"But we took you to Stately Homes" January 2020 onwards

[toomuchtooold]

It's January 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
May-August 2019
August-October 2019
November-December 2019

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Hello... Would you mind if I come and join you?

Firstly, I wanted to send big hugs to you all and say I am blown away by how strong and supportive you all are. I have been reading some of the older threads, caught up on the amazing introduction to this thread and will spend a bit more time now reading through your experiences.

I had no idea there were so many managing difficult family relationships. IRL we just don't hear so much of the true reality do we?

I'm just starting to try and deal with my own rotten childhood following the death of my last surviving grandparent last year.

My parents were neglectful. I was raised in a filthy house and wasn't well cared for. My mum especially is very difficult and full of critisism of everyone around her. We don't see them much, they only bother 2-3 times a year.

My grandparents were amazing, and I'm looking I had all 4 until after I left home at 16.

I think a combination of losing the last of my grandparents, coming up on middle age and raising my own children has brought it all the fore and made me realise I have to deal with it for my own families sake. My thread from earlier today has made me realise I need to review what kind of relationship I'll have with them going forward.

I'm already NC with my only sibling, she is very like my DM, and that's been a really good choice in my life.

Sorry that's a lot of info for an introduction when you are all working through your own lives. I do hope I can be of some support to you all too

Welcome Gruffalomom. I'm sorry you had such a rotten childhood and no doubt struggles with your parents throughout your adult life. Feel free to vent, its very cathartic to get everything written down, and no one here will judge you for writing too much, I can assure you.

implodingexploding I'm so sorry to hear your story. Please, please remember it's not your fault.

Like a lot of you here I feel like I'm just staring the process of re-evaluating my childhood and family relationships. It's quite emotionally draining but also refreshing to see things clearly. I was thinking about all the stories we have been told and how we take them as truth but it's completely different when you look at it another way.

Thannk you yoshimi

I can just imagine all the people who would tell me all then reasons why it was my fault.
If it happened to someone else i'd say they werent to blame at all,
I'd be blaming him totally
The night after, I got stuck for a few hours feeling really sorry for him that he's so messed up and ruined by porn, and feeling really guilty that I was obviously confusing, not clear enough, as if I'm made him a rapist when he wouldnt have been if only I'd fought him physically properly. and thinking well he didnt get to ejaculate so that will have been hard for him... I mean What the hell?! :( ? I came close to texting him to say sorry!! :( Thankfully I didn't.

I thought I'd made more progress than I have. I'm frightened and muddled.

It is 100% my childhood that has programmed me to ALWAYS automatically try to empathise with the person who hurt me and place a load of blame on myself for whatever abuse occurred.

I feel like I'm not in reality right now. A week ago i'd never have predicted any of this. If i did try to tell mty therapist when i see her this week she would be very shocked that I even met up with anyone in the first place i think.

In the past, people I've told about bad things that happenbed, have blamed me straight away, or said i was lying.
I seem to have the shakes now

if only I'd fought him physically properly
we are not trained fighters, I'm a fit strong person but I would be very scared to have an actual fight with a man, or anyone really, when you're in an emergency situation your animal self takes over, it decides if it's safe to fight this person or not, it sizes them up and evaluates the risk for you, unless you have a good chance of coming off better in a fight the instinct is to go limp and play dead.
It takes a lot of training to override these self preservation instincts.
You sound as if you're a bit dissociated, that's perhaps another protective mechanism while things are processing in your brain?

ImplodingExploding Would you ring a rape crisis line? We’re all supportive of you here, but I think you might need some practical help.
Your therapist will not judge you or persuade you to do anything you don’t want to.

You must put yourself at the centre now. You haven’t ‘let’ or ‘allowed’ or ‘invited’ anything to happen. Keep yourself safe.

Hi @Gruffalomom welcome.

Give yourself plenty of time to really think about yourself. Most of seem to go through cycles of anger, uncertainty, sadness, reflection and fear.

It’s normal to wonder at times if you’ve got it all wrong, lots of people will tell you that your parents did their best, that you’re an adult now and need to build bridges. It unsettles people, mainly because if they’ve grown up in a ‘normal’ family they just won’t really understand.

Read, think, reflect. Look after yourself, lots of buried memories are likely to resurface. Above all deal with your family on your own terms, you don’t need to explain or placate them. You don’t even need to keep promises. Your good behaviour hasn’t been rewarded so far.

Post as much as you like, it’s just good to vent it.

