"But we took you to Stately Homes" November 2019 onwards thread

[toomuchtooold]

It's November 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
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October-November 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

That sounds like a disappointing lack of empathy Hero 😕
or should we not be surprised when people cant imagine that parents can be abusive and manipulative, or is it that most people think we should defer to them anyway?

"Atilla Its the lack and give and take that annoys me. It has to be her way and if anything isnt right she will get hysterical. Ive tried so many times over the years to tell her that it doesn't really matter, that it is one day and the whole point of Christmas is about family and it doesn't have to be perfect, but it always falls on deaf ears.

During the build up she will complain endlessly about how sttressful it is, how much she hates doing it etc but she won't let anyone help her. Part of me wonders if she just likes the drama".

Yes she likes the drama and your comments to her will always fall on deaf ears. Another poster wrote about her very similar sounding mother on another thread in Relationships. The consensus was that her mother is a narcissist who actively likes to martyr herself.

Don't do your bit here to further feed into it; back away from it. My MIL can martyr herself like a good un as well and its really a part of the "poor me, look at me" performance.

I think it is ulterego. And always being known for being a ‘sorter-outer’, I think she just thinks I can fix it, because I always do. She can’t imagine how it feels, as you say.

Has anyone confronted their parents before about their behaviour when they were children

To a certain extent I did do this. I tried to engage with them face to face but I couldn’t manage it so instead I sent them an email. I never received any response which told me everything I needed to know. I have had no contact since which was facilitated by them choosing that option. To be honest in hindsight the problem was that I actually needed them to change and there was simply absolutely no willingness to change, so I changed. It was so much easier to achieve.

Its the lack and give and take that annoys me. It has to be her way and if anything isnt right she will get hysterical. Ive tried so many times over the years to tell her that it doesn't really matter, that it is one day and the whole point of Christmas is about family and it doesn't have to be perfect, but it always falls on deaf ears

That has a real sound of an unmet childhood need going on and the attempt to get her children to fulfil that need. Which never happens.

@ihatethecold I listened to that book on audible and also found it great, like a lightbulb. I noticed that a sequel has come out too about putting boundaries in place to combat these types of parents (think it's called recovering from emotionally immature parents or something like that), waiting for my next audible credit to download that one.

Thanks all for your advice yesterday. I'm planning to gradually cut contact with my mum down to a minimum and Only respond to messages which aren't negative and moany, however even that is sometimes problematic as she lulls me in with a generic 'hows your week been?' which initially seems a fine question but then when I respond becomes all about her. Working on it though and one day I'll get there.

@myduckiscooked getting no response must've been so hard and in a sense unresolved but well done you for creating your own resolution, it takes their power away in my opinion.

I often wonder what my mums response would be if I confronted her about my childhood. I have no idea how she'd react but think it would probably be one of two ways, either reflect it back onto my and say it was my fault for being a difficult child (I wasn't) and how hard it all was for poor old her or flat out denial and make me feel crazy for how I remembered things. I don't think I ever would confront her though because I know in my head that how she behaved was completely unacceptable and awful and I don't think she'd ever acknowledge or show remorse so I think it'd be a waste of time.

Its dawned on me that initially I came to this thread for advice about my father but actually my mother is a much bigger issue in my life.

Hi
It's been eye opening reading all of the posts- maybe its not all my fault! My overall feeling is sadness that I don't feel my mum is my biggest support. I have 2 girls and have always told them how proud I am of them. My mum told me she didn't think I deserved any praise for just doing a job and has generally been dismissive of everything I do. She tries to cause trouble between me and my husband by lying about things he has said.

I have come to realise that she isn't going to change so I need to protect myself. Interestingly my husbands counsellor suggested she may be a narcissist and sent him home with a tick list which my mum scored highly on! I'm going to keep reading g the thread as it gives me a sense of belonging and makes me feel like I'm not alone
Thank you!

getting no response must've been so hard and in a sense unresolved but well done you for creating your own resolution, it takes their power away in my opinion

Sparkly I think I was looking for outcomes that really were not achievable. I think that was such a really helpful realisation for me that for whatever reason they cannot change. Usually that reason is a whole load of childhood “stuff” that they have no idea about and as a result cannot face.

