"But we took you to Stately Homes" November 2019 onwards thread

[toomuchtooold]

It's November 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
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March 2011
November 2011
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October-November 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@SingingLily @AttilaTheMeerkat

I am shocked. I have reread descriptions of narcissism and I feel like the scales have fallen from my eyes. I think you are both correct, I think he is a covert narcissist. Even reading back my post it was so obvious and I never realised. Nearly every nice thing he has done I can explain a way that it serves himself. I always cringe whenever he does anything "nice", like giving money to someone with a charity collection box, as it is so inauthentic and isn't done because he has some spare change to give but is so he can look like a good, lovely, kind, charitable person.

The only thing that does not perfectly click is his bad social skills. He doesn't have any friends and is retired so he is not surrounded by people that prop up his ego, just family. In social situations he does not brag as he just does not speak at all. At home he doesn't really brag either. But everything else matches him perfectly.

I am sad when I realise how the rest of the family (my siblings, my DM and myself) have had to appease him. The other day my 18 year old sister had an argument with him and I found myself encouraging her to be the bigger, better person aka suppress her feelings and let it go to appease my DF. The 18 year old shouldn't be the one having to be the better person, they should be "allowed" to be a typical stroppy 18 year old who argues with her DF every now and again. I am so sad for my siblings and so sad for my DM.

The only thing that does not perfectly click is his bad social skills. He doesn't have any friends and is retired so he is not surrounded by people that prop up his ego, just family. In social situations he does not brag as he just does not speak at all.

That's my mother you're describing, Just. The whole family must revolve around her and her whims. If they don't, she sulks, gaslights, causes tension between family members (while swearing them to secrecy), cries, invents illnesses for sympathy, rants, explodes. It's like watching an elderly toddler: all smiles when she is getting her own way but all tears and tantrums when she's not.

I'm sorry. People like your father and my mother grow older but they never grow up. They require constant attention and so everyone ends up walking on eggshells around them, lying to ward off the inevitable tantrums, and constantly putting themselves last by "being the bigger person".

It's exhausting.

You can't win this game, you know. All you can do is step back and refuse to play.

That's my mother you're describing, Just. The whole family must revolve around her and her whims. If they don't, she sulks, gaslights, causes tension between family members (while swearing them to secrecy), cries, invents illnesses for sympathy, rants, explodes. It's like watching an elderly toddler: all smiles when she is getting her own way but all tears and tantrums when she's not.

You've just described my DM right there SingingLily. Its amazing how many of us have had similar experiences isnt it? She has to be in control of every situation that she is in, she can't just sit back and go with the flow. The sulks, the strops, the snide comments said under her breath but said loud enough that those around her can hear, the explosions of rage, feiging illness and exagerating existing health conditions etc. Its draining.

Narcissism runs in her family, her DM was one and her sister is one. DM I think had traits as well, thugh she is nowhere near as bad as them. I actually think I got off lightly when I see what my cousins have been through!

Yesterday she wasn't too bad , but she has really upset a member of our extended family and has absolutely no idea that she's done this although she did say she thought this person was quiet. No this person was quiet and off with you, because you've upset them! Both DF and I know and know the reason why, but he doesn't want me to say anything and to be honest I can see why. She won't admit or see what she's done so whats the sodding point?

the snide comments said under her breath but said loud enough that those around her can hear

My late father was deaf and only wore a hearing aid in one ear...the ear furthest away from my mother's armchair. I don't think it was a coincidence. All he ever really wanted to do was to sit in his armchair and "listen to the music playing in my head".

It gave her free rein, though, to play on his deafness and mutter the nastiest things to me, goading me. If I ever reacted, my completely oblivious father wouldn't understand why and my mother would then commandeer him as a witness, demanding to know whether he had ever heard her say the horrible things I claimed she had said. Of course he had not. And it proved her point, that I was the crazy one who made things up.

The irony, Manon, is that all these people who think they are special and unique are actually all the flaming same.

Yes, it's draining. That's why stepping away from it all is the only known antidote.

I feel like everything is falling into place in my head. It all makes sense now. I am so grateful to this thread as now I am able to put a name to it I can research how to handle myself better and try and mentally heal from it.

Thank you

Just, on so many levels, I am sorry. It's incredibly painful when it all falls into place. But you are right - now that you know what you are dealing with, you can take steps to protect your own mental and emotional wellbeing 💐

@justfeelingsad Hi and welcome. Your dad sounds very like my mother. For a long time I didn't think my mother was a narcissist and just had poor social skills too as she was usually silent in social situations unless someone made a fuss of her or she had reason to start sulking and moaning about something.

The problem is she's actually not that bright despite the fact she thinks she is so she's unable to join in with anything that isn't about her. I have never heard my mother have an interesting conversation in her life. Everything she talks about is things that have happened to her which are so unbelievably mundane and boring.

