"But we took you to Stately Homes" November 2019 onwards thread

[toomuchtooold]

It's November 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
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October-November 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Polly 😓

But you can see why I'm so cross with myself that I let her back into our lives. She was horrible to me, and even my brother who was her favourite, escaped unscathed. I don't have a bond with her, and nor do my children, so it's crazy that I automatically went, ok - let's try to be friends, when she wanted to build bridges. And she wasn't even very nice when she was trying her best to be friends with me. She let me down every time!

Sorry, my brother didn't escape unscathed. Some of her behaviour with him crossed some serious barriers, despite him being her fave.

Reading it back, I can see how fucked up she was 😧

Polly 💐

@PollyDangerCrackers are you getting any help? I’d say what you’re describing is PTSD.

What a monster.

@polly it's a basic biological compulsion I think that keeps pulling us back. Some emotional pull/bond (that we developed when we were little and defenceless and had to cling onto them when we were young to try and feel safe) that is a hard one to break, even when you know it's very bad for you. She sounds like a real nasty bitch. Sorry you got landed with her as a mother !

@toomuchtooold@ yes that's me. It has got a million times better since but then it comes back. In truth she was OK at the weekend until I suggested that she didn't unplug the TV overnight as DH was busy setting it up and she might destroy all the work he'd done. (He had gone to bed at this point). This resulted in a lecture as to all the dangers of leaving it plugged, my attempt to explain my reasoning met with the answer "If I can't unplug it everynight he can come down in the morning and undo all he's done" he being my DH (she hardly ever refers to him by name unless she has to.) So in a matter of minutes we went from calm to her hectoring. This is why I am always on edge with her.
@AttilaTheMeerkat@ If I cut off them I'd risk losing all my extended family who mean a great deal to me but you're right I do need some counselling on how to deal with her. I've got my DDs working on how to put her off, so she uninvites herself (she's got form for cancelling last minute).

@Spodge@ yes I think that might just work. She knows about DD's boyfriend coming but not that I am thinking of inviting anyone else. Might even tell her I'm thinking of inviting my neighbour too.

@PollyDangerCrackers@ your mother sounds so much like mine, except I was never physically abused. Never does anything in front of others. Is charming to their face, then criticises them.

@frami
A very useful phrase when dealing with difficult people is ‘that’s not going to work for me’, it needs no explanation or follow up. It’s a statement, not a feeling.

polly have you read Toxic Parents I'm currently reading it atm and find it's really helping. Maybe it will for you too? I'm so sorry you had to endure that. No child should feel so unsafe in their home. Your mum sounds like she has some serious MH problems

the crazy attack starting. You try to explain that to a counsellor or a teacher who believes that my mother is a wonderful mother and is a victim of my 'violent behaviour
my feeling is that the wonderful behavior and the demonic behavior are 2 sides of the same coin, they are linked, the magnitude of her cruelty is equal to the magnitude of her 'charismatic' side. She keeps at this heightened level but within it she goes from good to bad.
This is psychological torture for you, it's a wonder she's not under someone's patio
Polly it does sound as if some treatment to deal with the trauma she's put you through might be a good idea?

I think my mother started out bored and resentful at being left behind - she was away from her family, my father was abroad most of the time, she was stuck going to Tupperware parties and doing school runs, when she wanted to be important, adored, admired. So what started out as her just taking her frustration out on the kids, became exciting in itself because no one was stopping her. When she met her second husband who was far more critical and would have been appalled at her violence, she stopped lashing out completely, sorted herself out, changed her job to something far better and reinvented herself as a firm but fair person. She now talks about her life as a young mother as if she sometimes had to make tough decisions and her kids resented her for it, but it was for our own good. Like the Facebook memes that say 'I'm not your friend, I'm your mother so I do this that and the other'. That's how she remembers it now - she has airbrushed all most of it out. She and her husband are now vair vair posh, financially well off, well travelled, and her vicious temper is well under control (except occasionally when little signs leak out!)

I have read some of the recommended books like Toxic Parents, and the one about Narcissistic Mothers among others, but maybe I need to try them again. I'm not good at self-care and I assume that's quite usual?

How very very chilling Polly, there is a vicious cruel bullying side to your mother that she now keeps completely under wraps apart from the occasional lapse😯 (I am reminded of my father 😲😳)

Exactly Ulterego - it's all hidden behind her new respectable facade! Verbally, she's highly critical and judgemental behind people's backs, but when she's had a couple of glasses of wine, the real spite leaks out.

And once, DH and I witnessed her gripping my brother's daughter's arm way too tightly and hissing abuse at her because DN had accidentally irritated her. I intervened at once, and kept DN with me until I could speak to my brother, who shrugged it off as DN didn't seem upset (wtf?). But DH was really upset as it was the first time he'd seen that side of my mother.

