is there any point trying to engage, might as well just be evasive and feed them bullshit to shut them up whenever they utter anything at all

I know @ulterego the more I've thought about it the more I've thought you've got the cheek to say that to me. I've done so much research and work on myself why can't she do the same? And also yes she hates to take an accountability. She is actually like my mum in a lot of ways. She has the worst temper and absolutely hates authority with a passion. I mean I can't keep track the amount of jobs she's had and not once has she stepped back and thought maybe she's the problem. I do love her but wish she would work on herself too rather than passing blame.

I came across this post the other day about non-apologies after DH experienced one from his dad (IDK if his parents are full-on toxic, but they're definitely not healthy to be around too much), but it helped underline something I'd been saying to him about the fact that he couldn't expect his parents to apologise or change, and it's worth looking at for anyone who can't help hanging on for that (and it's actually very positive, I promise!)

theinvisiblescar.wordpress.com/2016/02/25/even-when-abusive-parents-apologize-they-dont/

She sounds very low on impulse control Crafty I think that with such personality types it's difficult for them to gain any insight into themselves because there is very little 'space' for thinking, their anger flashes up so quickly and for them that's become a way of getting what they want and intimidating other people.
I think it becomes so hard wired into them over time that there is no route for change, I'm not trying to excuse her behaviour more pointing at the fact that nothing's going to change and she's only going to get worse as she gets older ☹️

I think you're right @ulterego she is extremely defensive and I can't remember one time she's admitted to being wrong. Just like my mum actually. She gets in strops very quickly over the smallest thing too.

Today I found out my mum is having my nephew all day and night. He's only a baby and still young. If I had asked her this it would have been a huge inconvenience. Just another example of the way my mum treats us differently even though she always makes a big deal that she doesn't.
Also another thing today. Me and mum took my son to a playarea. I asked if she wanted to come up but she said no and sat in the food area so I went up with son. My mum appeared when she saw I was speaking to a man who's friends with my son. Tried getting in on the conversation. Kind of like she was jealous. Anyone else had similar from their mum?

Sorry don't mean to hog the thread. A lot is going on atm. Just need people who understand and to talk to.

Oh sorry not a man who's friends with my son lol. His son is friends with my son

Hello. Room for another? :)

I’ve been aware of these threads for a long time - even recommended them to others on my previous name changes - but have never joined in. Because what happened was in the past, it’s dealt with.

Turns out I was wrong! Oops. I’m having therapy, and have ended up on a couple of courses that also bring up past stuff. Combined with some general tricky life circumstances I’m frankly a bit of a mess.

I’m really struggling with asking for help, feeling needy, like I’m an attention seeker etc and it all comes down to how my parents were. Objectively speaking the actual obvious abuse was by someone else (mum’s brother) so I hope it’s ok that I’m here - I can assure you that it’s my parents who fucked me up far far more than he ever did.