"But we took you to Stately Homes" November 2019 onwards thread

[toomuchtooold]

It's November 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
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October-November 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Now the dc adore her and have done nothing but ask me when they can see her again since she stopped talking to me a week ago
you do know that she has deliberately engineered this, she makes pets of the children on purpose so as to keep open a channel via which to attack you.
She sticks the knife in and then she twists it.

Picture the scene; they would implode
Yeah, but they so had it coming Marmaduke...

@justfeelingsad I don't think you were being silly not stopping for lunch. I think you knew deep down that there was a significant chance of your father going off the deep end if you asked to stop.

I feel angry with myself because when i had dc 1 i hadn't spoken to dm in years. I let her back into our lives when dc 1 was 6 months because i wanted the dc to have a grandmother.

Try not to be angry with yourself, Marshmallow. You put your own feelings to one side in the hope that your children might benefit from having a loving grandmother in their lives. That's what any reasonable person would do. Sadly, your mother has not returned the favour. She is far from being a reasonable person - that's why you went NC with her in the first place.

Ulterego is right. Your mother has exploited the situation by making pets of your children. Why wouldn't she? They are useful tools she can use to control you. That is exactly the behaviour she was demonstrating when she took photos herself putting your children's presents in the bin. What kind of person does that? What cruelty will she inflict on them next in order to keep you in line?

They might adore her now - kids do - but the amount of affection they feel for her now will be directly proportionate to the depth of bewildered pain and hurt they will feel when she dumps on them. As she will. She does not care about them. She would not have done what she did if she cared about them. They are useful to her, that's all. Don't make your children find that out the hard way.

Sorry to jump in mid conversation. Ive dipped in and out of this thread for a while now, and only today realised that my mother is a narc. We have no emotional bond, she always liked it when we "behaved" (and made her look good) and still shames me 25 years on for behaviour in my teens that was completely normal. She's started helping out with the baby but it's turned into a weekly jaunt for her where she does very little helping, even takes naps (!) but makes sure to tell everyone how much she helps out! Cue the praise etc. I feel so ungrateful but i know it's not normal. She competes with me about how tired i am (no sympathy there), and it's such hard work. Any challenge from me is taken ever so personally. Eg i was finishing off some christmas pudding and she grabbed my hips and shook so my arse and tummy wobbled. I got upset saying i had a baby 12 weeks ago and it's Christmas so please don't, and instead of apologising, made it about her! It's driving me crazy. I have always been scared to tell her anything for fear that she'll use it against me later on, or that she'll just not even try to understand or listen. I'm tying to reverse this with my own dd, taking the time to listen to her and make her feel heard and to trust me. Im terrified of continuing this pattern.

I also came intensely shy and anxious in public as she would always make a scene and take pleasure in embarrassing me. To the point that i would go deeply crimson at the thought/fear of blushing.. ive only just gotten over that.

I've started to be totally honest recently, not play into her version of me and it's so empowering. Not being nasty to her or anything, just answering honestly without fear of her shaming me or making a bad joke about it. I want my dd to know she can be herself and not have to be a Good Girl just for my benefit.

Rainbow

You won't continue this toxic pattern with your own daughter because unlike your mother, you are not a narcissist. You also have two qualities that your mother lacks entirely; empathy and insight. You would not treat your daughter like this.

It is not your fault your mother is like this and you did not make her that way. You need to lower all contact levels with her to a point of zero and this is behaviour from her you would not tolerate from a friend, your mother is no different. It is not possible to have a relationship with someone like this and I would keep her also away from your child as of now. She will merely go onto use your child and harm her not too dissimilarly to how you have yourself been harmed otherwise. Your mother has not fundamentally changed since your childhood. Many adult children of narcissists do fall into the trap of at all allowing their parent to establish a relationship with their child. Unfortunately toxic parents more often than not become toxic as grandparents too. Your mother does not care about you and she does not care about your child either; you are there to be used as tools and otherwise mistreated as she sees fit. BTW you do not mention your dad here; where is he?.

What are your boundaries like with regards to your mother, they seem very low which is not altogether surprising really since she has trained you since early childhood to serve her at your overall expense. A boundary you can enforce here is stopping her weekly naps aka childcare in your home.

