"But we took you to Stately Homes" November 2019 onwards thread

[toomuchtooold]

It's November 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
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March 2011
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October-November 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

It's all academic, whether she has it or not as she's abusive so I'm keeping away from her. Her behaviour towards me the last time I saw her was appalling. It's just a shame because she was the only person in the family who actually called me to see how I was and seemed to care about my welfare. I don't have that now. She also defended me to my mum but she doesn't do that now. She seems to have taken my mother's side and keeps shouting at me. When she's not asking me to act as some kind of servant. I hung in there because I would obviously like to have some family but it seems that isn't possible.

I agree Parmesan, when someone falls into the 'totally batshit crazy' category you just have to quarantine them in order to protect yourself
Not that they don't deserve help and understanding, they do but it needs to come from a professional, you should not sacrifice your own well-being for them!

But, I'm no longer putting up with abusive behaviour for the sake of having a family.

It is so sad when it comes down to that parmesan. And it often does in these circumstances.

Thank you @myduckiscooked and @Ulterego I really appreciate it. Yes it is sad when it comes to either putting up with abuse or not having a family. It took me a very long time to see that I just couldn't keep putting myself through it because it makes me so ill. The last time I saw my dad, I couldn't stop shaking. It was really strange, like I had Parkinson's. I now spend Christmas alone, which I love by the way, I organise a very special day for myself and it's so calm. I switch off my phone so I don't get any nasty messages. I don't open the card from my mother in case she's said something nasty in it to spoil my day - I'm doing my best to give myself the nurturing I never had.

For years I used to look to others to do that and, of course, the worst kinds sensed vulnerability and took advantage of that. I'm still not very good at looking after myself and stay in unhealthy situations too long. My family were so horrible, that I didn't realise people weren't supposed to treat you like that and it took me a long time to react to bad behaviour from others.

I'm also rarely fully 'present' because I mentally distance myself. So if someone says something nasty to me for example, a so called friend called me a 'fucking bitch' - I just stand there paralysed and it's only in hindsight I can do something like keep away from her. I can't say anything at the time for some reason.

I don't open the card from my mother

I call those growlers, Parmesan. They lie there unopened and growl at you.

Best thing to do with growlers is to bin them, shred them, or in the case of gifts, give them to the charity shop. Don't them sit in the drawer or the cupboard.

Parmesan I have spent the last number of months preparing myself for having no family member left as I just could not stand dealing with the last one left so I hear you.

My home life was emotionally damaging throughout my childhood. That created a very toxic soup of bullying and power play between my siblings which culminated in the sexual abuse.

Most of my siblings are actually good people but only not within that toxic family dynamic.

I had the choice, put up with that horrible dynamic going forward of dismissing, minimising, undermining me or cut the last member off. I could not spend anymore time being caught up in my families toxic interactions so I walked.

a so called friend called me a 'fucking bitch' - I just stand there paralysed and it's only in hindsight I can do something like keep away from her. I can't say anything at the time for some reason
I guess this could be interpreted as down to childhood training, you learned that it was best not to retaliate in the moment but you have that protective mechanism to keep away in future. In many ways it might be best not to rise to attacks like that, to distance yourself from people rather than getting embroiled with them.
I love your special Christmas day and I have done the same myself

Oh goodness, I didn’t think of that @Ulterego and @parmesan189 about dealing with people being rude to me. I often do nothing, just kind of take it. But you’re right, it’s the freeze response.

@SingingLily What I mean by don't open them, is that they go in the bin. I don't keep cards from my mum. The last one I opened asked me to get in contact because 'life is short'. Now I don't open them.

@myduckiscooked I'm sorry to hear that. It's very difficult when you see their good side as well as their bad. I know how badly my siblings are because of our upbringing and for years, I put up with their abuse and scapegoating because I understood why they were doing it. I just can't put up with it anymore, it's too damaging to my mental health. Their behaviour is really, really bad though. I didn't realise how bad until I began to get healthier and saw it. I also realised why I had so many abusive friends. That's what I was used to and I had no way of sticking up for myself because I 1. didn't know how and 2. was too frightened of the reaction I would get because as a child, I was hit for it.

