"But we took you to Stately Homes" November 2019 onwards thread

[toomuchtooold]

It's November 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
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August 2008
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October-November 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

I think I remember you Sanderling. Does your mum have paranoid personality disorder, and she's always worried about criminals, something like that? And you had a thread where lots of people didn't get how nasty someone who is constantly worried that the world is out to get them can be?

Anyway regarding the instagram posts, I wanted to say, because I am a foul-hearted cynic, that you could interpret her comment as a criticism of you (DS doesn't get out much and/or why aren't you dressing him appropriately for the weather so he is cold) so then if you say you were the same she takes that as a criticism delivered back at her. Or it's even possible she meant the comment in a nice way but then when you joined in she assumed you were trying to imply that there was something wrong with one's child feeling the cold. Or she just felt offended at you having opinions about your own childhood. Who the hell knows, eh. Sorry, why am I even trying to reason it out, that way madness lies. Youre absolutely right to block.

I've name changed as I've recently had a thread go badly wher I was told I was being unreasonable about family Christmas plans. But I've had some great support here before. I'm finding Christmas time quite hard. As although I have a wonderful partner I just feel such a gap where a loving involved family could be. Although there's so many times they haven't been there for me every year I hope they will want to spend time with me. Instead what happens is I either do spend time with them and still feel the gap because they're distant. Or I choose not to and feel like I'm missing out. I don't know what I want from posting I'm just crying to myself and don't really have perspective on what is normal anymore.

What I'm saying I think is I don't know how to stop expecting love and care. How do you do this? Without cutting off contact.

@Okbutno Id be wary of the general threads especially at this time of year. There’s a lot of emotions running high, and feelings can be a bit raw. You know you have to act quite decisively to protect yourself if your family is emotionally damaging.

The outofthefog.website is good for realigning your view of what’s going to be your normal. Don’t let others guilt you into playing a game you know you’ll lose. Take care.

Okbutno I know its incredibly hard but I think just try to stop looking at everyone else and assuming they're having an amazing time. I mean some will be but I think Christmas is pretty tough for many people, and actually a lot of families don't get on brilliantly at the best of times, so with the pressure to be having a wonderful time along with alcohol, stress of buying presents, other preparations, etc. there's a lot of disappointment. Don't get me wrong, I have moments when I really struggle and I basically wish I could go to sleep in November and wake up at the end of February, but I try to keep some perspective, and not spend too much time going over how miserable my childhood Christmases were because I have DCs of my own now so what's the point really (this is a good day for me, tomorrow I may well be crying about it). How's your DP's family? Can you focus on them rather than your own parents/siblings? I have massive guilt that my DM is on her own on Christmas day, but she lives too far for me to do the round trip to get her here, she doesn't drive and won't get the train over Christmas so that's the way it is. And I'm NC with my F right now which is sad but necessary, and we never saw him on Christmas day itself. We have DH's family here this Christmas, but I've struggled to motivate myself to do much preparation so very stressed about everything still to do! Does Nigella feel this way too?

I think Nigella has a whole ocean of sadness to contend with actually, she’s had a huge amount of grief in her life.

Yeah, bad example, sorry.

Sorry, I think I came over a bit sanctimonious there, I apologise @FreshStart01

Thanks for the replies. I was just feeling really shit earlier. My partner isn't close to his family and is an only child. We have a lovely Christmas together. It's just that kind of gap where family time should be. I do know not everyone is having a lovely time with their perfect family.

I've had a look at the fog website. I don't want to do armchair diagnosis but I really recognised lots of the behaviour from the avoidant personality disorder in my mum. I know avoidant behaviour can be a symptom of anxiety and depression. I have personal experience of anxiety and depression but not (I don't think) avoidance behaviour.

@Herocomplex I'm actually surprised at how unpleasant some of the replies were. Even after I'd said I was upset. I generally think of myself as a good person although we obviously all have flaws. I've been told in councelling I prioritise others too much. So then being told by many people I'm being self involved etc. Has really messed up my thinking. As I've started to distance myself a bit and try to make things less like I just jump to fit in. But then I'm now wondering if my expectation of regard from others is not reasonable. Like maybe I'm wrong in wanting my family to think about my feelings and actually I should be thinking more about them. Oh I don't even know... But I'm not sure this is a healthy place for me.

Okbutno I am guessing the people who responded in this way have a family who treat each other with mutually healthy regard in the first place. It is very hard for them to understand a lifetime of subtle (or less so) criticism and how that undermines your self-esteem and also how it makes you doubt your own judgement. I don't know the full context obviously but don't go throwing away all that hard work with your councellor because of a few people who can't possibly comprehend the full impact of a dysfunctional relationship with parents and/or siblings, because they haven't had that experience. Lucky them.

Just wanted to say hello and thank you to everyone on the Stately Homes thread. I've read through many comments and can absolutely relate to the pain of healing from the trauma of a dysfunctional family. I was very much the scapegoat of my disordered mother and enabler father. I married into a different sort of family. Not controlling like my family. But rather, completely disinterested.
I do believe, however, that I have started to heal, thanks to counselling, therapy, support and lots of reading. Trauma in childhood can cause such terrible damage, that people need to tell their stories, and get validation, in the hope that things can change for the better. This seems to be a good, safe place.