She cannot see that nobody is interested in that time she came back to the car parked in Sainsbury's and someone had parked so close to her to she had to get in via the passenger side. Or the other time she took a cake out of the oven and one half had sunk a bit so she had to turn it over to hide it.

Those kind of everyday situation she could turn into 20 minute monologues that would put Alan Bennett to shame. But without the grace or humour.

And yes, they are all the same. Boring people who have no view of the world outside of what goes on in their heads.

I hope everyone survived Christmas. This is the first Christmas I have ever enjoyed. Although I haven't spent Christmas Day with my mother for a few years even the obligatory phone call and trying to find a gift that she might actually appreciate, and the dread that I would have to make a pilgrimage in the New Year would ruin it for me. I didn't have to bother with any of that this year.

@ManonBlackbeak your point about having to be in control of every situation is interesting. My mother could never relax and have fun. Everything had to be done in the proper way and of course her idea of doing things the proper way was completely bat shit crazy.

Of course it meant that nobody else could relax around her either. Everyone was terrified of getting something wrong and getting criticised or she'd start interfering. I remember if she was in the kitchen while someone was cooking she'd literally grab hold of their hand if she thought they were stirring or chopping something the wrong way. And this could be to complete strangers if it was a big family get together or something. So bloody rude too.

@yellowlemon
This is the first Christmas I have ever enjoyed

We should put that in the OP, we really should. That's fantastic.

What everyone is saying about narcissists, I think the problem for the covert ones is that they often cope with their lack of impression on the outside world by ruling in their own house. And when everyone starts leaving and starting their own families they feel their grip loosening and their behaviour gets much worse. For me that followed a period in your early adulthood when my relationship with my mother seemed to improve (I think it was more a matter of me getting better at managing her moods, as I was an adult, and just being around my mother less) and I started to forget how shit it had been when I was a kid. It came as a big surprise to discover/remember how much of a nutter my mother was once I had my kids and couldn't focus on managing her moods the whole time like I used to.

Thanks @toomuchtooold. I'm never going to have a family Christmas and I accept that now.

But the Christmas I just spent with some very dear friends was exactly how I imagine Christmas should always have been, relaxing, lazy, a little bit naff, lots of chit chat and laughing, watching crap telly, food, drink, and not a bloody performance or ritual or standing on ceremony in sight.

I really hope everyone else on this thread gets to experience their own version of Christmas one day and not what is expected of them.

Hi everyone, haven't posted in this thread before but did post on MN last year when I managed to get my DD and myself away from controlling, emotionally abusive mother. Have been NC since and although it's been a very stressful year I still have so much more peace of mind because I am not constantly explaining and justifying everything I do to my mother and trying to firefight the daily dramas my mother created with my DD. Today I found out from a family friend that my younger brother has told my mother where we now live. I'm not sure if he remembers or gave the exact address so now I'm so anxious with the uncertainty that she may turn up here and create a huge scene. I ended up calling the police to remove her from my house last year before we managed to move away from the area, but for various reasons we ended up moving back nearer to where my mum is living and she could easily turn up if she knew the address. I know I can just tell her to leave and even call the police again if she refuses to and starts being abusive but I'm exhausted and already have anxiety and it would be the last thing me or my DD need right now! Just venting really

:

Oops tried to do the bold type thing and failed!

Christmas always brings it out doesn't it. Anger, rage, tears. You always think it will be different but it never is.
I'm completely alone this year post divorce, had to sell my lovely house and moved to a cheaper area many miles away. living in a rented shit hole while I am buying something.
Not one member of my family bothered to ring me over Christmas to say happy Christmas. I can't ring them because my stepfather will put the phone down if he gets to it first.
They know I'm incredibly lonely at the moment but nothing, not even my mother bothered to contact me mainly because she believes everything my stepfather tells her and he puts me down every chance he gets. Same with my siblings, they are half siblings his children and he has poisoned them against me over the years.
So same old Christmas, all these painful memories of every Christmas he has treated me like shit when I was at "home". Before slinging me out at 16. I should go NC but I really don't have anyone else and i am emotionally crippled. He sexually abused me as well but nobody knows about that. I've never manahed to get the words out of my mouth and they wouldn't believe me anyway.
I really hate Christmas.

YesSheCan I remember your thread. I'm so glad it all worked out. I hope your mother stays away but if she does turn up, remember you are the person who managed to get her out of your life the first time, you will cope. Keep up the NC - letters and presents straight in the bin, don't answer the door to her, and block her number if she tries to ring you. Her bag of tricks will run out pretty quickly. They're only intimidating because we suffered them through childhood, they are actually quite pathetic.

catlady I'm really sorry that you are having such a difficult Christmas and I hope that the new year brings better things, I imagine that your new place will improve things a lot. I think your decision not to disclose to your family about the sexual abuse is probably a very wise one tbh. To me sounds like your stepfather has made efforts to isolate you in the family exactly so that you wouldn't be believed if you spoke up. I can't understand the mind of a woman who, like your mother, would believe the worst of her daughter that someone else had to say. You deserved better. I hope that the holiday passes quickly for you and that there are brighter days ahead in the new year.