@Ulterego yes it is training from a very young age to accept the unacceptable. The paralysis is because I'm waiting to be hit as I'm under attack. I also have a kind of disassociation where I distance myself from emotions at the time and may feel them later. It never quite hits me at the time what someone is saying because I'm distanced from it. If I had actually allowed myself to be fully in the moment of my horrific childhood, I probably wouldn't have survived.

My Christmas is amazing. I clean the house, have lovely soft sheets on the bed. Tree, lights, great food and wine and have a really lovely day. I actually look forward to it.

I am a person who only really feels safe and relaxed when alone, I feel this is due to childhood stuff, learning from an early age that the people who are supposed to protect are not really in your corner, even if you dont consciously recognise it the innerself/unconscious always makes it's calculations and acts to keep you safe (even if you do rationalise what you are doing and not connect it with the unconscious intentions)

Parmesan, afaik the freezing and dissociating is part of the fight or flight thing, if you cant fight or flee you freeze and dissociate so as not to fully experience the trauma. Have you thought about EMDR (apologies if it's already been suggested)

@parmesan189 - I so agree with the learning to accept the unacceptable comment. I've had a tricky time the last few years unpicking the good relationships from the bad amongst my social circle. I've basically been bullied by an old friend for a few years and it's taken a long time to realise it. And to realise how terrifyingly similar some of their behaviour was to my mother's. The bullying, exclusion, manipulation, the threats etc And I just put up with it, made excuses for them, jumped through hoops, provided my own hoops, flaming ones, to jump through while shrouding myself in some kind expressionless emotionless blanket. Anything to keep it calm, keep the peace. This was my childhood remanifesting itself in adulthood. People used to ask me why I was still friends with this person and I would always come back with the same stock answer - Oh well we've been friends for years (about 25 years). The permanence made it like family, something I couldn't walk away from or detach myself from. I just had to put up and shut up. I mistakenly saw it as tolerance, a polite version of accepting the unacceptable, tolerance I had learnt through trying to navigate an awful childhood when I had no power to do anything else. In adulthood that tolerance, which I though made me a stronger person, turned out to just be enablement. I eventually walked away and went NC with shite friend and connected social group (with no warning, I never actually plucked up the courage to react or respond to anything she did in real time and the fall out has been very bad) The NC is something I haven't managed to do with my family, who remain LC, the ties that bind etc. But it has probably been one of the biggest catalysts for examining the effects my childhood has had on the rest of my life and my relationships with others, which sounds positive but has been heartbreaking and exhausting. Hopefully it'll be platform for better things.

Reading everyone's stories on here has been so sad, I'm so sorry everyone has been through the things they've been through, truly.

Getoff family relationships have such a strong familiarity it is almost harder not to replace them in future relationships.

Replicate them even

@getoffmylilo I'm really sorry about your rubbish friend! I've had quite a few throughout the years.
Did the social group contact you after you left? If not then you know they are not people you want in your life.

I also have found it hard to confront so called friends. Other people comments on a particular friend and said why do you let her speak to you like that. It's not until it was pointed out that I noticed! It was so familiar to me because of my childhood that I didn't notice. Like you @getoffmylilo I cut contact suddenly with her. It was an accumulation of things in a small period. I wish I could disconnect from my family as easily as I did this person.

@myduckiscooked - your sister. My sister is also totally in denial about our childhood and family as a whole. It makes it so very much harder to deal with. We were never close but we had a shared history that only we had, which should have been a bond of sorts and on a good day that works, but she's has spent a lot of her life trying to hide all of it and lashes out if there's ever a situation where we have to deal with something family related for fear of some lie she's told coming to light. It's like a minefield. I also agree that the emotional abuse is the worst thing to deal with, it just sticks like glue. How are you feeling about the NC? You're very brave.

