"But we took you to Stately Homes" November 2019 onwards thread

[toomuchtooold]

It's November 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
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May-August 2019
August-October 2019
October-November 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Just wanted to send my kindest thoughts to you, MoreNiceCereal. A psychologist colleague once explained to me that we all operate on core beliefs - things that we believe to be true and that give us the confidence to go out into the world everyday and cope with what life throws at us - but when one of those core beliefs is suddenly pulled out from under us, it's like a punch to the solar plexus. It affects everything. It changes our view of everything, and we start to question everything that we had once thought was true. It's the most horrible feeling. You had every right to believe that your mother - however flawed she might be - would have found enough shreds of decency to recognise the enormity of what happened to you but she didn't. It knocks you for six and I am so sorry for that. I hope you are safe now. 💐

Good morning, PollyDangerCrackers, and welcome.

Thanks SingingLily, yes that's makes perfect sense. I am safe, no worries there. It's more psychological and coping with reality. I feel that I'm working my way back in time - I got rid of my abusive ex, I left my patriarchal religion that facilitated his abuse, I see that my mother's husband is very much cut from the same cloth as my ex, but coming to terms with my mother is another hurdle. I'll do it, I'll manage, because I need to create a better story for my own DC. But it's a lot. It's just a lot.

I might take a break from processing it for a while. All of this happened earlier this year, and I feel like I'm reeling.

Good morning, MoreNiceCereal, I'm relieved to hear that. Yes, sometimes the only way to get through is to just concentrate on each day as it comes, and let tomorrow take care of itself. Eventually, your head and your heart will work it all out.

I'm a bit of a past master at living in the present, as a coping strategy!

Morning everyone. Just had a flashback and then a realisation. It's as if I'm seeing it through different lens this morning.
I remember a few years ago my aunt (mum's sister) came over to my parents. I was going through a tough time and had just been rehoused after being in a women's refuge. Anyway this aunt had always been lovely and I really looked up to her. She seemed so much more kinder than my mum. Anyway this particular time she came over she seemed off with me and didn't want to take much. As I was going out the door with my son my mum said dw jingle is now leaving and my aunt said ah good, go on jingle hurry up and leave. Not in a jokey way either. It hurt she was being like that but now I just had a thought of what had my mum been saying to her about me.
A few times when I had been there they had gone outside and I'm pretty sure they had spoken about me.
I know my mum was getting annoyed that I stayed at hers often when I had been in the refuge as I was allowed up to 3 nights out a week. She wouldn't let me stay with her even though she had more than enough room so I had to go to the refuge otherwise id have been homeless.
My mum also told me not to tell anyone I was there as she didn't want people knowing. Like she was ashamed! So god knows what she told my aunt.
Sorry a bit of a ramble. Just putting my thoughts down :)

That’s miserable @Jinglebells10 I would have felt pretty wretched if that was me. Do you see your aunt now?

I haven't posted for a long time but have been lurking as since my DF died my DM has lost her major emotional weapon and I've been able to distance myself from her going LC. (for full story please read my postings on earlier Stately threads.) I have resisted various attempts to bully me by evoking my DFs memory and bribe me through money. DM lives in Ireland and since DF died I have kept my trips to the bare minimum and cut the near daily phone calls to 2 a month. I still dread them, and worry for days before phoning (she's called me once maybe twice since Dad died only to have a go at me.) Last weekend I visited with DH (I never go alone to protect myself from her having a go at me) and was on egg shells the whole time. As well as her sulks she's now taken to making pa comments. (I notice my sister, to whom I was very close is becoming like her.) DM has never liked DH (we are married over 30 years) because he doesn't respond to sulks, monosyllables etc. If she says No he takes it as No. Although she was more than pleased for him to do loads of DIY for her! I survived the weekend but while there thing DM invited herself for Christmas. I know this is wrong and only on this forum will anyone understand but I don't want her here. She does behave better in my house but I still can't cope with her. Already I am worrying. We have DD1 boyfriend joining us. We love him to bits and are thrilled and flatterd that he asked could he come again this year but because of my relationship with DM I made sure that his family would not think we were hogging him. I know DM will be put out by him being there because to her Christmas is for family and family means her blood relatives (unless of course she chose them as with my BiL whom she introduced to Dsis). DM has met DD boyfriend once and has made it clear she's not impressed. Main objection seems to be he's Welsh! (she's very racist and doesn't see the irony that she was an immigrant in the UK.) My DDs both rolled their eyes when I said she wanted to come but they know what she's like and without prompting came up with shemes to keep her occupied. Lovely but why should they have to? I do not yet know if my second son and his partner will be joining us but that will be another "non family" guest to annoy DM. Plus he's gay. I also wanted to invite a friend but now can't invite because of DM. I am so dreading the holiday now. DM has this strange paralysing effect on me as I try to work out what she really wants and avoid conflict. She used to tell me I take everything too personally and maybe I do but only with her. I feel horrible that I feel this way about DM, I know I should forgive and forget now, especially at Christmas but I can't. I've accepted that unless she changes her mind DM will be coming but just need some support from those who understand what its like. Thanks and sorry for the rambling nature of this.

