"But we took you to Stately Homes" January 2020 onwards

[toomuchtooold]

It's January 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
May-August 2019
August-October 2019
November-December 2019

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Yoshi I think that when you cut down to LC the parent can tend to cling on harder and every interaction with them becomes triggering for you.
Your mother has chosen to fall on you rather than helping herself, are you willing to sacrifice your wellbeing to prop her up?

If it's her or you, who's it going to be? Is it fair that she should drag you down like this?
If you make yourself unavailable it may trigger her to find some inner strength, if you don't she will wrap around you like a boa constrictor and slowly squeeze the life out of you.

Hello yoshimi! It’s hard isn’t it when they’re lonely and vulnerable, we feel obliged to help them or at least not do anything to upset them. Yet ironically they would never go out of their way to help or look after us in a similar situation, as everything is always about them.

Your post made me laugh lemon - my mother used to ramble on for hours too and I could never get her off the phone. I used to put the timer on my oven and, after it beeped, say I had to go as dinner was ready. Or go outside and ring the door bell and pretend somebody was there. It never worked, she’d keep rambling on anyway. So I used to get on with the housework whilst intermittently hmming down the phone for two hours. I used to dread calling her - I only did it because I felt obliged to speak to her on occasion.

It has now been a whole year since I’ve actually had a phone conversation with my mother. The texts she sends have also become less and less. She’s running out of ideas of how to provoke me to respond. She also moved house recently and I haven’t asked where to. It’s strange, I have idea where she is, but I’m not going to ask. I think about her every day. I think I’m still grieving, not so much for her I think, but for the mother I deserved but never had.

I often wonder if I’m doing the wrong thing and being too harsh in cutting her out of my life. I think about the nice things that she has done, but have to remind myself that it does not make up for the fact that she acts abysmally towards me most of the time.

It's very true that my withdrawing has provoked more of an aggressive approach from my Mum... although I sort of feel relieved it has come to a head and I can see things more clearly. It is upsetting when I've been so kind and compassionate and dutiful over the years to realise that's not how she sees it. When I'd mentioned that she hasn't visited us for years (I have visited at least every few months) she said that she'd made the effort to come and see me at Uni- that was 26 years ago! It was a bit of an eye-opener to realise we have such different experiences of the same relationship.

Well earlier tonight I popped around to see DM and DF. The football results happened to be on the TV at the time and DM went off on a huge rant because there was a woman commentator on. Apparently it was stupid and ridiculous and women don't know anything about football and they shouldnt have women commentators for football basically...

It was so totally random and ridiculous that I called her out on it. Pointed out that lots of women like football, and men commentate for womens sports so why shouldnt be the other way around. She became all huffy over it, but this is her. She is so completley and utterly vile about other women, so very bitchy and unkind. She hates other women and see's them as competition and Im included in that.

She has never had any close female friends . She has her sisters, a few acquiantances and she had a mum friend when DB and I were little, but that was more out of convenience as we were friends with her children. She doesn't have a group of friends to go out and go for coffee with.

What all this means I dont know? I think this is why she clings to me so much to fill the void left by not having anyone to hang out with.

yoshimi
It is upsetting when I've been so kind and compassionate and dutiful over the years to realise that's not how she sees it
I would suggest that in her mind she is the master you the servant, therefore it is right and proper that you should be doing all the work, your role (as she see's it) is to work for her, for free, or you're a kind of appliance like the washing machine

Manon
She has never had any close female friends
no fucking wonder eh, you're the only 'mug' (sorry for calling you that) who'll put up with her.
Next time she goes off on one you could make a huge row out of it, storm off and never go back
(I know, it's not that simple)

Can I join in please? I really need to share my story but it's very long and possibly quite triggering (my sister passed last year and the birther is partly responsible) I have zero people to talk to about it that are interested. I'm supposed to put it in a cupboard and just get on with things now... (that's what my in-laws say) thing is I can't. I have kept my mouth shut for years whilst trying to ignore the damage and slander. I want to scream to all the family that haven't spoken to me wtaf. I have been waiting for "urgent" counselling for 7 months now :( if you know where I can share my story without upsetting anyone please can you let me know x much hugs to you all btw it's a long and lonely path at times x

Hi Obviouslymarvellous 😊
I'm so sorry that you lost your sister💐
Please share your story and we will do our best to help and support you.

