"But we took you to Stately Homes" November 2019 onwards thread

[toomuchtooold]

It's November 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
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December 2013
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May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
May-August 2019
August-October 2019
October-November 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Ulterego, can I just say how glad I am that you are around? I wasn't around much over Christmas - found it hard to face - but I was still reading the thread and you were always there, looking after the newcomers and letting them know that you listened and you understood. You gave your time to everybody. It was so important, what you were doing. I just wanted to tell you.

Thank you Singinglily 🌻 I was happy to be here because Christmas is is pretty straightforward for me, I don't have any relatives to wrangle, everyone is blocked no-one can get to me.
There is a great vibe on this thread everyone does what they can to 'pay it forward'🌞😊🌞

@Dippydog I'm so sorry to hear about your husband. You did the right thing not telling your parents.

Not only would they not have supported you, they would probably have somehow made it all about them. I hope you are coping ok.

My mother's reaction when I told her also confirmed that my feelings were right. She went from pathetic sad little voice to Exorcist growling in the space of about a minute.

I echo what @Ulterego said - you've perfectly summed it up. They really do have nothing to offer. Not to us, not to anyone.

She went from pathetic sad little voice to Exorcist growling in the space of about a minute.

Narcissistic rage, Yellowlemon. It's horrifying to witness.

I once described my mother doing exactly that and Attila straightaway identified it as narcissistic rage. Once seen, never forgotten.

Dippy I am also so sorry for your loss, this is very recent, I hope you have some people close to you in real life who are supportive at this time?
I can relate to the impulse to be very tight lipped about difficult life events, anything that you give them will be saved up and used to 'profile' you so that they can more accurately manipulate and exploit you.
I recently realised that my father had spun this into to 'Ulterego is so tough that she can cope with anything therefore I can lean on her in my old age'
(Hahaha, in your dreams mate ....in your dreams)

@Ulterego My mother thought I was going to look after her in her old age, as I'm the single daughter with no children and 'tough'.

Well I won't be and neither will my sister who lives abroad and is just as much as a narc as her.

Ooops!

Oh dear, oh dear.

Fast coming to the conclusion i cant fix this and NC is the only way!?

Was trying to carefully repair relationship with mum. Thought i would introduce new partner to her and visit her for new years. Arranged it all. Sadly, i had to cancel, but today i got some good news and could rearrange the trip, boyfriend re-booked his day off work

Mum, instead of being a) friendly, hospitable and pleased or b) saying 'oh really sorry but its too late notice immediately starts having a problem with us bringing our dogs.

If she had a phobia of dogs, i would get it. But she has a friendly dog herself, lives in the country and describes dogs as her favourite animal! The dogs in question are all well behaved, i could even leave mine at home so we are talking 2 small, well behaved dogs she wouldnt have to have anything to do with, for a matter of HOURS on NYE. We'd then be going home again as soon as she preferred NYD.

But no, thats too much and she'd rather not meet my new partner and that we visit in summer instead

She goes on and onnn about wanting a loving family relationship, and then she's this spiky, cold, dictatey presence with a sour face in the middle of it all

I am so determined not to be that mother!? My DD can bring home her partners, i will welcome them, and their dogs , anytime. I will actually PUT MYSELF OUT to find beds and food for them, to make them feel like i enjoy seeing them perhaps!?

Ugh.

Thank you so much for your concern, Ulterego, and every one else. I have good support from my children, friends and neighbours, and a couple of husbands relatives. I truly believe that working through all of the issues with my dysfunctional family has enabled me to cope with such a huge change in my life.

Singinglily, I am so sorry to hear about your husband's illness. So hard to come to terms with.

Yellowlemon, like yours, I am sure that my parents expected me to care for them in their old age. They always suggested that I would never marry or have children, because I was so defective. They were exceptionally unpleasant to my husband and never accepted him. In fact, Pukeworthy, your post about your mother's behaviour around your visit sounds so very, very familiar. I wish I had kept my parents right out of my marriage. It just wasn't worth the grief. We were told to visit and then made to feel like we were imposing. Awful!!

Isn't it amazing how utterly alike all of these parents are?

