"But we took you to Stately Homes" November 2019 onwards thread

[toomuchtooold]

It's November 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
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December 2013
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December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
May-August 2019
August-October 2019
October-November 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Very jealous of your relaxing Christmas @ulterego hope you have a good day.

I'm staying at parents tonight. F has come home extremely drunk tonight from the pub. M commented someone else in their group mentioned how drunk He was. He is trying to act like he's not that drunk. So tonight will he the 5th day of consecutively drinking, and tomorrow he will be too. I think the thing that is filling me with anxiety the most for tomorrow is him becoming drunk. I hate him when he is drunk so unpredictable. Either ok or angry. And I'll admit he terrifies me when he's angry

Winter, that sounds uncomfortable in the extreme☹️
is there any way you can feign illness and make a quick escape?
you shouldn't have to tolerate that kind of behaviour 😥

I can't @ulterego all my DS presents are at my Dsis and we are all going round later for dinner and present opening. Oh and BIL woman hating father is going to be there too. Brilliant 😫 hopefully I don't have to stay too long

Hello there. I’ve been reading the thread and the strength of all of you confounds me. You beautiful people.
I stopped talking to my mother three months ago and she’s not stopped contacting me since.
With my father who is more bearable but is still physically abusing, constantly invalidating, excusing my mother for everything and telling me what I remember doesn’t exist. I don’t want to be here. I’m drunk. My boyfriend left me a while ago and I remember this time last year when I was with his family. They bought me pencils and everyone was smiling and laughing and it was wonderful. I haven’t self-harmed since April and I fear it will happen again within a few hours. Sorry to come here on the thread and dump on all of you.

Hi Cecile😊
This thread is always here you can come here and talk to us about your family, anytime.
I don't have any experience of dealing with self harming, so you will have to help me to help you, if a friend was in your situation what advice would you give her to get through the short term?
Have you been able to seek any help, have you been given any tools or techniques?

Hi Cecil

(((((((((((cecil)))))))))))))))

Do not go all British on us here and say sorry, there is really no need.

Would urge you to cut all contact with both abuser parents; they have and continue to fail you utterly here. Block them on all channels. Seek legal advice as soon as you are able re your mother because what she is doing to you amounts to harassment; that is what unwanted contact is.

It is not your fault your parents are like this and you did not make them that way.

Can you start the process of sobering up now if you have not already; alcohol as well is a depressant and its doing you no favours.

Please resist all those powerful urges to self harm. The Samaritans are also on hand today to help if you're feeling so very low on 116123; please call them. Go out for a walk, feel the sun on your face. It all sounds trite and perhaps it is but gratitude for such small things also is a comfort. Love your own self for a change.

Go well today

My best wishes too to all the Stately Homes posters - past present and future. This thread is very much needed

And next Christmas I will be abroad. I have promised myself this!

Well done for not responding to your mother for 3-months Cecile, it's very hard when they just won't take no for an answer but you have resisted so you must be strong!
As Attila says, block them on all channels this will make it much easier to put her out of your mind

Bless you, thank you for replying.
I actually am a lawyer and have done quite a lot of pro bono work putting forward amendments to the Domestic Abuse Bill, and have had papers published on domestic abuse! But when my dad can physically overpower me and say the law doesn’t matter and has no application to my situation and I’m being ridiculous it somehow feels like it doesn’t matter.
It does feel like because nobody wants to protect me and get me out, and because all my friends are married now and have nothing really to do with me, I’d be alone if I didn’t have my family, and I do love them and want them to be happy. I moved back in with my parents last November to stop her getting at my grandparents which she is now doing.

Cecile, you want to protect you and get you out, you deserve to be happy and safe
You must prioritise your own well-being.

Merry Christmas to everyone today. Thinking of you all and sending positive thoughts xxx

Not sure if this has been posted already but dh saved it to show me and it really resonated

twitter.com/sofiehagen/status/944121923155513344?s=21

I received an answer phone message. My mother was outside my house, she seems to have a new phone number as I had blocked her. I was actually away (this was a few days ago).