Hello Myduck and pollydanger
I’ve only just joined myself. It’s great to have your experiences validated by others

frami

You do not have to forgive nor forget especially at Christmas.

Your mother has not fundamentally changed since your own childhood and now your sister is becoming a carbon copy of her too.

Would you have tolerated any of this from a friend?. Most likely not and your mother is no different. She's invited her own self over to yours!.

You have a degree of physical distance but you really do need to put far more mental distance between you and your family of origin. Your boundaries certainly need further raising although you have cut down the number of calls made. Further cut these to a point of zero. No more visits as of now can be achieved and your DH should not do any more DIY for the woman. You can between you and your H also rescind her own self made invite to yours for Christmas and tell her in writing she is not at all wanted at yours nor will be welcomed. If she turns up you do not have to let her in.

You seem very much mired in FOG particularly with regards to your mother (fear, obligation and guilt); are you getting any therapy with regards to this?. This is something I would seriously consider and I would also suggest you read the Out of the FOG website too. This fear of yours is actually putting you off inviting the people you do want for Christmas because of what your mother may say or think!. You cannot live your life according to her incessant and mad demands.

You will never get the approval you perhaps still seek from her so stop trying and or otherwise tie yourself up in knots for. Ultimately I feel, your way forward is to have no contact either with her or your family of origin.

I was also appalled to hear about your mother ’rewarding’ your violent and abusive ex like that cereal😥
I think this phrase from Hero, Their behaviour is so wrong you feel frozen by it while it's happening, sums up the way that this 'technique' works, I suspect they do it by instinct rather than conscious deliberation but obviously it's an instinct that only an abusive/manipulative person would have.
I've seen this so much with my parents, something bad happens to me or my children and they are so obviously enjoying our misfortune ...so obviously experiencing schadenfreude.

Myduck hopefully your sister will find a way of dealing with things in her own time but for now you have to focus on your own well-being, it's good that you've been able to draw a firm boundaries to protect yourself from your family

Frami
I want to echo Atilla, I think you should find a way un-invite your mother

@Frami

Just wanted to say I’ve read all about how you’re accommodating everyone else this Christmas. But nothing about how they’re accommodating you. I’m so furious on your behalf I’ve got tears in my eyes.

You don’t owe this woman anything, she’s got such an effect on you that I really strongly and utterly recommend you just stop communicating at all with her.

Your Christmas sounds like it could be delightful, your family sounds lovely.

I know how hard it is, daily guilt, daily thoughts.

God, I’d ring her up for you if I could.

Frami as others have said, I hope you can tell your mum not to come, it sounds like it will be a nightmare Christmas for you and everyone else who will be there. God this thread makes me think our parents are all awful 😔

I agree it sounds as if you could potentially have a lovely Christmas Frami and you really deserve to have a lovely Christmas
Don't let this dreadful woman ruin it for you and everyone else!

@herocomplex no I don't see her or any of that side of the family anymore. There was a huge falling out when my GF died. My aunt showed her true colours and became a money grabber. My mum's family is extremely toxic so I know where I learnt behaviours come from But obviously that's no excuses as PPs say she had a choice.

@frami i wouldn't let your mum come to Christmas. I know easier said than done. Your already worrying and you still have 1 month to go. Would you be willing to go complete NC with her?

