"But we took you to Stately Homes" November 2019 onwards thread

[toomuchtooold]

It's November 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
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August 2013
December 2013
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May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
May-August 2019
August-October 2019
October-November 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Hi Guys

I'm feeling really down today. My dm had an episode just before Christmas, Dm likes to create conflict around Christmas so she can sit at home and weep about how lonely she is and what wicked daughters she has.
This is nothing new but I'm really struggeling with what she has done over my childrens presents. Dm insisted on buying dcs everything they put on the santa list this year which left me struggeling to look for gifts. I also let her have something i had brought for dh becuase she was making a fuss about not having anything. This gifts i got them were lovely but not the special gifts they asked for.
Dm spent all day xmas day texting me to tell me what she was dumping all our presents in the bin she even sent me pictures. She called me an abusive mother and threatened to call the police she said she can't wait for my dc to turn on me like i have turned on her.
I feel like such a failure my dcs while happy with the presents they got (because they are amazing little people) didnt get any of the special things they asked santa for. Today i just happed to see a pair of smaller things being given away on a facebook free site but im still going to have to replace dc 1 big gift becuase i promised and it wont be the same as getting it from santa.
I'm just so angry and don't know how my dm can justify all this in her head. She is so so abusive but really does believe thats its all me shes so convinced that i am the problem that shes half convinced me.. i feel like im going mad. I know the only way to stop this is to walk away but i just wish i could make her stop all this nonsense and be a normal careing mother.
Im sorry i hope im not making a nuisance of myself on this thread i just feel so low.

Marshmallow no you are absolutely not a nuisance, we've all been where you've been, it is so bloody hard. You're having to fight the natural urge that we all have to be close to our family, and at the same time every time she is horrible to you, all the guilt and blame she programmed into you in your childhood is coming to the fore. I'm so sorry that she has interfered with your Christmas this way but one thing she cannot take off any of you is that you have given your children something your mother could never manage - a happy Christmas.

Steve I always think if folk are talking about me they must have awfully boring lives because I'm as sure as shit not talking about them . Stay strong man. Because you are strong. You have to be, to have come through all of this. Fuck the new year and self improvement off for now, it'll come when you're ready.

Sorry for all of you whose Christmases have been tainted by abusive relatives. Since I found out younger brother had told mother where DD and I are living now, I've spoken with DF and family friend who tell me my mother has been ranting to them about how I still owe her money and she will get her solicitor on to me, and how could I keep it from her that we were back in the area etc etc. Today I received a stream of texts from mother asking me to call her, saying she loves us so much and thinks about me every day, trying to rope me back in by sending photos of her new kittens as I love cats and moreover, she knows if I showed DD, DD would love them. I ignored and deleted all messages and didn't tell DD. Then had further message asking if I had got previous messages, missed call and voicemail from her. Was too anxious to listen to voicemail for a while but eventually summoned courage to find out if she knew my address. No mention that she does, just her saying she wants to see us and hopes I am ok and loves me, all in a scared tearful victim voice I am very familiar with. Good job I know she has been saying very different things about me to family and friends otherwise I might have felt guilty and believed that she was being genuine. Thing is, as a child we were so close and I thought I was loved, and loved her and thought she was wonderful. I can see now that this was only because I was a compliant child who rewarded her with achieving well, wbich reflected well on her, and went along with her way of doing things. It's only since becoming an adult and trying to live my own life (lots of failed attempts through my 20s and 30s as I always gave in to her manipulation) that I've realised our relationship is totally unhealthy. I do feel sad that I may never be able to resume contact with her as she will never accept that there are problems with her behaviour and treatment of people, so will not change. But I have to remind myself that this is not my fault.

Steve have you tried asking your GP for propanolol, or getting promethazine/phenergan over the counter or at a pinch any drowsy antihistamines? They aren’t brilliant but take the edge of feelings of utter terror and allow you to get through things and even sleep a bit sometimes.
It seems like so many posts are from people who aren’t getting validation from the people around them - please remember that your point of view is equally as valid as theirs if not more so! It really helps if you can get some kind of third party involved but if not, either write it down or just try to remember it as it happened. It can be so difficult to hold on to what you know happened and is the real state of affairs, but remember you can’t trust this person to tell the truth or to treat you nicely so why would you trust their perception of reality?
I’ve had a bad day as well, was working from my other parent’s home with the keys accidentally in the door and parent turned up, tried the door and then called on the phone and I was in the bath and couldn’t decide what to do - when I worked out what had happened I put some stuff in a bag and headed to London where I actually live, but apparently she’s caused a massive fuss with my relatives. I feel bad that I was shaking with fear and my heart was beating so quickly and out of control because she’s just a person who I’m sure loves me, and the good things she has done keep coming back to me, but at the same time I’m not stupid and was sweating and awake at 4AM afraid I could hear her keys in the door and it isn’t for no reason.
You are all so strong and I’m so glad to have stumbled on this thread. Keep going. These people present such a strong headwind that even if you are staying still and can’t take so much as a pigeon step, you are resisting them and standing tall, and that is something to be proud of.