My sister who accused me of being a pathological liar, the last time I saw her, has sent me a box of something. I wasn't here to receive it so am going to let the post office send it back to her.

My family have sent me cards that I haven't read. I'm wondering why my mother turned up. She put a note through the door asking me to contact her. For what? Everytime I speak to her she criticises me and tells me what a worthless piece of crap I am, how ashamed she is etc

The last time I went back for Christmas my mum sat me down on Christmas Day and told me that there were plenty of other people she could spend Christmas with. I haven't gone back since.

I think it's because her family have found out we haven't been in contact since 2016. They must be telling her to sort it out between us, because I can't imagine her bothering otherwise.

Anyway, I'm spending Christmas by myself, I'm safe and warm. I'm going to make myself some dinner later and am thankful that I'm not in an abusive and dysfunctional atmosphere. The problem is, I feel bad about not being there, suffering in silence. I'm still putting other people before myself.

She put a note through the door asking me to contact her. For what? Everytime I speak to her she criticises me and tells me what a worthless piece of crap I am, how ashamed she is etc
she wants you to be in contact so that she can carry on attacking you, it's as simple as that.
You have nothing to feel bad about, you are doing the right thing protecting yourself from these dreadful people, keep up the good work

There’s nothing virtuous about suffering. This way you put yourself in a better position to be good to yourself and those around you.

Parmesan, your mother had a ton of chances to make this better if she wanted to. You stay strong.

I haven’t read the whole thread (I’m working my way through it, so I will) but I just needed to rant somewhere, and it seems like you guys get it.

So my father is an alcoholic (dry, not through choice but enforced...long story), and my mother is a narcissist. They are elderly. DH and I went over for Xmas lunch today (I am low contact with them). Elder sibling is there.

So, there’s a lot of emotional stuff surrounding Xmas for me. Some rational, some not so much. When I was younger, for the longest time Xmas day was the only time my father would be sober. Later on, not so much...but when I was a younger kid, for sure.

There’s also a lot of weird stuff surrounding gifts that I’m trying to work through. Gifts were a substitute for love, in short. And my father would buy our silence, or compliance, with gifts. So I’ve always held gifts in quite high regard, because I was taught to. And there was always a lot of stuff about the better the gift, or the more expensive, or the more thought-out then the more the gift-giver gave a shit. It sounds really messed up to type it, but I’m hoping someone else understands how gifts can be used as weapons by emotionally abusive parents. And how feeling a certain way about gifts from them isn’t coming from a money-grabbing place, but rather it’s highly emotive because of the messed up way my family functioned around gifts as I was growing up.

Anyway, so today we go there and I’ve really tried with their gifts. Being thoughtful but also spending a decent amount. I try really hard when it comes to shopping for other people.

And then my OH gets some pretty decent stuff from them that he had on his wish list.

And I get to my gifts and I get a bunch of “off a market stall” type stuff that is very loosely related to things I like in passing, on a surface level, but anyone who really knows me would know I wouldn’t at all be interested in. And some handmade stuff that my mother makes as a hobby and constantly seeks affirmation on.

So now I’ve got all these mixed emotions going on. Because on one hand it feels like they don’t know me at all. And even though I’ve been low contact and deliberately trying not to give them ammunition by keeping things I hold dear away from conversations with them, it really stings. And for the homemade stuff - on the surface it seems like time and effort has gone into it, but this stuff really isn’t my thing, and they know it, and it’s all about “look how brilliantly I did this thing” rather than “I did this thing because I thought YOU would really like it.”