Thank you all.

I just shredded the growler, and I wonder if this is a common theme?
Christmas cards from my narcissistic parent, for the past nearly 15-years they have always been a photo of of them in some heroic pose atop a mountain whilst on holiday etc, it all seems a bit 'royal' often the photo is of the parent and the parents partner and I want to say 'oh look it's the pearly king and Queen'🙄😳

Thank you mumsnet!

Hi all. First post on this thread. Christmas has highlighted again how fucked up everything is. Siblings not talking to each other or their own children, hotel restaurants booked for Christmas day lunch where others want to stay at home alone and couldn't give a shit if they saw kids/grandkids. In fact they are a hindrance.
I don't really know what I am trying to say. But am so envious of people who have lovely families. All these videos of home comings for Christmas. I suppose all I can do is make it a lovely time for the kids, that is always my number 1 priority.
Thanks for reading.

My DM was almost certainly damaged by childhood trauma. Without going into too much detail, shortly after she was born my grandmother became ill and was hospitalised and my grandfather had to work (different times, no parental leave for things like that). DM and her siblings were then passed around various family members for a few years before returning home when my grandmother recovered.

I don't know the ins and outs really. But I'd imagine that would cause some damage don't you think? Though her siblings don't seem to have been as damaged by it. Also, I suspect my grandmother of being a narcissist so it was a whole heap of toxicity going on.

Part of me feels sorry for her really, but then she makes no attempt to adress the issues caused so why should I feel that way?

@ManonBlackbeak interesting, pretty similar set up for my own DM.

Part of me feels sorry for her really, but then she makes no attempt to adress the issues caused so why should I feel that way
I have sympathy for my parent's situation but that doesnt mean I am prepared to engage with them to my detriment, they deserve help and compassion but it cant come from me, that would cause me even more damage.
They deserve help, it's available and it's up to them to go find it, meanwhile I will go to ground until I know they are dead and it's safe to come out again!

Naughty I think the damage was done to my DM fairly early on, Ive always said that emotionally she is stuck at about five years old. I work with children and her behaviour and emotional responses to things remind me of that of a young child.

This was roughly the age she was when she returned to her parents.

My MIL who is a narcissist in terms of personality is emotionally stuck at around the age of six. She was born a decade or so after her eldest sibling. She was put on a pedestool by her overtly kind and nurturing mother and her taciturn Edwardian style dad who thought that children should be seen and not heard.

Ive always said that emotionally she is stuck at about five years old. I work with children and her behaviour and emotional responses to things remind me of that of a young child.

Sounds very similar to my mother, although she came from a lovely family. It's possible she had some kind of traumatic event that I'm not aware of though. My Dad did have a difficult childhood and he ended up becoming Mum's enabler.

IsThisYourSanderling Thanks for your comment. It's very hard to know what's best for her, or even if she'd be able to cope with treatments like chemo and radiotherapy. And if she was to get them, we'd be expected to step in to bring her to hospital every day. Ultimately it will only slow down the inevitable, it can't be cured.

It's very weird to think that all of the struggles and difficulties we've had to go through because of her behaviour are almost over. There's a way to go yet though, we were in her house today and found stacks of rubbish hidden away in cupboards and wardrobes, stacks of unopened mail going back years, and on some of the envelopes she has scribbled some really weird stuff, over and over again. We've been screaming for years that she's unstable and have got barely any support, so at least she's finally under observation.

What hurts the most is the fact that some people actually believe the person who is the perpetrator of so much pain. Why oh why don’t people take a step back and think, what could have happened that is so bad that you have to cut your own mother out of your life for good ?!! Seriously does anyone think that anyone would want to have that much stress and shit in your life 😞
I’m at the point where I just want to scream at all those that are ‘ still not getting it ‘ but then I get accused of being angry, I swear some people think I’m mad which is so so hurtful and almost too much to bear. If I was mad or ill then I certainly wouldn’t be able to do the job I do - again it’s not rocket science, I’m normal and balalanced just very damaged and sad.
It the worst kind of emotional abuse as is hidden from others - 😢
Anyhow I just wanted to say to all those going through similar, rise above it all and look after you. Spend time with those that are worthy of having you in their lives.

@ulterego that is very self centred to include a picture of yourself. It's like look at me I'm doing great. Glad you shredded it.

The pub night was last night and I had a really nice time catching up with people I had not seen in a while. My dad did not get that drunk. Funny think I noticed with him was when it came to deciding which pub people wanted to go to next he pretty much decided for every one even though people had said they didn't want to go to this place. He was very controlling and seemed offended/annoyed when they didn't want to go. Pretty much the same when I was growing up his way or no way.

this is amusing, in a way
I'd posted a while ago about my mother and her wish to get me "something special" for Christmas and my inclination to tell her there was nothing I wanted for her

however I maintain links with my mother because my DD, 8, lives her grandma, DD also is fascinated by history, so as we don't have the cash, I asked mother if she could get us family membership to Historic Scotland, so we could visit the old castles DD loves to go to

got an email from mother, who has singled us up to not Historic Scotland, but the National Trust for Scotland, which owns not old castles but the stately fucking homes she used to drag me round as a child that I hated (and still do)

if I didn't laugh I would weep