"But we took you to Stately Homes" January 2020 onwards

[toomuchtooold]

It's January 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
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July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
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Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
May-August 2019
August-October 2019
November-December 2019

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Do you mind if I join? I’m just looking for a bit of advice really. Sorry it’s a long one 🙈
I’ve always been what I thought as close to my parents even though my ex partner and now my husband have both said they are very controlling.
To cut a long story short, we had a big fall out last week, There has been tensions for a while but last Thursday my parents came over to watch the kids while me and my husband went to the cinema, we came home, everything was fine. Nothing said. Friday I took the kids to my parents house as usual and this is when the issues started.
I was told by my mum that I need to plan a day out with the kids because she is coming to reorganise my kitchen, because SHE couldn’t find anything in it when she was trying to cook tea.
Then I was told I should be embarrassed at how much dust is on my chandeliers. My dad has cleaned 3 parts of it so I can really see how much dust is on there.
Then I was told that my house needs a deep clean and is absolutely disgusting.

This makes the house sound unclean! It’s really not! A bit of background on me...I have 2 kids under 5, 2 dogs, I run a small business and my husband works 12 hour shifts. Life’s busy and I’m doing the best I can. I don’t have time to be cleaning my chandeliers. I spend a good 1-2 hours cleaning every morning.
I have also been suffering with very very low moods since my youngest was born and last year I really did struggle. I’m getting in top of it now thankfully.

I came home and told my husband. He was absolutely fuming, as was I. Who even comes to your house and looks at your chandeliers?? Especially your parents?!

Sunday, everything exploded. When I dropped the kids off, my dad asked to speak to me. He basically asked why I had trips away with my 2 girlfriends booked. He said my marriage is unhappy. My husband always looks unhappy. I’ll be divorced by next year. He also told me once again my house is a state. I was fuming again. I got my kids and left.
My marriage certainly isn’t unhappy, we’ve been together 7 years this year and I still get excited to see him when he comes home, we’re very much a team.
These trips away are 2 nights each...and spread over a year. I’m not out partying, I don’t go clubbing. I look after everyone else and put everyone else before me, that’s why I have the trips planned...something for myself. I told my dad it’s for my own mental health, because it’s not fair on my husband to watch me crying all the time and I need to do something for myself. He told me I need to start putting my kids first...

So I’ve not spoken to them since. But over the last week I’ve realised how controlling they have actually been my whole life.

I had a new car not long ago, they told me I should be having a Range Rover...not a Ford.

I shouldn’t be having a 30th party because no one will come...and no one celebrates turning 30.

We shouldn’t have a grey carpet.

We had the garden done last year, they told us how we should be having it done, the table I ordered was too big, the plants weren’t right....they actually went out and bought plants and planted them in our garden.

You’re not booking another holiday to Disneyland.

When I moved into my first house, I was told where I was putting my furniture. I was told I was paying for gas central heating, I was then told we shouldn’t be having a corner sofa.

They are forever saying my son will have to go and live with them because he behaves better for them. This infuriates me and my husband. It makes me feel like a bad parent.

I could go on but you get the picture....I’m still sat here confused wondering if they are controlling or if I’m over thinking it? But I really don’t think I can forgive the things said about my house and marriage. I feel like I’m constantly treading on eggshells around them and I just don’t know what to do.

They are controlling and you are not overthinking this at all. Your ex and now current h are correct.

Do not let these people into your home or life ever again. It is really not possible to have a relationship with such disordered people. They were not good parents to you either when you were growing up and they have not changed. People like your parents enable each other, both of them have failed you utterly here and still for that matter do. You are not their slave for them to enforce their will on.

I would find alternative child sitters too, your parents should no longer sit your children either, I found the sitters agency to be useful.

Do also read the book entitled “if you had controlling parents” written by Dr Dan Neuharth. Your parents are in those pages.

Btw do you have siblings?

And I would remove and otherwise dispose/give away the plants they put into your garden as well, they have no right to impose their will on you as they have done to date.

You will ultimately also need to grieve for the relationship you should have had rather than the one you actually got.

@AttilaTheMeerkat thank you for responding. I feel so lost.
No I don't have any siblings, it's just me.

