"But we took you to Stately Homes" November 2019 onwards thread

[toomuchtooold]

It's November 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
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Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
May-August 2019
August-October 2019
October-November 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Winterwonderland Glad your evening wasn't too bad, was he on his best behaviour with others there? Typical narcisstic behaviour, not believing anyone elses opinion could be right, yes? Another sign of the lack of empathy, comsidering other peoples needs and feelings. Also the immaturity, not understanfing that someone elses 'right' doesn't have to make your view 'wrong'. I like chocolate over crisps, doesn't make all the crisp lovers wrong.

Shewhomustgowithoutname

Too funny . At least she did follow your wishes, kind of.

@ClosedAuraOpenMind ffs wow! Maybe you could try to use it to make positive memories of those place with your dd?

I've been reading through th threads trying to clarify my thoughts. We've just been to do the big food shop for Christmas. I always feel quite anxious doing food shopping as my mum used to do it quite sporadically and although not poor by an means she has a lot of issues around spending money. She obviously hated the burden of food shopping and made that very clear through her passive aggressive behaviour. I can't put my finger on exactly why but it makes me anxious now as a 34 year old.

The type of passivity or lack of interest @namechange2311 talks about much earlier in this thread (and in her own separate thread) feel pretty similar. Although I think my packed lunch box was clean!

Interesting stuff on here giving me much food for thought.

I said on here earlier that growing up I was a huge tomboy. Loved toy cars and motorbikes, football and riding bikes and being outdoors and getting dirty etc. Always wanted to wear track suits and trainers, hated dresses and even now don’t feel 100% comfortable in them. Anyway I digress. DM totally ignored this. She would force me to wear hideous frilly party dresses, and shoes and put huge bows in my hair. She’d buy me dollies and prams and dolls houses. It wasn’t me. I hated it and felt so uncomfortable.

I remember I desperately wanted to play a particular sport and my parents wouldn’t let me because it was ‘for boys’, as I got older I wanted to do martial arts and wasn’t allowed as this was also ‘for boys’. Eventually I was allowed to go to a karate class but it was with a friend who’s parents took me and it was never really encouraged and I soon stopped going.

I don’t know the point I’m trying to make really, but I don’t think DM really gets me or knows anything about me. Only how she thinks I should be. This extends into Christmas she will always ask me what I want as a present because she simply doesn’t know what I like even though I tell her often. She will get me a gift bag and it will have things she thinks I’d like but have little use for.

I probably sound so ungrateful now don’t I?

@ManonBlackbeak I think it's about not being know or heard. Rather than being ungrateful.

Hi everyone,

Not sure if I’m meant to be here or not, but need a place to vent. Unfortunately going to keep it vague as I feel details would be too identifying otherwise.

I don’t feel like I have a relationship with either of my parents. They’re divorced now, and have been for many years. I rarely speak to my dad, my mum has issues with alcohol and I rarely see my siblings.

My mum always has to make everything about her. On the very rare occasion that I’m unwell, she doesn’t ask how I am, but will instead tell me how she has the flu/a cold/whatever else it is (she always has something). She doesn’t have a maternal bone in her body and doesn’t really show any interest in her grandchildren. She does the school run for us once a week, and that is the only time we/my kids see her. When we haven’t needed her to do this for us we have gone almost 2 whole months without seeing/hearing from her despite the fact she lives within walking distance. She’s forgotten my birthday before as well.

I was estranged from my dad for a period of about 3 years, but now we’re speaking again. Both parents are much closer and have more ‘normal’ relationship with my siblings. They certainly favour them over me. One year, my ONLY birthday present off them (they were still together then) was a NOW music CD. They weren’t short of cash for other things. That same year, one of my siblings got a new phone and a trumpet for their birthday.