@jinglebells10 - one of the group is the best friend of the person in question and despite being lovely choses her battles wisely. I wouldn't expect her to do anything. Having said that she also was more aware than most about how awful it was getting and must have been complicit to some degree with some of what was going on. Another friend has been in touch but very much as a member of the social group, not just as herself, just the odd text message. I know she's been lied to a lot and tempting as it is to try and meet up with just her it will back fire. The rest are silent. I thought it through long and hard before walking away so knew what I was getting myself in to to some extent. I also wish I could disconnect with my family in the same way as you but I just can't, partly because it feels like I've left it to late now, my parents are getting old and despite my mother still being completely toxic to be around I feel like I'd be the bad person for upsetting her at this stage. But then she could go on for another 20 years..........

it feels like I've left it to late now, my parents are getting old and despite my mother still being completely toxic to be around I feel like I'd be the bad person for upsetting her at this stage. But then she could go on for another 20 years..........
are you willing to sacrifice yourself to them? The iron grip will tighten as they age and feel their powers waning

That's interesting about the paralysis when under attack. I think of it as detachment - I just kind of unplug myself from the present and shut down. I didn't know that was a thing. I'm also a magnet for horrible friends because in the past, I haven't listened to my instincts but I'm trying very hard to rectify that now. And cut the unhealthy relationships out of my life!

I was sort of aware that it was a thing but haven't really given it that much thought until recently
drarielleschwartz.com/the-neurobiology-of-trauma-dr-arielle-schwartz/#.XeBhcFXLdxA
Also try googling the freeze response to trauma etc for more info

@PollyDangerCrackers - I'm trying very hard too. I have good friends, I don't need the bad ones. I'm trying a crack down on people pleasing.

@Ulterego - this is exactly what's been happening, my mother's behaviour has become really extreme as she no longer feels like she's the centre of attention. I think there's a bit of early dementia mixed in just because of some memory things and really bizarre paranoid accusations but it's hard to tell. I'm lucky to have a couple of close friends in the same boat and we talk a lot about it but I'm aware that my situation is more extreme and complicated and my fears are actual fear.

@Ulterego I'm sorry you feel the same. I was referred to EMDR but the consultant said that it would not be suitable for me as it was for one of traumatic incidents rather than long term trauma. I have been put down for one to one therapy instead. Thank you for the suggestion though. My inability to stay in the moment is, apparently, PTSD and it's being triggered. So I'm mentally a powerless child rather than a grown adult. It's very frustrating as I'd like to calmly ask someone not to talk to me that way but, unfortunately I can't react in the moment. I actually start shaking because I'm terrified.

@Getoffmylilo I've had almost identical experiences. I make friends with people like my mother or like my siblings who are bullies. My best friend at university was terrifying and I didn't speak to her about her behaviour as I was frightened she'd attack me. It's only when I look back that I realise how ridiculous that it.

I did the same as you, I got rid off all those people who I was looking after and helping and were taking from me and being abusive. Another friend I had at university who I helped through break ups and loads of other things, got drunk and held some broken glass under my throat in the street. Some man came over and helped me as he saw it. All my friends were lunatics like my family and I just didn't see it as I was so used to it. I still do it now and it takes me a while to walk away. It's very difficult for me to be able to trust myself and my instincts.

One of my worst mistakes was actually my cousin. I supported her through a breakdown while I was recovering from PTSD from an abusive relationship. It turned out that she liked my ex, thought I deserved it as I was 'difficult' and didn't see what the problem was. Of course, I found this out years later when we were discussing him. I didn't realise at the time that she not only felt that way but was really quite sick in the head. When I most needed support, she was on the side of my abuser and lying about having a breakdown as she just wanted attention. - See how naive I am and how I don't look after myself? I should have been looking for support myself instead of spending what energy I had on her. Didn't occur to me to put myself first.