It is pretty freaky isn't it when someone 'flashes' and changes in an instant, I sometimes wonder if that's what David icke is talking about... with the reptiles and all that?

My uncle contacted me today and wants to meet up. I haven't seen him for over a year. I went to visit him and my aunt and was staying for a few days. He was meant to be looking after his three grandchildren and dumped them on me for five hours until 8pm.

I found out that their father had been at home all along and asked why he couldn't look after his children and my uncle basically kicked me out of the house. I stayed in a house owned by my other uncle (I was abroad) for the rest of the time I was there. My aunt was awful to me as well, asked me to weed her massive garden which was the size of a field, clean her conservatory windows and tidy her house. When I said no, she turned vicious and I haven't spoken to her since either.

Now my uncle has contacted me (this happened in 2017) and I don't want to meet him. I think his response was totally disproportionate. I'm also wondering if he wants to talk about my mum (his sister) as I haven't seen her since 2016.

Then just brush him off, Parmesan, and absolutely do not feel guilty about it. He sounds a nightmare. Just a short text would do. "Too much on at the moment but have a good Christmas", something like that. Don't over-explain or give him anything to work with.

Then block him.

"Dear Uncle, how lovely to hear from you. Gosh is it already nearly 2 years since we last met? I suppose it must be otherwise you wouldn't be getting in touch. Conservatory needing another spring clean?"

No, SingingLily is right, you should just give him a polite fuck off, but it would be so tempting to post something like that...

I'm not good at self-care and I assume that's quite usual?

I think so, I find it hard. I don't know if anyone else identifies with this but I just feel like, in the course of a day, there are a bunch of things I want to get done with a certain level of urgency attached to each and the self care stuff is always the bottom of the pile. It just doesn't feel that important. Like, I know it is, but I just don't feel it is.

parmesan

What Singinglily wrote in its entirety. Please take heed. You will merely be used again by him. Do not JADE such a man like your uncle. JADE - justify, argue, defend or explain. Do not also get into any further communications with him because this will open doors that should otherwise remain closed so block him after sending a brief text message.

"@AttilaTheMeerkat@ If I cut off them I'd risk losing all my extended family who mean a great deal to me but you're right I do need some counselling on how to deal with her. I've got my DDs working on how to put her off, so she uninvites herself (she's got form for cancelling last minute)".

Frami

Please arrange some form of therapy and or counselling for your own self asap because you really do not know which way is up here. If I may give you some counsel re a therapist it is to find a person who has no familial bias.

Some of your extended family may cut you off if they are also in the thrall of your mother's malign infuences also because they do not want to be less favoured. She may use these people also as flying monkeys, narcissists in particular can and do use well meaning (and easily manipulated) relatives to do their dirty work for them. If they do this to you because of her, were they really worth knowing in the first place?.

Your DDs can help you but its really your task as well rather than theirs. You will need to tell her that she is not welcomed in your home.

Thank you for that reminder @AttilaTheMeerkat. I’m sure flying monkeys are coming at many of us over the next few weeks.

Goodwill to All Men extends only to those who do not seek to gaslight us.

Thank you. I had already blocked him and ignored his call. It's difficult because I'm highly unlikely to see them again as they're kind of old now and it just feels sad.

My uncle has always been a bit of an aggressive, sexist twat. (grabbed my mum by the collar once because she wasn't doing what he said) but my aunt was about the only person I got on with in the family. As she's got older, her behaviour has become really, really nasty. I'm wondering if she has dementia. I'm keeping away from her though as I've just had enough.

When a few closer friends have asked after my mother and I’ve briefly said we’re not in touch because of a difference of opinion (!!!!!) they’ve asked whether dementia might be the cause. People are very quick to suggest it.

Her mother, (my grandmother) had it, my two uncles (her brothers) had it, my other aunt (her sister) has it. This aunt hasn't been diagnosed but her behaviour is so different and has been for several years. However, it could just be old age or that the mask has finally slipped, I don't know.

Maybe she pretended to be nice all the way up to her 70s and now that she no longer has to, has turned into a monster like the rest of her brothers and sisters. I have no idea. All I know is that it's very sad as I'm going to keep away from her and probably won't see her again now. But, I'm no longer putting up with abusive behaviour for the sake of having a family.

My understanding is that there can be personality changes pursuant to dementia but those personality changes don't necessarily rise to the level of cognitive impairment
I also think it stands to reason that people who are domineering will still desire that same level of control over others as they age but will have to use more extreme tactics to gain said control.
And you have those who relied on looks and/or charm, when those have faded they seem to resort to lies