When I went to uni, I became financially independent overnight. They came to visit me and I was absolutely skint (spent my student loan, worked part time). I wasn’t going to ask them for money because they didn’t have loads of cash (with hindsight, more mismanagement on their part rather than lack of earnings) but my dad went shopping and spent £100s on new clothes. So I built up the courage to ask if I could have some money as I was skint. They gave me a £10 note. I cried as I watched them drive off because I realised then how little they cared about me. About 5 years later my youngest sibling got a car for her birthday off them.

I’ve had counselling and I probably need some more. I just feel like if I raised any of this with either of them, they’d be completely oblivious and down play it all. And then I doubt it myself. The logical adult part of my brain thinks that I did have an abusive/traumatic childhood. But then I also think “get a grip, people go through MUCH worse. They weren’t that bad.”

I’m sitting here listening to my additional needs children fighting. DH is at work and all my friends have such supportive parents. My mum will be here for Xmas and expect us to wait on her, and she won’t lift a finger to help. I just feel such anger and hatred towards them both and then at other times indifference. It’s as if I wouldn’t even care if something happened to either of them. That’s awful for me to say, but sadly it’s how I feel.

I don’t really know why I’m posting. I suppose when I write things down it validates my feelings.

Hi Pluto

You are absolutely meant to be on here; your parents, particularly your mother, are toxic and have not changed since your own miserable sounding childhood. It is NOT your fault they are like this and you did not make them that way.

Do read the Out of the Fog and the Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers websites. Women like your mother (and I would think she is narcissistic in terms of personality) cannot do relationships and so the men in their lives are either discarded or are actually as narcissistic as they are. Not surprised at all to read therefore your parents got divorced. Your dad failed you as well here too; he has failed abjectly to protect you from your mother's excesses of behaviour.

Why is your mother coming to yours for Christmas or did she really force her own self onto you (I appreciate she lives within walking distance, have you actually considered moving house?).
Is she invited because of any and all residual fear, obligation and guilt?. The FOG are but three of many damaging legacies such people leave their now adult children. Are you hoping that this Christmas you will finally get her approval or she will behave better despite your own experiences to the contrary?. Neither scenario will happen.

I would now rescind your invitation to your mother; cite illness or something. I would not have entertain such a miserable spectre at the feast. She is not bothered about either you or your kids in any case. Narcissistic people really do have no empathy whatsoever and make it all about them.

People from dysfunctional families as well end up playing roles; yours here appears to be the scapegoat for all their inherent ills and I note that your other siblings are far more favoured. Why is she not going to visit them?

Can you access more counselling in the near future; I would suggest you do this. Post Christmas also I would also find someone else to do that school run as well. She was not a good parent to you when you were growing up and she is a crap example of a grandparent to your kids too. Better no grandparents in their lives than crap and or otherwise toxic ones.

"This extends into Christmas she will always ask me what I want as a present because she simply doesn’t know what I like even though I tell her often. She will get me a gift bag and it will have things she thinks I’d like but have little use for".

You tell her and she still buys what she perceives you ought to want, she sees you as an extension of her. It also shows a lack of respect for you as a person.

Narcissists are really crap at gift giving. First, narcissists lack empathy, so they don't know what you want or like and, evidently, they don't care either; second, they think their opinions are better and more important than anyone else's, so they'll give you what they think you ought to want, regardless of what you may have said when asked what you wanted for your birthday; third, they're stingy and will give as gifts stuff that's just lying around their house, such as possessions that they no longer have any use for, or in really choice instances return to you something that was yours in the first place. In fact, as a practical matter, the surest way NOT to get what you want from a narcissist is to ask for it; your chances are better if you just keep quiet, because every now and then the narcissist will hit on the right thing by random accident. (Have tried this method myself and it did work with regards to MIL).

My narcissistic MIL is of a similar bent and one year presented me with a present still wrapped in its packaging from Amazon. Its what I call a no thought present. She does not know me at all even after all these years of me being married to her son.

I probably sound so ungrateful now don’t I?

No you do not. Not in the least

Sorry Manon, I posted the above before I addressed it to you.