@frami was your mum the one who kept trying to get you to come over to Ireland more often by describing your dad's illness as more progressed than it was? And you had lots of work and family responsibilities that she didn't want to hear about? I'm sorry to hear about your dad but I'm glad that you've been able to go LC with your mother. I join everyone else in saying you should uninvite her. You're right, it'll be awful, and for what? It won't make her happy. They're never happy unless everyone else is miserable.

It seems to be a tunnel vision that sets in with certain personality types as they get older, they behave as if they are the only thing that matters
I feel a good remedy for this is to remember that this can be a game for two players and behave as if YOU are the only thing that matters

Thank you for the welcomes!

Just to elaborate, my mother has always been incredibly difficult. She was a very spoilt, articulate woman who had children quite young and then regretted it, and liked to remind us about this all the time in a 'aren't I brave, saying this insayable thing?' kind of way. My dad was away for work most of the time (armed forces) so it was just us and her. Mostly she ignored us as much as possible - she always seemed to be in another room or in bed, but she did her duty as she saw it, so we had sheets in the bed and food in our stomachs but it was all done with massive resentment. She would make us a drink for example but the cup would have the remnants of yesterday's tea in the bottom or lipstick around the edges. So she could say she made you a drink but it was made with the least amount of care, just in case we thought we were important.

When she had to pay attention to us behind closed doors, she was very aggressive and verbally and physically spiteful. She would fly into rages, slapping my head, kicking, pulling my hair, with guttural, low growly torrents of verbal abuse. She couldn't have cared less how much damage she was doing and the triggers for it were quite arbitrary. But outside, she was always charming and smiley. She liked to imagine that she was always the most articulate, intelligent, beautiful woman in any room. The only memories I have of her being warm are when she had an audience. As I got older, my father was around more, and he drank and she cheated, and us children were caught in the middle of constant drama. My teenage years were awful and my mental health was in tatters, which she was thrilled about as she always had to be the winner.

She remarried when I was 16 to a man she barely knew, and put huge pressure on me to leave, which is how I ended up married with two children at twenty. She was absolutely triumphant - life was tough for me and dh, and she revelled in our struggles, smirking at me when I had to reveal any issues in front her, glancing at her husband in a 'we are going to have fun, discussing this later!' way. She just loved to think that I was failing.

Most of the time I avoided her, just doing the odd duty phone call or birthday visit. She liked to know what the children were up to but we both knew that was only to a. Impress other people with their 'close relationship' and b. To give her more gossip to use against me. I didn't trust her with the children, and certainly not her husband either so I severely limited her access to them, which actually suited her fine.

She would often take umbrage at something imaginary that I'd done (the truth never got in the way of a good story) and stop speaking to me, although it probably took the wind out of her sails that I usually didn't notice until someone pointed it out to me! The last time, she didn't speak to me for a year, a year in which dh and I moved to a different part of the country and didn't leave her any contact details. She had to track me down, and weirdly decided that I was her favourite child...

So, for a few years I tried to build a bond with her. It was lovely being her favourite, even though, looking back, she was still a rubbish mother. But I had horrible anxiety whenever she was around, and I could never relax and be myself. Eventually though, the older relatives who had tried to build bridges between us over the years, passed away, and DH (who has no family of his own and she really turned on the charm with him) began to see what she was really like, just because she was present in our lives so much more.

18 months ago we had to say no to her about something fairly trivial, and she and her husband behaved abysmally. There were no confrontations or arguements (she's too posh for that nonsense) but my punishment was that she withdrew some much needed help for one of my children, alongside some horribly childish behaviour. At the same time, she said something jaw-smackingly awful to one of my brother's children. My brother was the golden child growing up and is much more malleable with her, so she has huge amounts of access to his kids (apparently she was 'giving them a childhood because someone has to...') but I can't forgive her for hurting two of her grandchildren over nothing.

So I've taken a huge step away from her and her awful husband. I've only seen them twice this year, briefly and I've reverted back to telling her as little as possible during those meetings. But I have had such rage during this time. Rage at her, at her husband, at her family who spoilt her and discouraged any backlash against her behaviour. At my father (now long dead) who left us with her, at authority figures who always believed her lies, the counsellor who I had as a drowning teen who adored my mother and told her everything I confided in therapy. And at poor DH who trusted her. And at myself, who let her back into our lives when I'd finally got away.

