"But we took you to Stately Homes" November 2019 onwards thread

[toomuchtooold]

It's November 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Jinglebells10 I'm actually the opposite as I'm terrified of appearing weak, but I think we are probably two sides of the same coin. I put a confident veneer on but I always doubt myself.

@pollydangercrackers I've also read the gift of fear and I also ignored instincts on so many people! However I'm getting so much better at spotting red flags!
My mum would say similar if I aired my doubts about a person. She would also say i was over reacting and they couldn't possibly be that bad. So I would ignore my feelings and they turned out to be bad people. Sucking the emotional life out of me

Jinglebells10 I'm definitely on the indecisive side. And I wonder if its partly self-sabotage again as I miss so many opportunities and experiences due to just not being able to make a secision on my own - tickets sold out, someone else snatches up that perfect holiday villa, jobs not applied for, etc. I'm so scared of getting it wrong, realising I've wasted my money or disappointing not myself but my family if its not as good as I initially thought it might be. Instead I risk dying with regret about all those lost opportunities.

You are probably ahead of me then! I've only begun to recognise a red flag when I see one 😁

The stupid thing is, I clung to my mother's 'advice' about friends ('always put them fist, you should be honoured that someone would even like you, if they are horrible to you, well try harder then - it's always your fault') even though my mother NEVER HAD ANY FRIENDS! Other women are just competition to her. It was a real face palm moment when I recognised that.

Yes, my mother would always tell me about my sisters latest falling out with her friends, adding something about her never keeping people around for long once they ‘get to know her’. My sister has lots of friends, many of whom go back to schooldays. What my mother couldn’t stand was my sister had a great social life, going to lots of events and weekends away. Which my mother was green with envy about.
One of my oldest friends got pneumonia when we were teenagers, my parents both laughed when I told them, saying she must be exaggerating for attention.

When I think about these things now I don’t understand why I tolerated their cruelty to people for so long.

@Jinglebells10 I'm indecisive and procrastinate and overthink quite simple things, particularly if it involves anyone else - which once you add in the people pleasing part means I spend a lot of times just chasing my tail. When it comes to making decisions about my own life I'm far too busy treading water just in case something goes wrong and my inevitable down fall swiftly follows.

Regarding friendships, for me I always seem to gravitate towards people from a similar background ie dysfunctional. People who were healthy seemed boring. I think it's because I grew up around lots of 'drama' and unhealthy people can be quiet and stable which I wasn't used to. I also have anxiety and it makes me talk too much, I fill in silences, I can't relax, I people please, I'm self conscious...If I was normal I'd probably back away from me slowly.

I was the family clown and I found that I made people laugh. I entertained and my family liked that as it lightened the atmosphere but when I had needs, they weren't interested. I found that with friends as well. They liked me around to entertain them and to lean on as I was the strong one (having had to be self-reliant from a very young age). They didn't like giving me support though and distanced themselves when I was no longer amusing. I realised that I was being treated in the way my family treated me, I was recreating those scenarios.

Yes regarding ignoring instincts. I would describe a situation to my therapist and she would ask me why I stayed and it would never occur to me to leave a situation. I'd know instinctively that a person would be toxic or difficult to deal with but I would still maintain the friendship even though I was being trampled over. She said that I give people the benefit of the doubt, when I shouldn't. That's from years and years of being told that I'm wrong, so I second guess myself. I always assume it's me in the wrong, it couldn't possibly be them. I have to be told that by someone else. I need that validation to act.

Oh yes @Parmesan189 - it's never them, it must be me, must try harder, should or shouldn't have done this or that. I have to be told 'She's not your friend' and even then it doesn't work as I'm brilliant at making excuses for other people's behaviour, justifying why they've been horrible, I apologise for them when no apology is forthcoming. I'm everyone's voice but my own. To this day I can balance everything my mother ever did with a reason or excuse. It's like having a huge box of verbal sticking plasters.