Sorry I posted on the relationship board but got no replies. Wondering if people here could shed some light??

For over 6 months now I've had a feeling my mum may be a narcissist but I'm not sure, because sometimes she will do things that are nice but I don't know if there's a bigger reason behind it rather than being kind. Yesterday I had my counselling and realised she uses triangulation. It's with me and my sister and has been since my early 20s. However in counselling I realised she put herself in the middle of my relationship and sis relationships. Therefore trianglating herself at the top again.
These are other examples:
1.Holds huge grudges. Even if it doesn't seem a big deal. Grudges can go on for years.

1. Appearance matters alot! Eg remember your manners when you're out. You can't wear that you look a mess. The way you look reflects on me.
2. I was the golden child and sister scapegoat growing up. It seems she lived through me and my achievements. Pushed me at everything to be perfect. When I didn't do well told me I didn't practise enough or was rubbish.
3. Unpredictable mood swings. Walking on egg shells. When she's this way everyone panders to her.
4. I sometimes feel like the parent giving her advice. She never takes it anyway as she always knows best.
5. Her views are right yours are wrong. Eg. She loves Donald trump and no one can argue against why he isn't good.
6. You have to work around her. Gets put out if you don't but won't directly say. Will be passive aggressive.
7. Will not say no or confront other people outside our family. But will with us.
8. When confronted and you take on other points of views and not hers she cries.

10. Has little empathy and cannot put herself in other people's shoes. She is a terrible support of I'm going through anything. Has openly told me that my problems stress her out and she has to listen to everyone else's issues. But no one listens to hers.

So that's a list of some of the things I can think of right now. Is she a narc or does she just have narc traits?

Sorry for the long post

Hi Crafty11

To be honest none of us can diagnose your mother. The question you should perhaps be asking is ‘how can I change my relationship with my mother?’ She sounds very difficult to have a relationship with though, are you looking for a way out of it?

You’re working with a counsellor so you’re clearly keen to make some changes. You can’t change her but you can change your own actions and responses. Is your counsellor helping you with your boundaries, or looking for ways to repair the connection with your mother?

It doesn’t really matter if you give her a particular label or not, the balance sounds all wrong and you sound distressed, which cannot be right for you.

But if it helps you to see things clearer and gather some strength then yes, she sounds as though she is behaving as a narcissist would. Protect yourself anyway 💐

For me, reading about narcissistic behaviour was a bit of a lightbulb moment and helped me see that my father's behaviour wasn't just due to what was happening in his immediate environment. In other words, it wasn't my fault, it wasn't my mother's fault, it wasn't because he couldn't cope with the reality of my severely learning disabled son and was lashing out because of depression, it wasn't because he'd had to give up on his dream of living abroad to be in the UK where his son could be better supported. These were all excuses that I'd made for him, but in the end I have been able to accept that there is something wrong with him. Not with me, with him. I am damaged because of his behaviour towards me, but I can recover. He cannot be fixed and I cannot be around him without suffering more damage. That is what I have now come to accept. The name it has, whether he is a narcissist or has narcissistic traits, is now of little relevance. I just know that its not right, not normal, but he won't change.

I cannot be around him without suffering more damage
Yes! That's the key thing Freshstart isn't it!

It is for me, yes. I do admire others that can work on themselves to the point of being able to develop the coping strategies that mean they can have a relationship with the parent without further damage to themselves, but I personally don't feel like I have that strength, and I'm also not sure I see the point. I'm not angry with my father anymore, I'm just accepting of the reality. I would rather work on my self in terms of my relationship with my DH and DC and even my mother, but not him. The risk of damage to myself is too high, and I don't see that the potential benefits of having a relationship with him (whatever they are) outweigh that risk, so I won't go back.

I agree Freshstart01. Now I know what I know I just don’t see a way back, and back to what?

When people talk about repairing things there has to be the idea of change on both sides, acceptance of the thing that went wrong and a genuine wish for the wellbeing of the other person, doesn’t there? I can forgive lots of the things that happened, even the violence. But why? What’s the point? I’d be exceptionally foolish if I wasn’t always on high alert for being manipulated, so how is that a relationship?

I just go back to the simplest solution. I’m sure my family are all suffering, but it’s not being compounded by FOG.

I’d be exceptionally foolish if I wasn’t always on high alert for being manipulated, so how is that a relationship?

Exactly!