My son goes to nursery 2 full days and 2 half days a week. But my MIL is starting to help out again. I feel so so so ashamed and stupid to say I let my parents persuade me to not really let my husbands part of the family look after them.
My parents don't have any friends, don't really go anywhere, do anything and they only go on holiday once a year usually to the same place.
I like to take my kids out on day trips to places, breaks away etc. I've been told I'm spoiling them.
I only have memories of going out to places with my grandparents when I was younger, I also spent all of my weekends at their house.
I don't have any other close family apart from my husbands family now, which I'm lucky I do get on with.

MrsT20
everything Attila says, and just block the bastards
or maybe just laugh in their faces, who do they think they are???

@MrsT20 no you are not overreacting at all. They sound incredibly controlling and view you as an extension of themselves with the same likes, and dislikes.

My parents were the same. I did nothing as a kid that was 'kid stuff' that I actually might have enjoyed (But they did take me to stately homes, and church graveyards).

You are not spoiling your kids. I would have loved to do some of most basic kid things like learn to ride a bike or go to the cinema so that I could find something to have in common with other kids at school. When they were all talking about the latest film or what was on TV the night before ( we didn't have a TV) or anything else that kids bonded over I had nothing.

My parents weren't poor at all but they frittered their money away on rubbish. My mother for example bought dozens of sheets, towels, and other household goods that she stuffed away in cupboards and drawers or under the bed because she thought 'I might like to have them one day'.

And anyway, what's wrong with spoiling kids once in a while? Love and cherish and treat them and they will have great memories one day.

I would think your parents will now try all sorts to draw you back in. Such measures may involve flying monkeys (people sent in by your parents to do their dirty work for them) or even a previously unknown health scare/tests.

If your husband’s family are nice concentrate your efforts on them.

Please read the book I recommended and keep posting here too.

You can and should also remove their plants.

@yellowlemon I only ever remember going on trips out to b and q or similar places. I always felt the same about the cinema. They always say we had no money to do things. But a trip to the park doesn't cost anything does it.
I guess I always felt like the odd one out, they do tend to gang up on me.

@AttilaTheMeerkat we actually said the other day when the weather picks up we're going to replant the garden and get rid of the plants they put in! I will have a look for the book, thank you.
There's not really anyone they can get to talk to me...mum fell out with her sister a few months ago...told me I'm not allowed to talk to her anymore either. But I can imagine they will start with a health scare.
They ruined the Christmas before last...they had a cold (they said it was flu but I still don't believe it) they were "ill" for 3 weeks and had me running around everywhere for food and medicine and things. They never came to the door or even shouted thanks when I dropped stuff off.
Then they expected me to cook Christmas dinner, plate theirs up and drive it over straight away and then come back home for mine! I did put my foot down and say no....they weren't happy at all.

MrsT20 reading your post I have a sense that there is some underlying thing your parents are riled about, has something has triggered them, or they moved into a new phase where they feel it is necessary to get you locked down and under their direction?

MrsT20

I’m so glad you’ve realised how badly your parents are behaving. You don’t need to justify anything to them, they’re not thinking of you or your children as family members to be loved and cared for. They’re treating you like things to control, and by constantly telling you that they know best they’re reducing your feelings of self-worth.

The Out of The Fog website is brilliant for simple steps to get back some control and understanding of how to make the life you choose.

I hope you enjoy your nights away, it sounds like you deserve them. Let your bitter parents live how they choose, it’s up to them, but they can do it alone.

One week since huge argument with dad and he hasn't bothered to contact me. DSIS has said he's very sad and I should go visit .

He's never bothered to visit me in 7 years since DD was born been largely LC for 7 years then after his health problems last year he pushes for more contact and wants me to be his carer then he yells at me he expects us to go visit him , I'm sick of it I don't feel ready to speak to him yet I'm still so angry.

lilly0102 He is 'sad' because you haven't been the obedient child and gone running to him, apologising. He won't contact you because he will not see that he is at all in the wrong. He will not even consider that. He's not actually capable of doing that because he hasn't emotionally developed past the point of a 6 year old who hasn't yet developed empathy which would allow him to consider how you're feeling. However you do not have to put up with this just because he is your father, you would not put up with it from anyine outside of your family so don't put up with it from him. Stick to your guns and stay away from him. Don't hold out for him having a sudden revelation of his wrong doings though, because he never will. Think of your DC, focus on her, she is why you HAVE to do this, so you can be the best parent without the stress of his presence in your lives, and to protect her from any damage he will do to her directly if he's allowed to see her. He's not a nice person. It might be because of something that happened to him in his childhood, but that doesn't change the facts of it, and how it effects you and your DC. He can't be fixed, he's broken. Come out of the FOG and live your best life well away from him.