And then I doubt it myself
we all doubt ourselves, all try to rationalise it because we are first and foremost trained to trust and obey our parent, this is how they are able to damage us so much, their attacks fly under the radar and we have no defense against them.
Being treated so obviously as if you are lesser than your siblings IS very damaging, we need our parents to build us up, help us to have good strong self esteem, if they instead crush us we are very compromised.

I am struggling today. DM and I had a shopping trip planned tomorrow and she has now cancelled as she wants to clean the garage out instead. I was really looking forward to it as after university I have been feeling quite low. I get that it is a busy time of year and there is lots of prep to do but at the same time it just hurts the way she cancels things like that all the time. It is so often that we make plans and she cancels them. It has made me realise I need to move out soon and build a life for myself away from them and make more effort to see friends in the new year. It is just hard after moving back from uni after being used to having friends all within a 15 minute walk away.

Another thing she said really has annoyed me and made me realise how messed up the dynamic is in my family. After cancelling she says we probably wouldn't have been "allowed" to go anyway referring to my DF "letting" us go. DF hates us going out together as it means he is left at home "to do everything". Everything being feeding the cat and maybe answering the door to the occasional parcel. He cannot cope with any kind of responsibility at all. I am just feeling so frustrated with it all.

Does anyone know what would cause someone to be completely unable to cope with normal life? He gets overwhelmed by everything. Right now he is overwhelmed and lying on the floor of the dining room (I guess to get attention) because tomorrow he needs to do a one hour round-trip to pick up my DSis and bring her home for Christmas. That is his sole responsibility and job this week and he is overwhelmed with it and saying he has no time to himself and has so much to do. Right now knowing he is overwhelmed and soon will start getting frustrated and being angry and grouchy when anyone tries to talk to him I feel completely filled with anxiety. I never noticed before how on edge I feel because of him. I thought growing up with it I would be numb to it but I am so on edge, everytime I hear a noise downstairs I panic and mute the TV to listen in case an argument is starting.

@justfeelingsad I'm really sorry you're feeling this way but you're not alone we all understand here. Your DF seems to be the main issue here. I would bet he guilt tripped your mum into not going with you and therefore she cancelled. How does she handle his behaviour?

He seems passive aggressive and dramatic! What grown man lies on a floor and says he's overwhelmed. At best he has anxiety and at worst he is a malnipitive person knowing exactly what he's doing.

Read into the fog website that's always a good place to start. It's not until we have been outside the situation e.g. you at uni that we then can see it from the outside. It's very obvious. Mine Happened when I moved out and had a child. It was very obvious then. Maybe seek counselling too because when you realise it can get a bit overwhelming.

@freshstart01 yes i believe he was on his best behaviour. Probably because I was there not drinking too.
Not sure if it's believing people or he just wants his own way no matter what people say. Especially when it comes to drinking. This week he has been out 4 nights drinking. Will be 6 by the time the week has passed. All over 8 hours of drinking or more per day. Me and my mum have "had words" with him in the past around this time of year but he doesn't listen.

Again his way. Never listens.

Not long ago we all were going to go on a family holiday. I soon realised how it was going to be when my D tried to make me look stupid in front of everyone when I dared to disagree what place to go to. He then began shoving why we should go to this place and that my suggestion wasnt good. I quickly realised the error of my ways and decided not to go! Felt pretty good as normally I'd feel guilty about not going.

Morning, everyone, I haven't been around on here much because dealing with Christmas has been harder than I thought it would be. I'm just so angry - with M and middle sister mainly, but also with Dad. DSis is struggling and I'm struggling and I'm angry with myself because I see DSis's hurt and pain and there's nothing I can do to make it any easier for her even though I desperately want to. It's a mess.

DSis is going to take some time out from work and go to counselling. She wants me to do the same (different counsellors obviously because we live two hours away from each other). I'm thinking about it. She's lent me her copy of the Phillippa Perry book and I'll see how I feel after I've read it.

I'm ignoring Christmas, not even put up the tree, and DH is going along with it. We're just going to have a quiet day, reading and watching old films.