Do read the websites entitled Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers and the Out of the Fog website. Consider also finding a therapist and one at that who has NO familial bias. Interview such people carefully and at length before committing to any one person.

atilla thank you so much for this. It feels like such a weight has been lifted to have my feelings heard. You asked about my df. He worked away in the week (so was fun weekend dad) for most of my childhood, so dm was the sole authority in the house then, and it never really rebalanced when we moved and were altogether again all the time. My df and i have a close relationship now, and i can see that it bothers dm. Its because he listens to me and we can hang out and relax together. He can be difficult too, overly technical and would 'rather be right than kind', but he knows my dm is difficult, stubborn and can say unkind things. Like when i came home from hospital after a difficult birth with dc1 she asked if i had another one in there, referring to my big post birth tummy. I reminded her of it a while later and of course she doesnt remember saying it.

I just can't imagine going lc or nc. My dd loves her and i think she really does love both my kids. Is there any way i can improve this? Is my growing honesty and pride in myself going to make things more and more difficult? Maybe if i get past the baby phase she'll lose interest as they're not so cute and cuddly, and we can get on with things. We don't live in the same city so we could at least reduce contact. I'd miss my dad though.

Im so sorry, I am putting paragraphs in but they're not coming up!

Morning, RainbowSlide, your paragraphs are coming up just fine!

My dd loves her and i think she really does love both my kids. Is there any way i can improve this?

If I am reading this right, your children are very young. When they are a little older - old enough to have likes and dislikes, and start expressing opinions - your mother will start treating them the way she treated you when you were a child. And the way she still tries to treat you now.

She will train your children to seek her approval by being good, according to her definition of good. Note that it will be all about making sure they seek her approval, not yours, because your love for them is unconditional. This means she will start to use your children as a weapon against you.

I'm sorry to say this. It's hard to hear. You might even not believe me. But if you have been following this thread for some time (and welcome, by the way), you will not see a single instance where a narcissistic grandmother has fostered a healthy relationship with her grandchildren much past toddler stage.

Mothers like yours and mine do not know what a healthy and loving relationship looks like and have no interest in forming one.

Thanks singinglily yes my kids are little. My neice and nephew are coming to the end of primary school and dm has sort of lost interest in them which is sad. She doesn't seem to want to get to know who they are. I know this sounds so awful but my mum is quite old and i imagine wont be around much longer, so not sure of the real impact she's likely to have on my dcs as they grow up but i guess we'll have to see.

Im so sad not to have a close bond with my mum like other people have. I would never go to her if i needed a shoulder to cry on, it would always be df or db (or dh obviously). So interesting how it all makes sense

She doesn't seem to want to get to know who they are.

She never really did, Rainbow. I'm sorry to say that.

When your niece and nephew were very young, they would have held her in wonder and awe. She would have made sure of that because that's the appropriate level of attention she wanted from them. Now they have minds of their own and this is not allowed in your mother's world. It will be the same for your children.

Just like you, the one I ran to as a child, when I was upset or hurt, was my Dad. No point running to my mother as she doesn't do hugs. I'd hug her but I might as well have hugged the ironing board.

I'm with Attila here. Put distance between your mother and your children. They are the ones you need to protect.

Your mother may well get worse as she gets older, you know. Mine has. They grow old but they never grow up. My mother still behaves like a spoilt child.

rainbow,

re your comment:-
"I just can't imagine going lc or nc. My dd loves her and i think she really does love both my kids".

You cannot imagine it yet due to you also being in FOG but start to do so!. You cannot continue as you have been doing with your mother, its not working and you're being denigrated by her in your own home.

No she does not love your kids. She sees your DD and your other child as a good source of narcissistic supply and a way also to get back at you as her mother. The harm being done to your kids will be done right in front of your very eyes. Your mother made the terrible choice long ago not to love. The absolute worse thing you can do for your kids here is to continue to allow them to have any sort of a relationship with their narcissistic grandparent. They are deplorably bad at being grandparents and there is no interaction between they and the grandchild at all. Its like watching a re-run of a tv show you've always hated.
Mark my words here and please also take in what SingingLily has written. Also read the recent posts by Iwantamarshmallowman because her posts are a stark warning too.

If you at all maintain any sort of a relationship with your mother, your DD and other child will be harmed by it. She is not much of a grandmother to your DD now, she is not really engaging with her is she but using your place to nap in. That is not childcare in anyone's book.

"Is there any way i can improve this?"