Oh yes the tearful victim voice 🙄 luckily we can see through all that acting and shit
I'm sorry she's such a thorn in your side Yesshe ☹️
These leopards do not change their spots, the best we can do is remove ourselves from their orbits, put them out of our minds and perhaps one day we will hear that they passed away peacefully in their sleep 🙏

What ugly batshit cray cray behaviour from your mother Marshmallow I know you don't feel able to, but this is totally grounds to cut her out of your life forever, you know it's the only way to find peace and you deserve peace

Cecile, being ambushed like that is very traumatic, how are you now?

Was too anxious to listen to voicemail for a while but eventually summoned courage to find out if she knew my address. No mention that she does, just her saying she wants to see us and hopes I am ok and loves me, all in a scared tearful victim voice I am very familiar with.

Good morning, YesSheCan, time to block her now. You've made the decision to go NC. You didn't make that decision lightly. Her behaviour towards you has been dreadful. However, you are jumping every time you get a text in case it's from her and you are too anxious to listen to your own voicemails. If you don't block her, your own phone will haunt you and you really don't need that.

Please, block her now. Do it today. 💐

Marshmallow, I just want to echo what Toomuch said - please don't ever apologise for offloading on this thread. We all do it. That's what it's here for.

Your mother's behaviour is appalling. First, she filches from you the pleasure of getting things on your children's Santa list, and then she not only bins them but takes photos and sends them to you. In fact, that's beyond appalling. It's downright cruel. She is using your children's hurt feelings as weapons against you. What kind of mother and grandmother does that?

I know the only way to stop this is to walk away but i just wish i could make her stop all this nonsense and be a normal careing mother.

I am so so sorry but this isn't going to happen. As another wise poster said on here earlier, as long as you think you can influence their behaviour, they will continue to control your life. Please think about that for a minute.

You didn't cause your mother to be the way she is. You cannot change her. Being a good daughter doesn't work. You could turn yourself inside-out trying to be the perfect daughter and it won't make a blind bit of difference. All you can do is change the way you respond, and the best way to do that is to put some distance between you and her - and perhaps even more importantly, given her behaviour over Christmas - to put a very wide distance between her and your children.

Please stop sharing information with her. She only uses it to twist things against you. Why did she need to know what was on the children's Santa list? Why did you need to give her something you had bought for your DH? She works on your fear, obligation and guilt. Stop being Helpful Daughter. She is using you to hurt your own husband and children.

You would be fully justified going NC with her. If you are not ready - and I understand why that's a struggle - then at least use the grey rock technique and stop giving her personal and family information that she can use as a weapon to hurt you and your family. Also look at this website which has lots of practical tips on how to create a safe distance.

outofthefog.website/

It's hard, trying to stand your ground against your abusive mother. But it's reached the point where she has really left you with no choice because she is now unleashing her cruel ways on your own children. That's a line that you cannot allow her to cross. Ever. Please be strong for your children's sake and put a stop to it now. 💐

Thank you Ulterego, I’m fine this time, but won’t be sticking around in this house, I’m off back to London. To be fair to her I think she was just intending to come to the house for other reasons rather than to ambush me but she’s got a lot of victim mileage out of supposedly not being allowed to come here or see the cat I was looking after. I should have gone to the office for the day really.
Reading this thread has definitely explained a lot of things I was beating myself up about, like the dread of having to see or speak to certain family members which stopped me doing things effectively for days at a time, and leaving my emails and texts unread and unanswered because I didn’t know how to deal with them from her.
Incidentally that presents thing was absolutely inhumane, Marshmallow. It’s heartbreaking to have to realise and accept that you don’t have the loving and caring parent you deserve, but as soon as she starts getting at your children it’s no longer just about you suffering. I’m really sorry. It’s a hard thing to do and for as long as it’s just you being hurt it can feel like a bad thing to do but there are other people involved now who can’t make that choice on their own behalf.

Yesterday I spent the morning with my DF who I suspect may be narcissistic. However, he was completely fine yesterday. It was a straightforward easy morning, we just popped into the city centre together to purchase my DM's birthday presents. There is nothing I can think of that happened that was "narcissistic". Does that mean he may not be narcissistic or that it can sometimes be mild and not present itself in certain situations?