Ty @Ulterego I'm not sure even where to start... I will start with my sister if that's ok. My sister lived with the birther I was no contact with both of them (I had been nc on and off for years) my sister was so weak mentally and believed anything the birther said. She made my sister believe she was very ill when she wasn't and basically made her a recluse. I tried desperately for years to get her out of there but she wouldn't leave. Last year when I was on holiday I got a call from my cousin who told me my sister had died from an overdose. To cut a long story short she had been taking lots of non prescribed drugs (I knew about her taking odd ones from the birther) but not to the extent the police found. A drug dealer was involved, the birther and neighbours. The birther had been sourcing tablets for her to take. My sister died from a respiratory decompression where her heart slowed to the point it just gave up. The birther has played the victim since - tried to kill herself three times, refused to attend the inquest as mentally struggling but meanwhile was sunning herself on holiday. My sister and I were so close and I'm so angry that the birther has gotten away with it - like she does everything. None of her side will speak to me other than an aunt and a cousin the rest think I am evil and should be supporting her. At my sisters funeral I was shunned and the birther made it all about her doing dramatic stunts with flowers, it was pathetic. My uncle who gave me away at my wedding refuses to even speak to me. I am hurting too. I have since been told the birther is an alcoholic which I should have known as half the issues I had with her were with her buying whiskey instead of food. I guess when it's under your nose it's harder to see sometimes? Anyway I just wanted to share it, I can't go into too much detail re the drugs as there is an investigation but she has never been arrested just questioned. Sorry if I've triggered anyone. I just needed to let it out x

You have nothing to apologise for Obviouslymarvellous
From what you say the female parent or birther as you refer to this person (I'm guessing that for very understandable reasons you don't want to use the word that one would normally give to a female parent, she does not deserve that title?)
This must be so painful for you, are you able to access any real life support? You mentioned that you've been waiting for therapy, is there anyone, any friends who are in your corner?
Obviously this is a sensitive subject because there is an investigation going on so you have to tread carefully.
The birther...it sounds like they have the classic sociopathic/narcissistic traits but this person presumably realises that things could go very badly for them if they are held accountable for what happened?
I'm so sorry for what you're going through Obviouslymarvellous💐

yoshimi I think she has very low self esteem and pulls other women to pieces to make herself feel better. She’s never been any different.

obviouslymarvellous I'm sorry to hear your story. It must have been so hard dealing with your sister's death in these circumstances. I can't imagine.

manon sounds like you've hit the nail on the head there. But it must be hard to cope with listening to the rants!

It's been interesting writing this all down. I feel like the behaviour escalated last autumn when I was diagnosed with cancer. (I'm fine now, following surgery) It clearly changed the dynamic where I wasn't around to help... but also made me notice things more as I was hoping/ expecting to be supported rather than attacked. DH thinks it's always been like this but I've been able to ignore it.

I actually feel really nervous just to post here!

Yoshimi

You've been basically trained and otherwise conditioned by your mother (and she is not worthy of being called that at all) to put her first with you dead last. This is the sort of behaviour that narcissistic mothers do to their unfortunate offspring. You are probably one of the very last, if not the only, person to actually bother with her; again this is because she instilled your buttons and trained you to do so. There is good reason why people like your mother (and for that matter my MIL) have no friends, female or male. Its because they are narcissists.

It is NOT your fault your mother is like this and you did not make her that way. She has taken the low road here and instead of seeking the necessary help, made you her personal scapegoat for all her inherent ills. It really is NOT possible to have a relationship with someone like this who is so disordered of thinking.

Do read the Out of the FOG website too.

And please do not feel nervous about posting here. Those fears of yours are utterly unfounded and without actual foundation.

@AttilaTheMeerkat that's interesting that you say they will have no friends as my birther (I can't bear to call her anything like what a normal relationship would be and I usually refer to her as the narc tbh) anyway the narc has quite a few friends and plenty that take in all her bs. Her family have flocked round here (I am the black sheep) my uncle is disgusted when me as he feels I should be there for her but as I pointed out to others my late grandfather was an alcoholic and he beat my uncle (just as I have been beaten) my uncle didn't speak to him at all yet I'm supposed to give her sympathy. I was very sad she didn't succeed with the suicide attempt (yes I'm horrid for saying it) but it would have given me peace. The thing is she knew exactly what she was doing with the suicide as again it's all the attention on her. If she wanted to do it, she would have believe me! Anyway it's me that has a very small circle of friends as I almost don't trust anyone, and I have only told one person about it but I'm ashamed to tell them the details x I will have a look at that out of the fog website too as I really want to make sense of it all

Ps do any of you not remember much about your childhood. - I only remember small bits that were bad until the last few months and now I'm remembering much more it's like my sisters death has triggered lots.

How have people who have been LC or NC with parents dealt with the inevitable bad health or news that comes with advancing age?