@Pukeworthy Just the sort of thing my mother would do. Just step away - it's a game you cannot win. My mother is the most awkward person to be around. Everyone has to walk on eggshells and she does nothing to make people feel comfortable or welcomed in her presence. I think she'd have people curtsey at her if she could!!

@Dippydog and yes, they are all exactly the same.

SingingLily I think you’ve hit the nail on the head, so thank you.

yellowlemon I know what you mean about the fear!

EineReise There’s definitely a silver lining; I always thought not having a relationship with them was inconceivable, but it turns out once you get through the awfulness it’s like the clouds parting and finding a clear blue sky!

Dippydog So sorry for your loss

There’s a couple of things in particular here that have resonated with me - the comment “These parents have nothing to offer” and the idea of paying it forward.

I’ve also found myself questioning who I am and how I feel about things over the last 11 months, now I’m out from under the toxic cloud. So much seemed to be coloured by trying to be a good daughter/sister and build/maintain a good relationship and it’s been a revelation to examine how ‘I’ actually feel. A close friend recently said to me that I’m so much more positive about things than I used to be!

This is such a wonderful community and thank you to everyone posting here

Thanks all - yes it is amazing how similar they are!?

Of course we had a row, and i said we needed to admit we had a bad relationship not worth pursuing. Of course, i am just my nasty, unkind lying self doing this for no justifiable reason whatsoever and she would ALWAYS LOVE ME even if i walked away. (But is happy to let me walk away because not looking at 2 extra dogs for a few hours would be more valuable to her 'mental health' than you know, actually acting like im welcome)

Sorry not to quote individual posts as my brain is a little bit addled right now, but I do so identify with those of you who have mentioned the anxiety and fear associated with contact from parent(s) and the feeling that you're going to be told off for something. Also the 'sad little croaky voice' quickly turning into rage - that's the exact reaction from my mother that would strike fear into my guts like a knife if I faced a conversation with her about wishes of mine I knew she would not like.
Some of you on here have had very obviously horrible childhoods (and are doing amazingly at dealing with the fallout from this) - I look at my own childhood and think to myself, where did it all go wrong because I always told myself I had a good childhood and good parents. My mother was affectionate, seemed to be kind and loving, praised me, encouraged my talents, had friends who always seemed pleased to see her...for so long I felt guilty for being unhappy because I had nothing to complain about. It took years to realise that a healthy mother-daughter relationship would not involve:

• her telling me that I was 'the best' but in the same breath that when I was 2 years old 'so awful that the doctors offered to take me into hospital for a break from you' (from what I've been told it was usual two year old tantrums and sibling jealousy when my younger brother was born but I was told this so many times as far back as I can remember)
• bragging to her friends about my academic achievements, art and musical talent, buying me really good art equipment because I loved drawing, but telling me in private that I did not have the personality to succeed in the fields I wanted to pursue and instead bullied me into a career I did not choose for myself
• telling me my friends weren't 'real friends' like hers were, always finding fault with them. But I always felt so guilty for complaining about her to my friends, even if they pointed out she gave me a hard time I'd feel I had to defend her and explain what a great person she was
• using me a a shoulder to cry on/therapist when her marriage to my dad was failing, telling me in detail about her terrible difficult life from childhood onwards, details of her failed relationships before my dad, how she should have married a previous boyfriend, slating my dad to me so our relationship was terrible for years, recruiting me as an ally against him, treating me more as a spouse than my father when my younger brother had his teenage rebellion by calling me in tears and demanding support every time there was a problem with him, eg if I was at a friend's and ruining my time there; but I felt that I was being super-mature and a good daughter for being supportive and she would tell her friends what a wonderful support I was and she didn't know what she'd do without me
• while I was at university, expecting me to go on holiday with her and pay for it (but invariably having a big row on holiday because I didn't chat with her like she wanted, which turned into a big attack on my personality 'why can't you chat? Aren't I worth it? You're just like your father etc etc'), expecting me to phone her every day and guilt tripping me if I didn't get around to it, repeatedly calling until I called back, expecting me to go home every weekend
• demanding to know everything about what was going on in my life, no recognition of my separateness from her, any withholding of information on my part met with wheedling and bullying until I caved in and told her
• flying into a terrible rage if I accidentally broke a nice teacup or ornament (not just normal shouting but this sort of awful moan-yell as if the end of the world is happening that is quite difficult to explain to anyone who hasn't experienced it)
• grabbing me by the shoulders and shaking me and screaming in my face when I was off school sick at the end of summer term when I was 10, because my dad had been in to collect my stuff from my locker and it was a total mess and had taken him ages to clear out and there were some bits of work in my exercise books that were unfinished or not up to usual standard (I've always been quite disorganised :-/)
• asking me if I had 'gone off the boil' when I stopped getting straight As at school (because I was miserable and she had forced me into doing subjects I didn't want to do) as though I was a performing monkey she couldn't brag about so much any more