What FreshStart wrote

Your DSIS is acting here as his flying monkey by telling you this. She is not interested in hearing your side of things so her opinion should be ignored by you.

He can stew in his own juices. Continue to ignore both him and your sister here.

Lilly,
your father is trying to position himself as the wronged person, using his silence to try and force you into backing down
You don't have to accept this framing of the situation nor should you because that is allowing him to have the upper hand, he is maneuvering to try and get what he wants, to try and make you feel guilty so that you will agree to serve him.
You can do the same, you can manoeuvre to get what you want, as things stand you've got it good he's not communicating at all so just let him carry on with that.
Your sister says that he's sad, well tell her you don't give a toss, but if it bothers her she can go and see him but you got much better things to do 😊

I've just had a therapy session and in it I've realised my mum uses triangulation. Mainly between me and sister but she also has done it between me and previous partners. Or my sister and her partners. Or between me and my dad.
It's crazy that I never realised this before. I've suspected she had narc tendencies. Is this another one? So all attention turns to her and she feeds on it?

Yes Crafty11 it definitely is. It’s really enlightening when you realise.

My DM couldn’t really say that she didn’t want or like something, she always couched it as advice about somebody else - ‘your dad won’t like it if you do X’, ‘your sister is really jealous of your X’. I never thought It was damaging because I thought she was being so careful to protect all our feelings. How misguided.

Oh wow! Yes hero she uses the your dad won't like it if.... A lot! She also can't say outright she is very passive aggressive.

If I ever asked her if she minded about something she’d say she didn’t. Which is why I did so much second-guessing, trying not to do things that upset the dynamic. However my dad was capable of being incredibly sarcastic and cruel if you did do something that he thought was wrong. They provoked each other, loved to be nasty to each other if they had us as an audience. It was divide and rule.

I received a text from an old acquaintance. It was only a ‘new mobile number’ text. I responded on impulse. Years ago before the last breakdown I was part of a few large friendship groups. Next to nobody has contacted me in any way for years now (I’ve hardly contacted anybody either). I’ve been isolated and lonely and dealing with even more stress recently, been missing company, needing kindness, but too nervous and untrusting to successfully try to arrange anything with anyone I’d choose.

The acquaintance who sent me his new mobile number… If I’d made a list of people from the past that I’d particularly like to try to reinitiate contact with, he wouldn’t have been on it at all. But when our paths crossed semi-regularly 6/7 years ago we got on well enough. I’ve always remembered one occasion in particular when I was extremely vulnerable due to recreational drugs I’d taken, this guy was with me throughout, and I recall being so grateful to him because he didn’t even try to sexually assault me. :/ Low bar, right? Yes. But I wrongly took this as evidence that he wasn’t a danger to me.

When I replied to his text, he got back to me straight away. Said he was so happy to hear back from me, it’s made his day, he’d really missed seeing me around, etc. How am I doing? Would I like to catch up in person sometime?

A very few messages back and forth, he suggested he could come to see me the following day. I told him I wanted to keep my address secret, got no pushback about that which at the time I found reassuring, he just suggested I go to his.
I don’t really go anywhere these days. I’m either at home or at therapy pretty much.
But I went.
I definitely shouldn’t have gone.
Even if I’d said no to the following day, and just given myself some more time to process it all, then I wouldn’t have gone.
But I was convincing myself that it was good that it was soon, good to just go, because god I need some friendly company, he seems to give a shit about me, he wouldn’t hurt me right, and anyway I can leave, I’ll look after myself, I’ll just leave and come home to my secret address, safe, Im different now - I will assert myself, etc. Got to start somewhere with re-entering the flow of the human race, right? He's not a rapist (ha), he's not an alcoholic, we never had any sexual contact ever in the past, therefore this is a positive opportunity. Will be good for me.
I was wrong.
With hindsight I breezed through a zillion red flags which were right in front of me, that I ought to have heeded.
I ended up stuck in a situation where I was unable to remove myself,
and I have come to harm.

This was last week.

I don’t know how to deal with this now.
I can’t imagine telling anyone, I’m posting it here under a name change because I don’t know where else people are non-judgmental and can possibly maybe understand how things like this can happen. ??
I couldn’t find my Fight or Fight to call on which is disturbing me so much, I was all Fawn/Freeze.