No

"Is my growing honesty and pride in myself going to make things more and more difficult?"

Yes because your mother will not like the fact that you are trying to impose boundaries on her. Narcissists deplore boundaries and actively rail against same.

"Maybe if i get past the baby phase she'll lose interest as they're not so cute and cuddly, and we can get on with things"

Do not let it get that far.

"We don't live in the same city so we could at least reduce contact. I'd miss my dad though".

You can certainly reduce contact. As for your dad well sadly he is really her secondary abuser and enabler here. His way of dealing with her was to work away from home during the week. Women like your mother cannot do relationships so the men in their lives are either discarded or are actually as narcissistic as they are. He has also failed you as a parent here by failing to protect you from the excesses of his wife's behaviours. I would think that in a straight fight between his wife and you, he would choose his wife and tell you something along the lines of, "don't make me apologise for the wife I have chosen".

My MIL is a narcissist and also behaves like a spoilt child, her emotional development here really stopped at around the age of six. She is really a six year old in an adult body.

She is more than adept at making things all about her; its always worse for her and she keeps going on about her blooming leg. The fact that she has had it dressed for years now at great cost to the NHS does not compute with her. And she is tight in the extreme as well as being crap as a gift giver; this is because she does not know anyone at all. Hell, this year my DH gave her a list of what we would like because she has NO idea at all of anything outside her own self with her at the centre of her own universe.

Ok I'm listening to all of this, thank you so much. Need to really have a good think and get a therapist.

On the gifts - my dm is a notoriously shite gift giver. No thought or effort, just something random. This year a patterned bowl. Nice, but could have been from anyone.

Oh and she has these false narratives about me and my life choices. I did a psychology degree to "work her father out" (what?!), and I only travel so much to be like her and my dad, and "having kids will put a stop to that (nasty smirk)".. why would a mother say all this? Sorry im hogging the thread. It's like a flood.

Narcissists are really crap at gift giving. First, narcissists lack empathy, so they don't know what you want or like and, evidently, they don't care either; second, they think their opinions are better and more important than anyone else's, so they'll give you what they think you ought to want, regardless of what you may have said when asked what you wanted for your birthday; third, they're stingy and will give as gifts stuff that's just lying around their house, such as possessions that they no longer have any use for, or in really choice instances return to you something that was yours in the first place. In fact, as a practical matter, the surest way NOT to get what you want from a narcissist is to ask for it; your chances are better if you just keep quiet, because every now and then the narcissist will hit on the right thing by random accident. (Have tried this method myself and it did work with regards to MIL).

My narcissistic MIL is of a similar bent and one year presented me with a present still wrapped in its packaging from Amazon. Its what I call a no thought present. She does not know me at all even after all these years of me being married to her son.

@rainbowslide for me this was definitely the way things panned out, they were great when the kids were very young and there were pretty much no issues in terms of their treatment of the kids. Once my dd reached senior school age they 'started' with her as she was developing her own sense of fashion etc. It was derogatory comments about what she was wearing (ripped jeans - shocking!) and arbitrary rules, made for absolutely no reason other than to control. When your kids are little and malleable, they just accept whatever they are told. This changes as they get older and develop their own likes, dislikes, independence - and with narcs this is 'not allowed' so the wheels come off. My kids haven't seen their grandparents since August ( after they accused the kids of lying about something they said and demanded an apology from my husband for calling them out in it) and, tellingly, the kids have not missed them and don't want to see them. I'd say cut your losses now, you are actually doing the children a favour. I actually regret letting my kids be around them and then having to witness the inevitable breakdown of that wing of the family. Sorry you are finding yourself in this position xx

They might adore her now - kids do - but the amount of affection they feel for her now will be directly proportionate to the depth of bewildered pain and hurt they will feel when she dumps on them
I agree with this... it's about the intensity of the emotion, whether it's pleasure or pain, good or bad emotion it can still be used to control you. Keeping you in a state of emotional arousal, swinging between highs and lows, this allows them to control you and keep you off balance.

Rainbowslide. Everything you say sounds so very, very familiar. And everyones' advice sounds absolutely spot on.

My three children are in their twenties, and we have good relationships, but the thing they are most unhappy about, regarding their childhoods, is that I tried to foster a relationship between them and my parents. Mother is a covert, very controlling narcissist, and father, her total enabler. Yes, they seemed to love their GC when they were babies, and possibly toddlers. They were still very critical of them, and the way DH and I parented. I always felt like I was defending myself, DH, and DC to them. It was like we were never good enough!