Thank you. Yes I agree @freshstart01 I'm learning how to deal with her and my boundaries. I'm not half as angry as I used to be. I see her traits now and she is pretty predictable. My sister is now going through the realisation process and she's very angry and upset just like I was a few years ago. I know labels don't matter it just helps to process and understand if that makes sense

On being manipulated...
I can see now that the parent has manipulated me all their life, subtly steering me into to doing what they wanted whilst trying to make me feel like it was my idea, this person is sophisticated and controlled enough to understand that you catch more flies with honey, you must always be diplomatic etc. As they get older the mask is slipping and the clever manipulations are sliding into overt trickery, setups and staging of situations.

@ulterego yes I agree clever subtle manipulation. I don't know if her mask has slipped just yet. I think I've just become better at spotting what she's doing. She's predictable now.
Does anyone else feel sorry for their parent/s. Not for the things they have done but for being the way they are. I wonder how I thought process works too. Because I would never behave in her manner

I too like the rabid dog analogy- I went to visit my mum( almost certainly narcissistic) in hospital as she had just had a cancerous tumour removed( didn't tell me she was going in mind you!) We have not spoken for a while . She said she was pleased to see me and had always loved me even when I was a beastly baby! Then said the thing is I have a poisonous tongue and havd passed it to you! I was furious- she will not take any responsibility for the unkind things she has done! Just wanted to let this all out to you understanding lot and ask ..that's not normal is it? Or am I just as bad? I'm so confused!

I think I've felt sorry for my father for all of my life because that's been part of his narrative, how disappointing his life has been so of course he feels angry/bitter/sad and noone should blame hin for that. The trouble is, I've played a fairly big part in that disappointing life so that makes me feel pretty crap. I think feeling sorry for them is part of being in FOG. It keeps you there, feeling like you can't leave them when its somehow not their fault. The thing is though, that doesn't help. And my father could be funny and charming to others, and even to me ocassionally, so I feel like he had some awareness of the right way to behave, even if the empathy was missing. He behaved the worst towards the 3 main women in his life: me, his wife and his own mother, yet he has female friends who he is perfectly fine with (not sure about current partner, she's always been very closed, but I have seen him being very condesending to her). I feel sorry that he has a son who can't communicate with him, and a daughter who won't, but he brought it upon himself, so I've got over it.

Then said the thing is I have a poisonous tongue and have passed it to you!
shoulda given her a mouthful of abuse and then said oops, that's your fault for giving me the poisonous tongue
childish I know, and she picked her moment didnt she, when she was all pale and ill in her hospital bed
I wish I'd torn several strips off of mother, I hate the fact that I was intimidated by her and never really stood up to her, I wish I could have had the satisfaction of....something but prob better to just walk away
I dunno, mine will soon be in their 80's, your's are probably more my age?

Like its something that can be inherited and therefore completely out of her control?!

If you grew up in a household where you were constantly subject to verbal attacks from a parent then of course you will develop your own forms of defence, we have a deep drive for self-preservation as do all creatures, you learnt from a tiny child that you had to be able to speak out and defend yourself in some way

It's interesting reading about those of you who had very manipulative and even 'sophisticated' parents.

I used to think that a lot of the problem I had with my mother was because she wasn't that bright and rather then feeling manipulated I just felt very, very controlled and incredibly frustrated in trying to have any kind of reasonable conversation with her.

I think she was just too stupid to develop any proper strategies. But I also think the fact that she totally looked inward stopped her from broadening her mind. I always used to think she was wilfully naive long before the internet and Dr Google led me down the path of thinking she's probably a narc too.

Of course I was terrified of her because she was my mother and she didn't anything to help me develop emotionally. She didn't care for me like a parent should or show me any affection or have an interest in what I might be interested in. She just assumed I was going to be a carbon copy of her. And woe betide if I veered from that path. There were also the rages and periods of silence and the childish behaviour which left everyone walking on eggshells around her.

It sounds awful to say but I think she was probably a bit jealous of me as I got older and started to succeed in life. She hated the fact that I had a job that she didn't understand as she couldn't be 'proud' of me or tell people about me.

At my father's funeral people literally had no idea who I was and thought I was my sister. Or if they did they asked if I was still doing things from my childhood.

I'm coming up to 3 months NC. I've thought about her every day unfortunately but I don't feel sorry for her. And as each milestone passes (Christmas, birthdays etc) I feel so much freer.

No flying monkeys yet but I don't think she has anyone she can use. The only people who she really knows are mutual family and if she told any of them that I was NC I'm sure they would completely understand.

Oops - sorry. That turned into a bit of an essay.