@getoffmylilo yes I procrastinate so badly! I feel like I may be self sabotaging but no idea why I would. My counsellor mentioned self sabotaging relationships to me last year. Can't remember exactly what she said though. It's like when I'm doing something good for instance a qualification. I freak out and talk myself out of it. I will do anything else other than study for the qualification.

Procrastination is linked to low self-worth. If you don’t place any value on your own time or achievements you (subconsciously )deliberately sabotage yourself.

Value yourself, value your time, value your achievements. Easier said than done...

I will make decisions but will seek verification that they are correct or will give unecessary explainations. DH will often say something like of course it's fine, I trust your judgement or he will point out that he is not offended by the word no. I do not have to justify or apologise for it. I am really bad at going to the doctor, it's almost as though I need someone to tell me to go. This is definitely a hang-up from childhood where the narrative was that I was never ill. DM still refuses to take any ailment of mine seriously. Her first words to me when I was seriously ill in hospital were: "well you don't sound ill"

I am also lucky that I make friends easily and keep them though I do enjoy my own company very much too. Both traits annoy my mother no end. For example she thinks it totally weired that I am happy to travel and stay in a hotel on my own. Also she never has anything good to say about any of my friends, but this is the one thing that for some reason doesn't get to me. I like that it annoys her.

I am definitely struggling with procrastination - not just the fact of it, but trying to get any handle on how much effort I actually want to put into things vs doing things I like, whether that distinction is a reflection of what is up with me (do I fail to find joy in work because of childhood stuff?). I'm trying to tell the difference between toxic guilt and useful guilt, is there really a difference except in that non-toxic guilt nudges you to do things that help you in your life goals - and what should they be? In the last few years I've taken a real holiday from a lifelong habit of overachieving, I'm a SAHM with school aged kids so I have spare time and a good education, I "should" be able to make use ofbthis and do something cool if I want but I'm not sure what that would be (or whether I can be arsed committing to anything when I am so aware that I coukd be doing so much more in the UK) and I don't know that I want to go back to my old ways of just battering through everything regardless of whether I liked it, whether I'm being treated with respect by my boss, just throwing everything at my job in order to try and be perfect. I just can't be fucked with it. It worked wheb I was a kid and I needed a decent set of qualifications so I could be sure that I would be able to leave my parents' and never go back and never need their help. But I managed that by the time I was 21. Having managed that my intrinsic motivation levels went right through the floor but I was still motoring on, partly I guess as a result of being told the whole time at school how bright I was and then that being amplified by my mother who loved basking in the reflected glory. She loved to portray me to family and friends as this sort of highly strung genius scientist type who couldn't deal with day to day life. I think that was supposed to keep me dependent on her. I ended up in a branch of science that is really hands on and not at all rarefied - I spent a lot of days lugging big bits of equipment and turning stuff off and on again - I don't think any of the family ever got told that bit though.

But it's hard. That childhood-implanted idea that you have a god given talent, it would be a sin to waste it - I wish I could just put that out of my head. The world is packed full of people who are more talented and harder working than me, you know? I'm not Batman. I should be thinking about how to get a second career that serves me. But I hardly know where to start.

@toomuchtooold I feel the same as you. I was pushed so hard in my academics at school by my parents. Made to do my homework and project work without fail. However my Dsis was not pushed at all like this as she wasn't the "brains" so they said. She was more creative, that's their reason why they said. I always felt so much pressure from my mum to do well. When I reached early 20s I was lost I had no idea what to do as I had my heart set on one career but my parents made me feel guilty for ever leaving the county so I stayed. Now I'm in a professional job but I don't enjoy it may be that's why I procrastinate now. However I always procrastinated anyway. But my boss told me I have so much potential but I didn't know it. I second guess my self all the time. I need reassurance in my job and I hate that! I've always needed reassurance from my parents and I also hate that I do it. But it makes me feel safer if I do, if that makes sense.