DS1 was rejected totally aged ten, because his asperger's meant that he wasn't able to to go along with the family rules that Granny is the most amazingly, fantastic woman that has ever walked this earth! DS24 is still absolutely terrified of my enabler D to this day.

Interest in the other two children waned over the years. They grew up and saw my parents for what they are. Parents have no interest in their grandsons, but enD phones me occasionally to ask ME if he can be in contact with DD26 who lives away with her boyfriend. He suddenly went deaf when I mentioned her living arrangements. My parents don't believe in living together before marriage. DD thinks it would be very stressful to have any contact again. I agree.

Sorry for the ramble. It all came pouring out. The message is that I tried to let my very damaging parents have a relationship with my children. It's one of the few things my DC resent me for, and I am very sorry for it. I have apologised many a time. My DC suffered and were damaged, to a degree. We have all been NC for 8+years, other than an occasional pleading phone call from enD. Suspect M doesn't even know about this.
I wish I had gone NC when I married, and protected my DC from these damaged and damaging people!!

Thank you for listening.

Rainbow if my mother grabbed me by the hips and shook me😲😳 .....I think I might punch her in the face
Who does she think she is? Wtf?
This woman is totally taking the piss, you need to turn the tables on her, put her in her place. If you stand your ground with her she will crumble to dust.

Thank you all so much for the support. I can't help but wonder whether there is any context in which the stuff I've mentioned could be seen as normal? I just feel like ive cherry picked the stuff i remember and that's stayed with me (because it hurt). Could i be overreacting? It's so hard to get a balanced perspective.

Rainbow

re your comments in quote marks:-
"I can't help but wonder whether there is any context in which the stuff I've mentioned could be seen as normal?"

No. None of what you have written about re your mother could be described as anything like normal. What you wrote is the "norm" for practically all adult children of a narcissistic parent/s and their associated enabler.

" I just feel like ive cherry picked the stuff i remember and that's stayed with me (because it hurt). Could i be overreacting? It's so hard to get a balanced perspective."

You have not cherry picked at all. Its hard to get a balanced perspective because at the hands of your parents, you've never had one and you've never been encouraged to have boundaries. Your mother in particular has tried to make you an extension of her and your dad has also been complicit here. And no you are not overreacting (that's a common initial reaction too), what makes you think this at all?. Other family?. Friends who do have "normal" emotionally healthy parents?. Your own fear, obligation and guilt?.

What if anything else do you know about your mother's childhood?. That often gives clues. Again it is NOT your fault your mother is like this and you did not make her that way.

Rainbow, I think the being scared to tell her anything, well this is very telling, this is your gut instinct, your inner self knows that she is not on your side but you try and rationalize it because it's too painful and confusing.
I have always had these instincts with my parents, to leave home the minute I was able to and never look back.
He suddenly went deaf when I mentioned her living arrangements
sounds like a familiar manoeuvre Dippy, anything they don't like or approve of they just pretend it doesn't exist.... That's why I now pretend that mine don't exist 🤣😁😅

Atilla she had a sad upbringing, her mother died before she was 2 and she didn't have a consistent parent, just going between lots of aunts until she left home at 15. So part of me feels bad that she didn't have a blueprint for being a mum. It's sad, as if generations of mothering were cancelled with the death of her mum.

I did not think your mother's upbringing was great and I am not surprised. However, all she has really done regarding you is to repeat the same old that was foistered upon her. That is therefore on her, she made a choice to repeat the same old. Many people also, you being one of them, had a crap childhood and you would not treat your children in the ways your mother has and continues to treat you.

So part of me feels bad that she didn't have a blueprint for being a mum.

And neither did you, Rainbow, yet you try very hard to listen to your children and make them feel as though they don't have to jump through hoops like performing seals in order to win your approval and earn your love.

My mother stored up rage about her crappy childhood and took it out on me when I was a defenceless child. She took it out on my DSis from the moment of conception. She made our childhoods every bit as crappy as hers was. That was her choice. She could have chosen to put her rage to one side and be a good mother - like you did, like my DSis did - but she took the low road and made us suffer for something that was never our fault.

Your mother made the same choice. She put herself first. She will always put herself first.

Don't feel sorry for her.