This thread moves so fast that I don't expect my post to make any sense - sorry! - but I just wanted to get this off my chest.

I wish for all of you a peaceful day on Wednesday and if it can't be, because of others, then I hope that somewhere in the day, you find a quiet corner and a quiet moment just for you. 💐

Hi SingingLily

Think also that counselling would be of merit to you here. Anger is also part of the grief process and you may want to give CRUSE a call in this regard.

I wrote a letter to FIL after he died (1.5 sides of A4 in my handwriting) and I found it a cathartic exercise. Maybe this is something that could be helpful to you too.

Good on you for ignoring Christmas. A peaceful day sounds great. Next year we're going abroad for the festive.

Sorry to crash this thread but I think I'm going insane and from the little I know about it (am longtime mumsnetter, have name changed for this, and never been on this thread but seen it referenced on others) I think someone might be able to help?

Am spending Christmas with in laws and feel like scales have fallen from my eyes. They are just...awful to my DH.

Won't go into everything, but DH's older brother (he is youngest of 3: older sister, middle boy, then DH) had a huge and really vicious go at DH this afternoon over a small thing that left me really upset. We (me, DH, our two kids, PiL), then went to a play park and after about half an hour I started some silent crying because it had been pretty horrible and I was staggered at the real hatred I heard in DH's older brothers voice. But then MiL saw me crying and basically lectured me about how awful my DH was, how everyone has to make an effort, and said she was so disappointed and angry about family Christmas being spoiled by rows and just wanted everyone to act nice to each other even if they don't feel it. But very much directed at me and DH, with lots of slack cut for his sister and brother. I got a whole history and inventory of all the awful things Dh is - none of which I recognise, and I have known and loved this man for nearly 15 years. He has small faults like everyone but he is a fundamentally kind and loving person.

Am I insane? Is this not...bizarre? Is not a normal reaction to someone being in tears about a family member having a go at them a bit of sympathy and some even-handed attempts to help fix it?

I just...I have never really liked DH's family, and he finds them difficult, and I have always been aware that they rib him a lot and try to cut him down - they have this idea that he's very arrogant (he's really not) and are always trying to "bring him down a peg or two". But I honestly thought it was about normal families with a bit of history and long standing issues but who would at the end of the day try to do their best by everyone.

But he can't win, can he? Everyone gets slack cut for them except him?

I just feel like leaving. Unfortunately we're abroad (we met in his home country but later moved to mine) and here till mid January. If we checked into a hotel that would make things irredeemable, wouldn't it? But maybe it is already?

Would really really appreciate some help or advice because I don't know what to say to DH later (we haven't had a chance to talk privately) other than "your family is FUCKED" and I don't know that that is in any way helpful to him right now

Am I insane? This isn't right, is it? My family does not do this. I have no idea how to deal with it.

And sorry to go on but I am just so upset I can't stop typing. I want to cry but we're all sitting the living room pretending to be nice to each other and I know if I disappear to our room it will be another black mark against me and DH. This is horrible.

My councellor more than once recommended I right a letter to my F which I then destroy just to get thoughts out. I never did it because scared I'd actually send it! I came on here instead. SingingLily I'm sorry your feeling this way; your plans for Weds sound perfect.

CeliaBeliaBon Poor you, and DH, sound awful. Not in a position to give advice, although ideally you would leave, doesn't sound a goid environment for your DCs, but sounds complicated. Hope you can gently talk to your husband with lots of empathy (no, none of us are perfect but yes, families should support each other not behave like they are towards him) and hope you can agree on what's best for all of you.