Getoffmylilo Running on Empty by Jonice Webb has a section on procrastination abd is worth a read, but actually I really agree with Herocomplex that there is an aspect of not valuing yourself and therefore your time in it too.

Thanks @myduckiscooked. I know I value myself in my own little bubble, I just don't expect anyone else to value me. There have been some really good book suggestions on here. Reminds me, someone once pointed out that scattered amongst my book shelves are an abnormal (says who?!?) amount of books about isolation e.g. nuns, hermits, people lost in jungles, prisoners of war, people stuck on boats in the middle of the ocean, etc. It made me laugh - and then go back to reading An Evil Cradling by Brian Keenan.

Thanks @myduckiscooked I may read that later

Someone I know posted this on Facebook today.... it says it all really.

@slippermaiden that is really sad but feels quite true.

I have my first counselling session again after an 18 month break. I couldn't get the woman I saw previously which I'm really sad about because I felt she was really good and helped me enormously. I have a different woman this time so I'm Hoping she will be just as good. If not then it's back on the waiting list for me

Good luck @Jinglebells10 hope she’s what you’re looking for. I’m also really pleased that you’re not going to settle for someone who isn’t a good match, that sounds very healthy!

This thread has moved about 30 pages since the last time I posted, please forgive me I can't read all of it at once. It may have been posted before but does anyone have a real problem with pushing people away themselves? I don't mean to.. at least not consciously. But I'm on my own to begin with, with my daughter who is still small. No shared custody, all me. I can't talk to family about anything, because my family is like others described on here. I was in a bad place when I got pregnant, then moved fast away from where I was - but there wasn't much to leave. I ventured out in a new area but either didn't connect or I've found ways to destroy any chance at new friendships I've come across. I will admit I'm not well socialised and I'm old enough to be expected to be. I never fully understand the rules of conversation, I used to think I was autistic, but I don't know it could perhaps be attributed to nurture or lack of it. I always seem to say the wrong thing, weird people out without meaning to, offend somehow. I know I'm sensitive, and either overly needy or overly mistrustful. It's like part of me wants to push the whole world away, because I feel safer on my own. But really, really lonely.

I've never had a therapist. Am guessing this is the sort of thing they would look at.

I have had a number of different counsellors along the way Jingle in a way I see it as a positive - so long as they are good- because it helps me to draw a line under certain aspects of my recovery and move on to the next stage, so it might be a positive thing once you get through the background stage.

I’ve really been feeling so surprisingly good the last week. Always since I have reached the end with a family member I’ve felt this period of dread but this time it has just been very calm, something I had never expected.

Basically for the last 2 years one by one I seem to have tried to get people in my family to realise we had a family issue not just an abuse issue caused by my brother and one by one they just would not face up to that. I was trying to get them all to see something they were mostly blind too. Sorry I can feel this is going to be a long post because it just feels like the whole thing is finally falling into place for me while I am no longer trying to make other people in my family see the smaller issues.

There were problems in my family outside of the abuse. As I said I suspect that my father had an abuse history, I suspect he may have been both a victim and perpetrator of abuse but I don’t know the story. He was unpredictability aggressive in our childhood and although I loved him fiercely, I was very afraid of him. He was very misogynistic and it was a very patriarchical upbringing in old school Catholic Ireland. When the extent of my eldest brothers abuse came out so did his old dismissive and bullying and aggressive style towards me which had mellowed in the intervening years. He simply could not particularly see anything particularly wrong with my brothers behaviours towards my sister and me. He was just totally compromised by his own issues I suspect.

My mother had a very damaging way of engaging with us as children too, shaming, undermining, turning a blind eye towards our two older brothers bullying behaviours towards both girls. She tried really hard to do her best in many other ways but for many reasons she was compromised. She was utterly manipulative when I told her first about the abuse, shutting me down completely and placing herself in the prime victim spot something that continued right up until the last time I spoke to her when the scale of the abuse of my sister came out. It was actually horrific to listen to her. She had been an amazing grandmother to my children though which was such a completely hideous wrench for them too which was torture for me to deal with and a very sad loss for all of them.