I’m so upset with myself that I wasn’t able to protect myself. Remove myself. I did say No repeatedly, and in many different ways to be extra clear! (which is an improvement on say a decade ago), but saying No, clearly not in any way being into it/up for it, doesn’t work with people who watch too much porn. You have to remove yourself. And I didn’t. I couldn’t. Yet I almost certainly could have - If I’d got myself upright screamed shouted actually fought if necessary got myself out .. it would have been possible to. I think.

I was so desperate for some friendly human contact, and so damaged by being moulded all my life to tolerate unacceptable behaviour from others, to find best in people and make excuses for them, to blame myself and shoulder all responsibility for everything. But also I’ve had so many screams get stuck in my childhood and I actually think I’m on a deep level too scared to scream as a result because there’s almost nothing worse than trying to scream, trying and no sound comes out - It’s unbearable -I’m rambling- that I’ve ended up in this position, after all this time, all this therapy, all this work on myself.. I can’t imagine telling anyone in RL even my therapist I feel so ashamed and upset with myself and disgusted and angry and just so desperately sad. And terribly terribly truly alone.

I hope it’s okay to post this here I feel so ashamed and sick and confused. Thank you and sorry if this shouldn’t be here.

Hi ImplodingExploding :)
I'm so sorry that you have suffered this
what happened wasnt your fault
the fight flight thing, it's ' fight/flight/freeze' - when we are in overwhelming situations that we cant process or deal with the inner/unconscious self tries to protect you with whichever of those options it calculates to be the safest one.
It wasnt your fault, you communicated that you did not consent, you made your wishes very clear, the other person chose to ignore
please think about accessing some real life support, could you speak to your therapist?
How are you now?

Thank you Ulterego.

when we are in overwhelming situations that we cant process or deal with the inner/unconscious self tries to protect you with whichever of those options it calculates to be the safest one. - Thanks for this. I know it's true. I'm so disappointed in myself though that I couldn't get myself away, and that I took myself to his house in the first place.

I''m cross with myself,I'm fighting the dialogue in my head calling me pathetic and stupid and telling me all the ways it's my own fault, or worse that it's just my lot in life, this it's all I'm for. all people see in me .
etc

I don't know how I could tell anyone about it, even my therapist .
I'm really disappointed by myself and I guess I dont want her to be disappoiunted in me too. I want it not to have happened, I dont want it to be real.

I don;t really have any real life support apart from my therapist which i guess is part of how i could be so totally desperate for friendly company and a hug from someone that i ended up putting mkyself in such a dangerous situation
so hopeful
so foolish
hence PAthetic.

My head's all over the place and I just want to crawl out of my skin.

I'm alternating between feeling unbearably hurt and sad and sick, just disgusted, , and being really dissociated not here at all. Thanks for letting me post here.

ImplodingExploding has your therapist given you any techniques for calming/soothing yourself, can you think of some things?
I'm flying blind a bit but something like swaddling yourself might help? You are welcome, no need to thank me:) there are lots of people on MN who want to help you and there will be people who can relate closely to your situation.
The disgust belongs to the other person, it's not on you, this person sounds like a predator who knowingly exploited you, that makes them disgusting, not you

(I have done lots of really stupid & dangerous things, tangled with men that any sane person wouldnt touch with a bargepole, I put this down to being abused as a young child)

Thanks Ulterego for sharing that, I can identify with that very much. I had hoped it was all in my past. I hadn't even had any sexual contact with anyone for years - longest in my life - and hadn't been raped by anyone for years longer than that. Feel I've gone backwards, or stuck in a loop I'\ll never get out of.

I went and had another bath, I need to ease off on that because of my eczema now kicking off badly. . Funny you mentioned swaddling, I bought myself a lovely weighted blanket recently, it helps a lot, but I keep forgetting it apart from bedtime. Got it around me now, it is soothing.

I haven't cried at all since it happened. I must need to.

I'm scared about the future. Shame is toxic and I'd done so well before at shifting it, but it's like this has confirmed all the bad stuff in my head.

Thanks again, know you said i didnt need to thank you, but i am really grateful.

@herocomplex yea it was exactly the same dynamic in my family too!! And because we were children we were so easy to manipulate to take sides without knowing what they were doing.
My mum absolutely loves being in the middle. She fell out with my sister this week and because I didn't take her side and tried to see it from my sisters point of view she started crying. I thought she was upset to begin with but I actually think it's because she wasn't at the centre of the triangle anymore!! The most I have counselling the more I see how selfish she is and how she disguises good deeds as selfish self indulgences