The only aspect of it that was hard is he hates shopping and rushes around going shop-to-shop so afterwards I was tired and starving as I hadn't eaten or drunk anything yet. Whereas if I was with anyone else we would have stopped for a coffee and some breakfast or lunch. It is not a big deal but I notice it happens everytime when I am out with my DF. I just ignore and suppress the fact I have a headache from dehydration or am hungry. I think it stems from when I was little when if we were out as a family if us children were hungry he would get angry at us and when we finally got something to eat hours later we would have to makedo with having a bag of crisps from the petrol station as our belated lunch.

Yesterday I spent the morning with my DF who I suspect may be narcissistic. However, he was completely fine yesterday. It was a straightforward easy morning, we just popped into the city centre together to purchase my DM's birthday presents. There is nothing I can think of that happened that was "narcissistic". Does that mean he may not be narcissistic or that it can sometimes be mild and not present itself in certain situations?

.Narcs are always planning at least three steps ahead, and from your post I'm surmising he'll attempt to weaponise your children and use them against you. I've seen it far too many times.

Sorry I missed that you were shopping for DM. She is enabling his behaviour and likely knows the full extent of his narcissistic behaviour.

I agree with Singinglily BLOCKING is the way to go, for quite some time I felt I ought to monitor the communications with that I received, but this means you are paying way too much attention to the person, giving them too much power and each time you receive a communication it causes you stress.
Since I blocked I feel as if they have receded from my life, it's much better😊

justfeelingsad I no longer go shopping with my DM for this reason, she only wants to look in shops and at things that she is interested in and will huff, puff, sigh, say that she doesn’t feel well, that her legs are hurting, that she’s tired, walk very slowly to hold me up and generally sulk in order to get her own way. Fuck that!

Everything has to be on her terms, always. The more and more I read this thread the more I realise how manipulative she can be. And yet like your DF she can be nice and kind, but only on her terms.

Yes it's always on their terms, it's their way or no way, the proper response to this is 'no it's my way or no way so fuck off' 🤣
Seriously, don't obey them copy them, whatever they do, do it back to them ...and then some some😊

@SimplySteveRedux sorry you are struggling - it must be so hard. Keep taking those baby steps and you will make progress. Christmas is a very difficult time of year - and you've got a birthday thrown in the mix too.

@Iwantamarshmallowman - I'm so sorry your mother behaved in that way. It's so easy to look at it in hindsight and think "why didn't I anticipate this" - but the reality is you so want a good relationship that you allow these things to happen, and then have to grieve again when she disappoints.

Don't worry about the kids - if you can afford to give them some of the things on their lists then great - but if not, they truly won't really remember it in years to come.

My mother is the same, she likes to sow discord and resentment in the build up to holidays. It's so hard when you know it's coming but can do nothing to prevent it - the ultimate train wreck.

@YesSheCan - you've done so well not to cave and contact her. I'm glad you know what is really going on in the background. Hope you are ok. x Also agree it's time to block.

@CeciledeVolanges - I hope you are ok now and got some sleep. I can imagine how much that must have set you on edge. Thank goodness you had the keys in the door!

@justfeelingsad - even narcissists can have days off from causing chaos. The fact that you didn't feel you could speak up and go for a coffee speaks volumes. He is always in control, and you don't feel strong enough to fight it.

As for me - mother has just cancelled our visit to her tomorrow as she has the flu. I'm more relieved about this than I probably should be!

She's been spoiling for a fight because my in-laws were here for Christmas, so she refused to come at all, blaming my step-dad.

I'm really struggling with grey rock at the moment. I keep opening my mouth and giving her personal details.... which then get thrown back in my face - ARGH so mad with myself.

Today we were talking about someone who offended her at my wedding like 9 years ago and how I didn't stick up for her. Apparently my brother brought it up on Christmas Eve when he was there - highly unlikely, he can barely remember 9 years ago and I'm sure he wouldn't have brought it up as mother fell out with his wife to be two days before their wedding and caused chaos!

I'm going back to therapy in the new year - having read a few books on toxic parents etc I feel like I've been bottling emotions up for years and it's now impacting on my life. So need to address them. Not going to be easy but I think it needs to be done.

Sigh - oh for a normal life with normal parents....

People who are narcissistic are often fine for long periods of time, as long as things are going their way. It's only when their sense of themselves as perfect is in some way threatened that they go off on one.

You say you were hungry and had a dehydration headache. Why didn't you say to your DF? Was it because you know that, as when you were a child, his good mood is paper thin and that even something as unthreatening as asserting your own need for food and drink would be enough to flip him?