Understanding, but even more so accepting that, before attempting dealing with emotionally immature parents would put anyone a mile ahead of where I started. I thought better of them, I know realise.

Make some space for you to be you.

All your words and stories have rub a major and very raw nerve.... but that one line, broke me.

All I've ever been, is that little girl so very desperate to have her parents love her (I've carried that into every other sphere of my life). I've only recently realised (through therapy) that I need to help that girl understand, and mourn, that that is never going to happen and it's not her fault. Only then, can I become the "me" that doesn't live her life trying to make that happen.

Even after years of therapy, I always resisted admitting that my parents emotionally neglected me and failed me in so many ways. I think I didn't want to see that it wasn't my fault, because if I could find what was wrong with me (my life narrative is that I was THE problem), I could change it and then I would be lovable. It's slowly dawning on me, that every decision and behaviour in my life, has been in some way for them to react - and still nothing.

They have cut me off again (for the umpteenth time in my life) because I started setting boundaries. It's happened so often, I'm pretty numb to the abandonment. This time it's different, because with self awareness, it harder to go backwards. I assume that with their age and health issues, I won't speak or see them alive again - but that is their choice.

Because my only concern now is trying to find who that "me" is. I know it will be an uphill climb, as in the last few years, I have completely destroyed my life. But I'm trying to look at it, that with this self awareness and very, very small baby steps, I can rebuild, but parenting and loving myself (I doubt I could do worse than they did!).

Thank you for this thread. I have been on mn a while and never clicked on it, as I didn't understand the title. This week in therapy, I broke down being confronted again with how much rage is bubbling under the surface and then today actually deciding to see what this link was about, re-affirms my belief in serendipity. It's never too late!

maybe its not all my fault
it certainly isnt, your mum should be on your side, bigging you up not putting you down, she should be EXAGGERATING your achievements!!!
I wonder how she'd feel if you mirrored her behavior, trivialized things that she considers important?
Mix up some her own medicine and serve it up to her at every opportunity, I would, you cant lose, she'll either shape up or lose her shit and then you can tell her to fuck off for ever.
(I know, it's not quite that easy)

They have cut me off again (for the umpteenth time in my life)
that sounds very painful for you :( I'm so sorry
rest assured we here...we 'get' you :)

Hi @longsigh welcome! 💐

Your DM must be pretty heavy-duty if she’s come up in your DH’s therapy. It’s not usual for therapists to suggest diagnosis for people they haven’t met, so I’m guessing you’ve got some fairly hair-raising stories to tell.

If you haven’t already done so go and have a read of the outofthefog.website

Hope you find what you’re looking for here.

@sparklychristmaslights don’t feel you have to respond to messages as soon as you get them either, leave them for a while. It’s good practice in setting boundaries that you don’t just jump when they tell you to.

Thanks @Herocomplex it's nice to hear that I'm not the mad one, I have looked at the outofthefog website
I always come away from seeing her thinking that I could have done better or it's some how all my fault but my research is beginning to show me that its probably not!

@ulterego I' like the idea but I'm not sure how she would react to that- the last meeting we had did not go well and I did say she needed to take some responsibility for our strained relationship but she wasn't keen 🤔 At the moment she and my dad are coming for Christmas lunch but wont stay long because apparently my dad hates it at my house and can't have a decent conversation with anyone apart from my brother and my DH. I'm so tempted to tell them not to bother but the conversation I would need to have scares me...

Hi all
I’ve been directed here! Hope you are all well

I have told my Dsis something mean DM said about her and it has really got to Dsis and upset her. I really should not have repeated it. I really don’t know what to do now going forward. This is my thread

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/3772123-Family-relationship-issue

Hi Longsigh

I also thought your parents, in particular your mother, are heavy going toxic batshit of the first order given that she is mentioned in your H's therapy sessions.

Its not you, its your mother. Women like your mother also cannot do relationships so need a willing enabler to help them; in this case this is your dad. Theirs is a dysfunctional and codependent relationship.