@toomuchtooold They're only intimidating because we suffered them through childhood, they are actually quite pathetic.

So much this. I was terrified of my own mother until a few weeks ago. Like I would actually shake and feel sick at the thought of having to speak to her.

Reading this thread made me realise that she is just this pathetic, lonely, bitter, old woman. There is absolutely nothing to be frightened of. So what if she's disappointed in me? What's she going to do? Ground me and stop my pocket money? (I was never allowed out and never got pocket money anyway!)

It's horrible what their years of training does to us and how much potential they take away from us. Don't let them do it to any of you any more.

Hi I haven't posted for a while so hi to all the new people 😀. I have just had the first Christmas since I told my mother I wanted nothing more to do with her and my stepfather and I'm feeling quite tearful. We had my in laws and my dad over for the day and it was lovely, I felt how I did years and years ago when my grandparents were still alive and we were a close family. And today I feel like crying. I think it's a bit because I was watching my kids and thinking how happy they were and I was upset at how my childhood was ruined by that man, with his threats and anger and all the rest of it. He has ruined it all and I think maybe I'm grieving or something because there was no message, delivery of presents, nothing at all from them. It's what I wanted but it's a bit like 'well, it's definitely over' and I'm relieved and know it's for the best but I'm just really upset about the whole situation, the fact it's so messed up and that I've lost my mother now which is not what I wanted, but she had chosen that bastard over her kids and as long as he is alive that is always going to be the way. And I hate her for that. But I don't want to not have a mother. I feel about 5 years old. ☹️

Have managed to get through Christmas and my birthday without messaging, speaking or visiting my parents. Excruciatingly difficult but we’ll worth the pain.

@SimplySteveRedux Well done. You've been a huge help to me (and I'm sure many others) on this thread.

Wishing you all the best and I hope 2020 is a better year for you.

I'm relieved and know it's for the best but I'm just really upset about the whole situation, the fact it's so messed up and that I've lost my mother now which is not what I wanted

Oh, Marmaduke, I know that feeling. It's the death of hope, the flicker of hope that you kept alive that she would somehow wake up and let you know that she was still there. I'm sorry. It was that hope that kept me going while my Dad was alive, even though it was agony at the same time because anyone could see how miserable he was. Your mother has made her choice. If she realises it was a mistake, she won't ever admit it, not even to herself. You can't do anything to help her because she doesn't want to be helped, and that's so hard. Yes, it's exactly like grieving because you are grieving. Still, you had a lovely Christmas with your family, your in-laws and your own father in the respect that there would have been none of the usual tense atmosphere that your stepfather manages to generate around him. You can make a new family tradition from that. Keep going 💐

Steve, thank goodness you got through it. You've had such a difficult year, on top of so many difficult years. I truly hope that 2020 will bring you some measure of peace and a large dollop of well-deserved good fortune.

In fact, I wish that for everyone on here. 💐

Thanks @SingingLily x

madcatladyforever I'm so sorry this has happened to you. I think you're stronger than you realise. You say you know you should go NC but then you wouldn't have anyone. I know its easy for me to say when I'm not in your shoes, but I think its pretty clear that having noone is better than being continually abused like this. You deserve a different life, you are worth it. Please post some more on here, a safe place, it'll help.

I think maybe I'm grieving or something
@MarmadukeM this is definitely what happened to me after I had counselling and spoke about my mum. The first session was the most powerful and life changing for me when she said the words narcissist
i grieved for the life I didn't have and the relationship that I wouldn't ever have with her

Hi madcatlady

I believe you

Your family of origin have not changed a bit and IIRC were not at all bothered with you at all prior to moving either. Better to be apart from them altogether than to be so badly accompanied.

Please consider talking to an organisation like NAPAC about the sexual abuse at his hands. That abuse of power and control is all on him, it was not your fault that happened to you and you are not to blame in any way. They can and will help you here. Abuse thrives on secrecy, shine a light on it and find a way through the darkness here.

Sorry, my emotional state is just empty and bereft. Birthday was yesterday and we didn't go, but they've (parents, brother, sister in law) been discussing me in great detail.

I should've had benzodiazepines to get me over the Christmas period but looks like the letter from psychiatrist was sent to my previous GP.

Just been a shit Christmas, and birthday, don't know how much more I can take to be honest.

Sorry, I'll slink back off now. There are so many things I want to do, to self-validate almost, I doubt I will even bother baby steps as too scared of failure. That's part of the problem, unable to validate myself, no self-esteem, etc etc.

Much love to you all, ☃️🍾🍹🍸🥃🍺💝,

• Steve.