This is before I had my DD and things got a lot worse. It's only looking back on my childhood as an adult that I've realised things back then really weren't ok, even though she could be affectionate and loving a lot of the time. It makes the whole thing very confusing because she wasn't cold and obviously abusive, in fact she presents as being very caring.

YesSheCan I’ve read your other threads and you’re one of the posters whose story has really inspired/influenced me. I think that’s what makes it so hard to identify as abusive and/or wrong behaviour - lots of tiny things, in themselves innocuous. Some of the things I’ve told my dh and the counsellor, it’s taken the look of horror and shock to really show me how abnormal they are.

I used to joke with my sister that you never quite knew which mother you were going to get when you rang or visited. Took me a long time to realise she knew exactly what she was doing and she could change her behaviour at the drop of a hat.

Yep @YesSheCan

Always running my friends down at every chance

For a while I thought it was about control but it was really disguised nastiness towards me.

Say for example she would say :

Alana/Rach/Chloe are "only in it for the gifts" this would appear to mean that these people were just using me for the things I bought their children

This would appear to say that they are grabby and materialistic

BUT

What she is really saying, whether or not it is subconscious or not is

"They only want your friendship because you are buying it because REALLY WHO WOULD CHOOSE TO BE FRIENDS WITH YOU?"

Because my DM would shower me with apparent love whilst negging others it took me ages to see that she was so OTT with love because it was "fake it til you make it"

Also she is very gullible and influenced by others opinions so if toxic sibling A said it she'd run with it without thinking it through.

Oddly enough, the friend that did turn out to be a massive user was the one she always spoke positively of

It really messes with your head.

SingingLily I completely missed that your husband is also ill - so sorry.

Pukeworthy My mother moves the goalposts so often it’s a wonder there aren’t grooves in the ground. She should have been a lawyer or a politician; she’s so good at manipulating and twisting what you say, I have in the past found myself doing a 180-degree turn without actually intending to.

Yesshecan - i KNOW that end-of-the-world eye rolling type behaviour! Like, if i visit i am genuinely, at the age of 33, afraid to use appliances etc because if ANYTHING goes wrong...oh my days. You never hear the end of it. If i eat food, its always 'i needed that'. I took to actually taking shopping with me to ensure i could eat, and that got a disappointed 'oh...' type of reaction, i think twin upset that she isnt in fact the lovely hospitable person she says she is and also having nothing to beat me over the head with...

And i had the career thing too.

dippydog so sorry for your loss. You did the right thing. My older brother who is also NC with our mum was critically ill earlier this year and while he was unconscious, SIL was quite firm no one was to contact her. Indeed when he came round he confirmed he would not have wanted her there. It's about the sick person and what's best for them, not someone turning up creating drama and stress and making it all about them

Oh dear, someone tell me how to do bold text!
PenelopeCleary I'm so glad you've found my threads helpful. I came on MN in a state of crisis needing to offload and needing advice. I got some excellent advice and lots of support from people on here and it's good to know that reading about my situation might help others. Yes, I had the same experience with a therapist; it was only really having therapy that allowed me to process how dysfunctional my relationship with my mother has been and how it was ok to admit this.

Pukeworthy, oh yes, the anxiety of not doing something the right way! But my mother is the opposite with food. Makes very nice food, insisted on doing all the cooking when she lived with us, takes food round to people to be helpful. I think it's a need to be needed.

EineReise, gosh I hadn't thought about it like that, I just assumed my mum thought everyone should be more like her and her friends. I would get 'your friends don't put themselves out for you, they're not real friends, they're fairweather friends'. I guess that reflects on her only liking people when they put up with her shit and cutting them off when they impose boundaries.