Hi Celia, you poor thing that sounds absolutely dreadful and so horrifying when you realise, when you have to accept the truth you can't rationalize things away.
This is your opportunity for a turning point these people will never get any better, if you engage with them you will only ever be fighting with them, the only way for you to get a good outcome for yourself here is to cut them out of your lives. I know that sounds drastic but just sit with it for a while, could you work towards that outcome over time?
It doesn't matter if you get a black mark against your name, in fact I would try and collect as many black marks as I could in the hopes that they would banish me from their dreadful Kingdom, at which point I would run away joyfully and never look back.
🌻🌞😎🌞🌻

Yes check into a hotel, force the situation to the point where it becomes irredeemable, give as many people as you can a piece of your mind, tell them exactly what you think and then make good your escape.
What have you got to lose?
Ok I'm playing devil's advocate, that's probably way too drastic, but think about it anyway😊

Not sure it helps but I'm reading between the lines that your DH is probably the 'successful' one of the family and they are jealous of that perceived success, so its been turned into the negative personality traits that they are insinuating. This is dysfunctional as normal families, while perhaps quietly envious, celebrate the success of others and are genuinely pleased for them. MiL is using your DH as scapegoat, all his fault for the family not getting on, perhaps in part because he's not usually there, he's the oursider. I do think you all need to leave on Boxing Day at the latest - get a hotel booked so you have an escape - and don't tell them in advance, just announce it as you walk down with your suitcases so little chance for a big row, just a 'thank you for having us, but think best if we go now' and don't look back. Also don't think because its now calm, that it won't happen again, and your feelings are important so if its upsetting you then you have every right to say to your DH that you are not happy with the situation even if he insists he's okay about it, and also you need to be firm that its not something you want your DCs seeing as acceptable behaviour if you were to stay and put up with it.

@Winterwonderland10 Thank you for your response. I think he is, to some extent, being deliberately manipulative but it is like he does not realise that it is very transparent and obvious. For example, if my DM and I are going to the cinema he will get offended if we do not ask him if he wants to go and he will pretend he does want to go, knowing that it messes up our plans as we cannot all go and leave my DSis home alone. He hates the cinema and has not been for probably 15 years, but he has to pretend he wants to go so that he can make us think we cannot go. Then at the last minute he will be like "ugh I guess I'll have to stay here then". Sometimes I have called his bluff and arranged for my DB to be home so he has no excuse to not go and he will then admit he doesn't want to go. If we don't ask him explicitly if he wants to go he will wait until we are already on our way driving and ring us up annoyed that we didn't invite him, even though a) he could have mentioned it when we told him we were going and asked to come too b) he has never ever come with us. So, again, I call his bluff and tell him I will turn around and drive home to pick him up and then he realises he doesn't want to go actually. It happens anytime my DM wants to go out with me or my sisters. However he does not realise how predictable it is as it plays out every. single. time. He doesn't realise we know what he is doing.

He is also just manipulative. When I was younger if my sisters and I were arguing he would tell us he had chest pains and to stop misbehaving or he would have a heart attack. Again, every time. He still does it now.

I have read the Out of the Fog website and found it very useful but I wish I knew what kind of lense to view his behaviour from. I do think he has ASD as he has a lot of traits and is very similar to my DSis who has autism but I do think there is something else either instead or in addition to autism.

Not sure it helps but I'm reading between the lines that your DH is probably the 'successful' one of the family and they are jealous of that perceived success, so its been turned into the negative personality traits that they are insinuating.

Yes, this is probably true in terms of how they perceive him - he would disagree. Eg he had some sporting success as a teen which he sees as a failure (he got injured, couldn't quite get to the highest level) but which they certainly see differently.

Thank you very much for your posts, they help a lot. It's too big a thing to make a big break right now. I don't know what happens in the future. But DH and I just had a talk and I told him I was incredibly happy and proud to have him in my life, that my family all love him (they do, they think he's wonderful!), and that he must never believe anyone in his family who tells him everything is his fault. Which feels a bit better.

Tomorrow is another day, I guess. I'll be focusing on the kids and being civil but basically ignoring everyone else. Fortunately they are little so hopefully mostly oblivious, though both my SIL and BIL have been a bit inappropriately strict with my 3yo today - I mildly told them not to, and they stopped, but may have to tell them to properly fuck off if they do that tomorrow.