My two older brothers subjected my sister and I to a childhood campaign of continuous bullying which went completely unchecked by our parents. If anything our parents undermined us further if we tried to complain about their behaviour. Boys were much more valued by both parents. This culminated in the sexual abuse campaign starting on my sister and me. In my case it was short lived I was 9 I think when it began and ended as I stood up to him and told him I would tell if he did it again. In my sister’s case it went on for almost a lifetime, at least 20 years of full on rape as it escalated.

My sister is in complete denial about the scale of the problem. She has finally faced up to the facts about the scale of our brothers abuse towards her but for the rest of it she has been chasing this “our family was perfect, outside of our single abusive brother” narrative which has offered a very attractive model for everyone else in the family to get on board with, but has meant I am on my own trying to get them to understand that the problems are much much deeper and much more pervasive than that.

As far as I am aware my father has been continuing his relationship with the abuser brother throughout. He certainly prioritised only that relationship after finding out the scale of the abuse right up until I stopped engaging with him relatively early on. At that time my mother had stopped speaking to my brother but it was her intention to rekindle that relationship in her own time.

The second non abusing older brother was initially an amazing support to me but later faltered away as I would not toe a solution he wanted. His low level aggressive, dismissive bullying behaviours from childhood started back up when I wasn’t doing what he wanted. He is actually in many, many ways a really good person but he has not addressed his part in the childhood issues yet and without a awareness of the role he plays in our family he cannot make the changes he needs to make a relationship between us possible. He is a fantastic father to his own children so I am in someways hopeful in the longer term that it may be possible for a relationship.

The second I stood up to my older brother recently the almost lifelong physical PTSD symptoms and anxiety evaporated and that is why it is so much easier these last few days I feel.

Sorry for all the waffling on, I just finally feel I have a fix on my story and I feel I need to voice it.

myfavourite I don’t know your backstory but in Over overcoming PTSD Pete Walker talks about the internal and external critic. He also speaks about 4 difference defensive types flight, fight freeze or fawn. For me I found my defensive type was fight. I could be quite caustic with that defense mechanism. What that book allowed me to do was become more aware of my critic on the rise and do more adaptive things in a difficult engagement. It has revolutionised my engagements with everyone except my family (see above for why not them).

2 useful facts I learned along the way was people love talking about themselves and some conversation stock phrases can open up conversations to allow them to do that. That has made my life so much easier while I been through this difficult phase of my life.

I think it’s entirely understandable @myfavouriterain. If you’ve been hurt by everyone it’s not a surprise you’d protect yourself.

But if you’re tired of feeling lonely and want to make some connections that’s going to involve some degree of risk.

One think to think about is how to make the most of the small interactions you have on a daily basis. Not friends, just people who you see on a fairly regular basis in your neighbourhood. There are connections, however small.

Obviously the advice about joining things and finding interests is the way to make relationships, but I know that’s sometimes easier said than done.

Thank you myduck. I have read it, maybe need to re-read it. My main instinct is probably freeze / flight, escaping literally or into compulsions. I hate conflict but on reflecting am probably coming across as combative sometimes. So people reject me on the basis of my behaviour, for example over explaining myself to them - and I get what I wanted all along - being alone /safe. Which would echo my childhood /teens... But I'm no psycho analyst so that may be utter rubbish.

At the moment I feel like id rather be alone than have more people angry /upset with me, more people avoid /reject me and tell others to do the same. Though that last bit may be paranoia.

Not sure how much of it can be attributed to upbringing, or lack of it, and what's compounded that experience since. And how much is just, me.

Hero it's that when I do make those connections, I destroy them. I've had some fledgling friendships over the past few years but have destroyed every one of them. I feel like everybody else is better off without me.

Except my daughter. She doesn't even see me cry, I hide it all from her. I try to make her life as normal as possible, but it feels like it's getting harder, she is a smart girl.