And I try to talk to my husband about it, but he just doesn’t get it and he thinks I’m just wanting better gifts. Which I do, but not for the materialistic reasons he’s thinking, but because gifts = giving a shit in my family. So now I feel frustrated because it is coming across like I’m being materialistic (and it’s not OH’s fault he doesn’t get it. Why would he? And he’s trying), and I feel guilty on top of it because now I’m feeling all this stuff and it’s Xmas day and I don’t want to ruin it for my husband. And I’m annoyed that I’m not over all of this shit already (I’ve been through therapy many times and dealt with a whole bunch of parent related crap over the years).

Hopefully someone else gets it.

Sorry for the rant.

And I try to talk to my husband about it, but he just doesn’t get it
Hi Writersblock, I know I'm going off on a tangent with this reply but my guess is that your husband doesnt want to do the hard mental work required to put himself in your place and see it through your eyes, there's also a sense of him minimizing and dismissing things which are very significant for you?
(Apologies if I am speaking out of turn about your husband)

No, he tries. He just finds it hard to understand. He listens and asks the right questions. The reality of he didn’t have that upbringing or issues with family in the same way so he finds it hard to relate. My issue isn’t with my husband.

Writersblock
I totally get the gift thing. It was how i was brought up too. Dm would be really abusive then give you a gift, we were very poor growing up but dm always made a big fuss about giftd as a result I'm a gift giver and i put my all into the present so when someone doesn't make the effort it really stings. My dm insists on buying dcs the best presents becuase she has to outdo eveyone. This year she had a melt down and has spent all today texting me to tell me has put my dcs gifts in the bin.
It sounds like your dm gives u a homemade gift so she can make it all about her. I expect they also buy dh a really nice gift to insure you feel pushed out.

Writersblock

re your narcissistic mother:-

Narcissists are really crap at gift giving. First, narcissists lack empathy, so they don't know what you want or like and, evidently, they don't care either; second, they think their opinions are better and more important than anyone else's, so they'll give you what they think you ought to want, regardless of what you may have said when asked what you wanted for your birthday; third, they're stingy and will give as gifts stuff that's just lying around their house, such as possessions that they no longer have any use for, or in really choice instances return to you something that was yours in the first place. In fact, as a practical matter, the surest way NOT to get what you want from a narcissist is to ask for it; your chances are better if you just keep quiet, because every now and then the narcissist will hit on the right thing by random accident. (Have tried this method myself and it did work with regards to MIL).

My narcissistic MIL is of a similar bent and one year presented me with a present still wrapped in its packaging from Amazon. Its what I call a no thought present. She does not know me at all even after all these years of me being married to her son.

Don't spend Christmas day with your parents ever again.

I would further lower all contact levels with them and besides which it is not possible to have a relationship with a narcissist. Your dad is really also her secondary abuser/enabler here as well as an alcoholic (their relationship is really a destructive dance of codependency) and he is complicit.

Well I had the worst Christmas ever! Least my DS had a nice day though. Surprisingly my M was ok. D didn't get drunk. It was.my BIL and his F that were the problem. They were so bloody rude and ungrateful. BIL made my Dsis cry by having a go at her out of the way. Not until I asked if she was ok that she said he shouted at her for falling asleep with a newborn baby!! I'm never going there again. My Dsis and BIL have a toxic relationship I'd say. It just makes you feel on edge. I'm so tired. Finally in bed and in peace!

I hope everyone's days weren't too bad

Merry Christmas, everyone.

I have overall had a really nice Christmas Day but a few things my DF did have hurt me. Firstly, he stayed in bed until 4pm meaning he missed everyone exchanging presents and our Christmas lunch. He did this all throughout my childhood. I think I try and explain it away when I was younger by thinking "oh he's a man, Dad's don't care about sentimental things like Christmas Day" but I realise that is not the case at all. When he got up I gave him his presents. As he was unwrapping one he said "I hope this isn't X" with X being exactly what it was. Then after opening it said "I won't use this, I don't like these". Then for the other present he was holding a box and asked if it was an expensive watch he wants when it was just a cheap token present. He knows that money is tight for me right now. I don't get why he does that, I don't think it is deliberately malicious but it hurts a lot.