Haven’t spoken to my DM since the big blow out with her and my DF. I txt and said if she wanted to meet up and try talk about it I would meet her and this was ignored.

Yesterday was an event that my sister threw for me for a big bday (they knew about it - had been told the date etc before the ‘big row’) and didn’t hear a thing and they didn’t show up. All my DH’s family asked were they not coming and all we said was they couldn’t make it.

Forward to this morning and my DM txt to say my DF has to go for more invasive tests next week following on from an MRI before Xmas. And to ‘say a prayer all will be ok’.

Literally no idea how I’m supposed to feel. Also the contact is bizarre. Nothing from my DF (not unusual) but random messages from my DM. She has not seen my DS since before New Years.

Lemon

I think your mother is trying to manipulate you again, now it’s more tests etc for your father along with this ‘and to say a prayer all will be ok’. It’s all designed to tug at you, some toxic parents do indeed use hospital tests to further pull their what they see as errant offspring back into line. His appointment is likely to be a routine follow up spot post scan.

Do not respond to any messages.

Btw there was never any point whatsoever to try and talk about any of this with her. She is not interested in you or your opinion, the only opinion that matters to her is her own. Her husband continues to be her sidekick and enabler.

These people were not good parents to you when you were growing up and they have not fundamentally changed a bit.

Keep yourself and any dc you have well away from them going forward.

My mother tried to pull be back in by buying some stupid funeral plan and adding me as next of kin so I would have to deal with her when she was ill/dead.

It completely backfired. It was actually one of the things that finally made me go fully NC. Her assuming that I would drop everything without even being asked or having a discussion about it just showed that my feelings are never taken into account - even when she's dead!

I have had minimal contact for years, have no partner or other financial support to be able to take time off work etc etc. GC sister who uses my mother has much as my mother uses her can deal with it all. She doesn't work, lived off my father till she got married, and has lots of time on her hands now her kids are older.

I know my mother probably knows my sister will struggle as she was so spoilt she's totally incompetent at any kind of life admin. Not my problem. The pair of them will have to grow up and work it out between them.

I agree Lemon27, by ignoring the contacts you made (the text suggesting talking and your event) and then issuing a health summons she’s doing a classic manoeuvre.

Can you imagine anyone with normal sense or reason behaving like that? It’s not logical behaviour is it?

Re: Being NC and them getting old and sick...

I'm NC with my Dad for 21 years now. Last year, via Flying Monkeys he said he needed to meet with me as I would be taking care of him in his old age as his Wife du jour had just died the week prior. I said to the Flying Monkey - "Wanna Bet?" End of.

He sends me letters which I never open. I can tell from feeling some of the envelopes, they have gift cards inside. I know he's monitoring the balance of the gift cards to see if it goes down so he can complain that I won't speak to him but I am happy to take his money. He's an idiot. I never open those envelopes.

I'm not worried about him getting old and having no one. He will manipulate some next woman into taking care of him. I have no doubt in my mind. He's always kept a lot of women (me included up until age 30) on the back burner forever weighing his options and who he can use for whatever purpose.

You just have to shut it down. They will take you as far you let them.

He will manipulate some next woman into taking care of him. I have no doubt in my mind
I agree!
I noticed this with my male parent, his mission over the last few years has been assembling a team of helpers, he 'recruited' (as his GF) a woman who has 2 daughters of her own and was trying to steer me into accepting her as a mother figure, it was all very weird and felt very staged.
He's done some weird things trying to trick me, I just know that he's waiting to try and trap me in a situation where I cant back out and he can just collapse onto me.
I was kinda going along with him until there was a big crisis in my life and he just tried to brush it away and make me focus on him, then the mask slipped and I saw it all.
I feel as if I can read his mind and I know when he's lying and what he's planning to do, like I always had these jigsaw pieces available but didnt see a need to assemble them before.

@Ulterego - about reading their minds.

I mentioned this some posts back. They trained us too well in a way - at some point it was always going to come and bite them. We know them so well and as we've seen from all the other posts on here their behaviour is all the same and therefore predictable.

anyway the narc has quite a few friends and plenty that take in all her bs
what you describe sounds quite clannish and there's a 'crabs in a bucket' feel of everyone dragging everyone else back in.
Re the suicide attempt, when someone does something extreme like that it creates chaos and confusion, the narcs then roll up their sleeves because everything is up in the air and they can really get to work, take control of the narrative etc, she's playing them all and drawing them out, taking it all in feeling for what to do.

They trained us too well in a way
indeed, they want clever servants who make them look good, but they know that the more clever the quicker we can size them up and seize back our power