Sorry that was to justfeelingsad. The thread moves on so fast these days!
About grey rock: the longer you do it, the easier it gets. Once they are not getting all the gossip, they will find it harder to know what to ask you about. They find it frustrating though so you might find that while the barbed comments reduce, the tantrums increase. Swings and roundabouts.

@ulterego that has got me smiling to myself, imagining copying their behaviour. Picture the scene; they would implode 😖

People who are narcissistic are often fine for long periods of time, as long as things are going their way.

Someone also commented about the interim early adulthood / pre-DC years being better but perhaps because you're managing their moods and behaviour better while you don't have DCs to focus on. Been thinking about this, was he better or did I just put up with it when not worrying about protecting my DCs from him? Certainly some specific upsetting incidents like visiting him for first time with now DH (abroad so 3 night stay) and he was absolutely horrendous to DH, just spoke to him like the dirt on the bottom of his shoe, or ignored him, then in an email shortly after our return said it was a shame DH hadn't shown any interest - I did put him right in an email reply, told him he'd been incredibly rude to DH, no apology if course. And several years later when we visited to tell them we were getting married, he said nothing and walked out of the room (his partner did the right thing) and then when I excused myself and followed him out to the kitchen, he said "I thought you said you were never going to get married" (which I probably did say when I was 17, but heh, guess what dad I changed my mind now I'm 33!). I mean, I get that he doesn't really approve of DH who didn't pass exams and isn't well read, but FFS we'd been together about 10 years by then. I don't remember him being so negative to me about me directly during that time, and I think the negativity towards my DCs or about them gradually increased as they got older which offended me more. I think he got worse with age, but also very critical of how children should behave and absolutely no empathy with them. Oh another incident, just reminded me with complete lack if empathy with children, when at my DH's DF's funeral, which my F decided to come to, and 8 yr old neice absent mindedly fiddled with contents of my F's partner's handbag - I mean I admit slightly odd behaviour but a little girl, just lost her beloved GF, in a very adult and unfamiliar environment, give her a bit of a leeway, but honestly they made a massive fuss about it at the time and went on about it for YEARS, always asking if DN was still odd even when she reached young adulthood!

It was me that said that about the interim childless years Freshstart! I bet you managed his mood all the time you were around him. It's something we do as second nature. Did you ever have the post holiday visit rush of utter joy at being back in your own life? I can remember it now although I put out of my mind at the time - I think I put a lot of things out of my mind, that's how I dealt with it, but it was also the reason it took me so long to see how poisonous my other actually is.

I think when you have kids you start to realise very seriously how messed up you need to be to treat children the way you yourself were treated, perhaps? Although I didn’t. I just doubled down on trying harder to get them to like me.

@Herocomplex for sure, when we were children we didn't question the way they went on. I can see why you kept trying to maintain your relationship though, I have done the same thing myself. I'd still be doing it now if my DH hadn't challenged them and caused world war 3. Our roles in the family dynamic are well worn in and it is very uncomfortable and unsafe feeling to stop playing our designated part. It's what we did to keep as safe as possible as kids. Even when we know it's dysfunctional and unhelpful as adults we are still scared of the consequences of challenging them; when we've experienced the rage in the past when we don't do exactly as they wish x

@ManonBlackbeak Yes that is the same with my DF, whenever something happens he is uncomfortable with he will be unwell or tired. Whenever my DM is unwell, he also has to be unwell but worse than her.

@toomuchtooold Thank you for your response. I don't know a lot about narcissism and have a lot of reading to do so you saying that they are fine so long as everything is good for them is really helpful and enlightening.

I also realise now how silly it was that I didn't just tell him I'm hungry and thirsty and I'm going to get lunch. If I was with a friend or my siblings or DM I would have just said it. Even when shopping I was rushing as fast as I could, barely looking at what I was buying my DM for her birthday as I felt so panicked and stressed about irritating my DF as I knew he hates shopping. When I was little if me or my sibliings misbehaved whilst shopping he would walk out and I would be terrified. I think I am scared of that happening even though I am an adult, if he did that I would just get the bus/train/walk home.

Hi. Sorry for the late reply. I've been at work today. Thank you eveyone for the lovely messages. I really appreciate the support. I feel angry with myself because when i had dc 1 i hadn't spoken to dm in years. I let her back into our lives when dc 1 was 6 months because i wanted the dc to have a grandmother. Now the dc adore her and have done nothing but ask me when they can see her again since she stopped talking to me a week ago. I know i need to walk away to protect us but i dont want to hurt the dc.