I don't think he is narcissistic as he doesn't think he is better than everyone. I just think he is incredibly selfish and lacks empathy. He is also very entitled, for example would have expected me to have gotten him that expensive watch even though he knows I don't have much money at the moment. Before university during my gap year I had decent savings and he felt entitled to them, he would hint all the time about me buying him things. For example if we were out shopping he would see something he wanted and say "you'll buy it for me won't you?" A few times I did. I bought him expensive speakers, a new laptop and probably more but I can't remember right now. I don't know why. I think I felt guilty and like I owed him/my parents that as I was living at home rent free during my gap year, I don't know maybe I did owe them that. Now I lie about how much money I have as I know he will guilt me into buying him things. Right now I feel guilty as I know technically in my bank I do have enough to buy him that watch but that would mean I couldn't afford other things I need. I need stronger boundaries.

Sorry for unloading here. It has been a long day.

Winterwonderland10 Sounds bloody awful and like keeping your distance is necessary, hard though it is when your sister is upset but you can't be responsible for her marital problems, you've got enough to deal with. I hope you can have a more peaceful boxing day.

justfeelingsad Completely sympathise, my Christmases growing up were bloody awful until my parents finally split, then they were just kind of a bit of a stress because I'd feel I had to balance seeing both of them, and my DM would have my DB (severe learnind dis / autistic) with her, and generally I felt like we were each individually drowning in our own ocean of sadness remembering all the miserable Christmases that had gone before. I know that its incredibly tough for you right now but it will get better once you do move out and can choose (yes you can, you don't HAVE to go back there every year). Hold on!

I'm one of the lucky ones, a good day with DH's older sis and family (grown up kids) staying who are all very chilled out. Visiting v poorly MiL tomorrow but that's ok, she can be sharp to her own DCs but always nice to me. Relief not having to phone my F, and kept quick call to my DM light as driving down (3hrs) to see her over the weekend.

I hope you've all survived whatever's been thrown at you, and you can rest up now, its pretty much done. Breathe.

Morning, all. We got through the day, one way or another, thank goodness.

I don't think he is narcissistic as he doesn't think he is better than everyone. I just think he is incredibly selfish and lacks empathy. He is also very entitled, for example would have expected me to have gotten him that expensive watch even though he knows I don't have much money at the moment.

Justfeelingsad, I'm afraid that sounds narcissistic to me, possibly the covert kind where they don't make a song or dance about being better than everyone else. However, they still believe it even if they don't express it openly. It shows in that expectation that you should go without in order to satisfy their demands and your father has demonstrated that time after time. My mother is much the same. If you met her, you would think at first that she was a quiet little woman, lacking social confidence. She's not. While she's sitting there quietly, she's judging everyone silently. When she's back on home turf, out come the strong opinions. I can't tell you how many friends my father tried to make in each new place we moved to (we moved around a lot when I was a child, always to placate my mother) and she would subtly kill each new friendship with snippy little criticisms that sowed doubt on the intentions of those new friends.

Lying to stave off an unreasonable demand or an unnecessary row? Lying just so you can get on with your own life and make your own decisions without them being picked apart and devalued? Yes, I did that for a long time too. It was a survival mechanism.

You don't have to do that around reasonable people.

Justfeelingsad

re your comment on your dad:-

"I don't think he is narcissistic as he doesn't think he is better than everyone. I just think he is incredibly selfish and lacks empathy. He is also very entitled, for example would have expected me to have gotten him that expensive watch even though he knows I don't have much money at the moment".

Am sorry but that description is textbook covert narcissist; narcissistic people anyway absolutely lack empathy. And you, as a now adult child of a narcissist, your own boundaries are crap mainly because you've also been encouraged to not have any (you've been trained really from early childhood to serve them).

Please do not put yourself through such a miserable sounding Christmas day at your parents again. Be kind to yourself going forward and further lower all levels of contact with these people.