It's getting better and I'm working my way through all these huge feelings but it's still incredibly hard. I'm less angry and less anxious, and I tell myself everyday that I don't have to forgive her, as she's never shown any remorse. But it's becoming clearer that i am still seriously damaged by my childhood and teen years.

I'm sorry it's a long one - I've left out huge chunks to try and slimline it but I hope it's still decipherable 😁

Polly you paint such a vivid picture and reading it puts me in mind of my own parent's enjoyment of my lowly wretched journey through adulthood.
Too frickin' right you don't have to forgive her, you should stand and watch with a smile on your face as she withers and dies

@frami - If you tell your mother that XYZ people are coming whether or not she likes them maybe she will be less keen on coming?

@PollyDangerCrackers - welcome. I can totally understand why you let her back in. It is just so hard not to cling to a thread of hope that they might one day change, that they love you after all, that it was all just a huge misunderstanding.

I am horrified to read that your counsellor spoke to her. That is beyond the pale. But it is amazing how many people get taken in by narcs and think they are wonderful. My mother has very few close friends - in fact I don't know that she has any, but on a superficial level people seem to adore her company. There was a lady here locally who I met and loved and had started to hope she might be a bit of a surrogate mother to me. She was my mum's age. My mum met her and they hit it off and I lost the surrogate mum. Only because it became too dangerous for me to confide anything - and had I told her what my mum was actually like she would probably not have believed me.

I hope you can get to the point of letting go of the rage, as that only damages you. I know it is hard.

Thank you Ulterego! I feel a bit shaky seeing it all written down. There's a voice in my head saying 'Never tell! Never tell!' but I've told it to shut up, and am eating my own body weight in Tunnocks Teacakes so feeling better.

My mother certainly deserves to wither and die - she's divided her family, and pissed off all her children, and has very little relationship with her grandchildren. She thinks she's so smart but has all the foresight of a particularly stupid goldfish.

Hello Spodge. Thanks for making your way through my massive brain dump!

My mother seemed to have some magic ability to manipulate people when she was younger, so my (female) counsellor was just another easy mark for her, in her war against me. She was very pretty, and very articulate, and could cry very prettily any time she wanted. Once her main adversary, my father had left, she just turned on me, and would make sure that any adult that came into my life heard the completely made up stories of the violence, abuse, stealing, and anything else she could manufacture, just in case I tried to spill the beans about the reality of life in our home. It amazes me that no one seemed to question her narrative at all. And having access to my counsellor gave her ample opportunity to abuse me more. She liked the drama and the game playing!

Polly I’ve just read though your post. God it is awful. The mind fuckery of it all is infuriating. I was recently watching the movie about the Stanford Prison Experiment. In it you watch the characters being broken down in a day or two by the psychological and emotional abuse meted on them by the guards. 2 days and they were going stark raving nuts, when you have years of it to get through, well that paints another picture. That is why you are so angry, the years of emotional abuse with no where for it go. I have found the emotional abuse from my family so much harder to bear than the sexual abuse I suffered. It was often low level and insidious, barely recognisable sometimes but utterly devastating.

She was very pretty, and very articulate
these charismatic but superficial types can have a lot of 'fun' when they are young and lovely, as they age they lose their bloom but dont lose the desire for power and control so resort to whatever tactics will have some effect....however dirty or outrageous the means they must have what they want and they must keep you in that subordinate position.
If only I'd seen this when I was younger I'd have played the bejesus out of those fu(kers
(mind you there's still time...)

Yep, the psychological harm is so damaging. Funny you should say about the Stanford Prison Experiment myduck because I was thinking the other day that some of my mother's treatment of us is probably outlawed in prisons all around the world! For example, when I got big enough to physically escape or hold her back from attacking me, she found ways of springing a beating on me. So for instance, she took the lock off the bathroom door so she could batter me while I was in the bath or the loo, and even would even crash through the bedroom door while I was asleep and start pounding me over some perceived slight. That actually was terrible - it meant I couldn't sleep properly for weeks after, and I can still clearly remember the feeling of waking up, hearing her running on the balls of her feet, the door flying open, and the crazy attack starting. You try to explain that to a counsellor or a teacher who believes that my mother is a wonderful mother and is a victim of my 'violent behaviour'. I mean it just sounds unbelievable, doesn't it? And yet, forty years later, I'm shaking like a leaf thinking about it!