The first time I had therapy, I was 27 and felt really uncomfortable because we were talking about me. I had never in my life had anyone sit down and show an interest in my feelings. I tried to turn the conversation back to her as it felt strange. Yet I had loads of so called friends...no wonder I was popular. Who doesn't like someone without needs who gives you all the help and attention you want? (like my mother)

@parmesan and @getoffmylilo it's funny how we repeat our childhood through other relationships. I find it extremely hard to form new friendships now as I keep people at arms length. I find it hard to let people in as I don't trust them after most of my friendships before have been take, take, take and betrayal.

I will say though I am slowly sticking up for myself. The other week a guy at work who I speak to was extremely rude to me. He suffers with bad depression and he turned to me when he was upset and in a bad place. I told him I understood as I had been there and offered advice. Anyway a couple of weeks ago he decides in front of other guys to belittle me in a "joke" manner. Called me fatty and saying he could roll me down a hill all because I said I wanted another cake some one had brought in. He then stood up and said pretty loud ok fatty. At the time I froze and didn't say anything. But later I messaged him and told him how inappropriate he was and I'm for a joke but not at someone else's expense. He's now off work sick and usually I'd worry I was some thing to do with that but not this time. MH is no excuse to treat someone in that way. Sorry a bit long but just liked to share standing up for myself as it's very rare I have in the past. I either let it go or cut them off without explanation.

I also agree that the emotional abuse is the worst thing to deal with, it just sticks like glue. How are you feeling about the NC? You're very brave.

Not brave at all getoff I just have too. What they have done is just so far removed from being acceptable to me and couple that with almost a lifetime of emotional invalidation by them, I’ve reached my limit. The NC have happened one by one, it has been like being bereaved in multiple occasions across 2 years so very, very tough but I am never sorry once they are over.

I have spent the last few months googling and trying to find ways to put up with my DBs relatively recent invalidating behaviours, he was very supportive of me for a long time, but I just could not cope with them any longer. Everyone had a vision for how I should behave and what I should do and I could not be forced any longer to put up with their crazy visions of what was right for me in these circumstances.

I have actually recently started EMDR therapy for Complex PTSD. I will let you know if it is any use. I sought it out myself after reading the body keeps the score which is a fantastic read for anyone with PTSD.

Regarding problematic and abusive ‘friendships’, I’m convinced damaged people make a beeline for me. I’ve had a series of friends who have similar personalities, my DH asked me once how it was I attracted such needy women when I’m not like that at all.

Does anyone else have problems with making decisions for yourself? I always doubt my decisions and seek reassurance from other people to see if I'm doing the right thing.

On the subject of friendships, I've had some shockers over the years, to the point where I spent ten years avoiding making any friends because I didn't trust my judgement.

A couple of years ago I let a woman into my life and a year down the line, found myself sitting in silence while she yet again, criticised me, boasted about herself, and harangued me over something that was not my fault. At the end of lunch I went 'mwah mwah, I'll phone you in the week!' walked away, cried, and then blocked her on everything (over a few weeks - I'm not that brave!) I've never seen her again.

I was reading a book called, I think, The Gift of Fear and it talked about how we are taught to ignore our instincts, and I thought about this ex-friend. When I first met her, I disliked her straight away, but when she bulldozed her way into my life (and I'm good at keeping people out), I kept telling myself that she was ok, she was lonely, it couldn't hurt to befriend her, and taa daa! I was stuck with another awful friend 🙄

Like a lot of abused children, I was taught to ignore those warning bells, and to put other people's needs ahead of my own, but I'm trying now to listen to my instincts. It's mother's voice in my head that's saying 'you're lucky someone wants to be your friend, most people don't like you, you little drama queen - what's so special about you? You are ugly, you are boring' but my mother is spiteful and bullying so I'm allowed to discount anything she says...

I am now tentatively joining in with a group of decent friends, and it is hard - i want to run away because they can't possibly like me, but I have to be strict with myself and tell myself that I fit in, I'm ok, and that I have every right to have my voice heard.