Hi Yesshecan

Bold: hello gives hello so hello

Re your comment to Pukeworthy with the food, I also think such disordered people do this so they can act all martyrish and go on about them being a "good person" at the same time. Its all really about them.

EineReise to my mind also has a narcissist for a mother too. Also her comment re her mother being somewhat gullible is correct too (my MIL is the same). They are so out of touch with other people and what goes on around them that they are very susceptible to exploitation. On the other hand, they're so inattentive, and so disconnected from what other people are up to, that they don't recognize when someone is taking advantage of them

Reading about your experiences with your mother is a good descriptor of how she, a narcissistic mother, acts towards her now adult child.

Yes my mum has to CONTROL the food. If she cooks and serves it to you, you can eat it and be grateful. If you're peckish and help yourself, even get yourself cereal because you're up 4hrs earlier than her, then its an issue.

I kinda feel people's adult children should be able to prepare themselves breakfast without anxiety in their parents houses, am i wrong???

You need to put the * symbol surrounding the word you want to make bold

@AttilaTheMeerkat Oh the gullibility. I always thought it was because my mother was a bit dim. But now you've said that I wonder if she gets taken in by things because she feels flattered and important. Those dodgy timeshares that she used to 'win' back in the day being one example.

I've always thought that one day she'll have her bank account cleared out by a scammer.

I remember not long after my father died despite me offering to help with her finances she found some 'nice man from the church' instead who I know is charging her an absolute fortune every month for having a quarterly meeting with her.

@Pukeworthy I am a big breakfast eater (usually my favourite meal of the day) but when I went to visit my mother I would skip it altogether and starve till lunchtime rather than have to go through the bloody palaver that you had to go through just to make a cup of coffee, toast some bread, or fry an egg.

I am so relieved I will never, ever have to go through trying to make myself some food again while she interferes, whines, moans, criticises or sulks. Or eat her disgusting food that she forces on everyone.

not just normal shouting but this sort of awful moan-yell as if the end of the world is happening that is quite difficult to explain to anyone who hasn't experienced it

Oh yes, I know this only too well! With my DM it was a hysterical shriek, totally out of proportion to what was actually going on and if you'd have been listening in you'd have assumed someone had just died or something. Ive always called it them banshee shriek, because thats what it sounds like.

I remember one time my trainers were covered in mud, and she'd taken it upon herself to clean them for me (I hadn't asked her to do this BTW). I went to put them on some time later and they were still damp, I said something like 'oh no they are still damp' or something similar and she literally exploded screeching that she'd cleaned them 'out of the goodness of my heart'. It was so absurd I just stood there thinking WTF is she on about. Total over reaction on her part.

I can only assume that I'd accidentally bruised her oh so fragile ego. I'd love to talk to DB about this actually, as I remember him being on the receiving end of 'the shriek' more than me. But I don't think he's quite at the stage I am yet in seeing her for what she is. He's made comments that make me think he see's some of it, but when I broached it with him he'd jumped to her defence.

Atila

I don't know if my mother is a full narc but I know that a point came when I realised I was more the parent in the dynamic. Additionally, I outgrew her conversationally and find every conversation tilted in a way of her very much being "Whatever you have to say, I will feign interest in until I can either take over or cut you off completely to repeat lengthy conversations I've had word for word"

Someone on here mentioned a book I keep meaning to read called "Growing Up With Emotionally Immature Parents" which sums up my parents in one phrase.

For me, Sibling A ticks every NPD box, B has pooh poohed this BUT has had extremely limited exposure to A in the last decade and so wouldn't necessarily see it.

I sometimes feel like our extended family look at us like "What The Fuck Happened With These 3?!"

We were always held up as The Example

None of us have had successful personal relationships as adults because we never learned how. And the way we behave in relationships though different directly correlates to the dysfunction we lived through.

Sibling A : Need me, need me, love me, but don't expect anything in return

Sibling B : You've got too close. Love frightens me. I'm scared of being trapped. Goodbye.

Me : I love you and will give you whatever you want, but I will never believe you really love me and will always feel insecure.