I would certainly cancel their upcoming visit to yours citing norovirus or some other illness. These people were not good parents to you when you were growing up and they have not changed. It also does your kids no favours either to be around or in contact with such people. You seem to be very much mired still in fear (that is all too apparent), obligation and guilt re them and these are but three of many damaging legacies such people leave. I also think you've been trained by your parents, particularly your mother, to serve her and therefore put your own self and needs dead last. You've been conditioned not to confront them either and I can imagine you are very afraid of your mother's rage.

Such people too never apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions. Any attempt to appeal to their better nature will fail precisely because they do not have a better nature.

she and my dad are coming for Christmas lunch but wont stay long
and you say that like it's a bad thing...
(you dont have to put up with this shit)

Hi Menora

Your mother is a toxic person and this is who she really is. Its not your fault your mother is like this and both your sister and you did not make her that way (her own family did that to her). What if anything do you know about her own childhood, I ask as that often gives clues.

FWIW I think you were right to tell your DS what her mother said about her, such things have a nasty habit of coming out in any event. How are relations now between you and your sister?. It also appears that your mother is triangulating between you and your sister which is a behaviour that narcissists do to their victims.

Re this comment from your other thread:-
"DM’s issue is that she feels neglected by Dsis and that Dsis is responsible for DM having a crap relationship with the grandchildren"

Such people like your mother always but always look for a scapegoat and or someone to blame here. Its always everyone else's fault but their own. It is indeed your mother's fault that she has a crap relationship with the grandchildren. Given too how your mother treats your sister is it any wonder therefore that your sister has kept her children away from her. Your sister has put down a boundary here and your mother does not like that one bit.

The only people who tend to bother with such toxic relatives like your mother are those who have been specially trained i.e. the now adult children of those toxic people. What are your own boundaries like with regards to your mother?. Pretty poor I suspect.

Women like your mother as well Menora cannot do relationships at all so I was not really all that surprised to see that your dad and she are no longer together. The men in their lives become or are as narcissistic as they are or are otherwise discarded. He has also failed your sister and you here by abjectly failing to protect you both from her malign influences.

Thanks so much for replying to me I appreciate it

Dsis and I are fine. We love each other and care about each other no toxic RS at all. But Dsis is very upset. I’m upset for Dsis

DM’s childhood was not bad but is the key to why she is like this. A treasured only child to older parents her DM was very anxious due to losing a sibling and post war. DM moved 200 miles when she was very young because she felt her DM smothered her, then regretted it ever since and has never stopped banging on about it or done anything about it except for regret it verbally. DGM was widowed in her 70’s and then became exactly like my DM is now. Without my grandfather she was a complete clingy needy nightmare

DM met my controlling abusive immature damaged DF and married him. Between them they fought constantly for 20 years and there is a lot more to it with a child abuser who was forgiven

DM always has to have someone to focus her dissatisfied life on and it is now Dsis. I try to shield/deflect this away from Dsis.

I’m not in FOG exactly, but DM has barely no other living soul in her life and this feels like I am trapped trying to manage her until ‘the end’. I see her for what she is. I just don’t always manage it well

My DF is an awful if not worse parent than her
I think this is why we still have DM around as she is ‘better than nothing’ so to speak and this toxic behaviour has very slowly built up - she wasn’t always like this to be really honest. When my DC were little she was completely different. But the years have not been kind to her and she’s got worse and worse.

My boundaries are probably what you would see as LC. I don’t call her on the phone anymore or take phone calls as she monologues at you. I see her once a month for a short period of time. I send her photos and DC updates. DSis is exactly the same. But it’s not enough for her. And she’s back lashing against our boundaries really

Hello!

Over the last year I have come to suspect that my childhood might have been abusive. I have read some of the posts on here and hope that I’m doing the right thing by just plunging in so to speak!!

I have never spoken to anyone in rl except my dh and then only bits really. I am 46 and have 2 dc.

I do not think that my mother is narcissistic as many of the posters here feel there mothers are. My mother was just cold and completely unreachable. She was shut off from me. She never once stood up for me or attempted to protect me from my father who I suspect was abusive to me. She was extremely critical though. The criticism from my mother was constant and often I hear her voice in my head telling me how I am doing things wrong. She was also a big sulker, if I disagreed with anything (often clothes she picked out, I was not allowed to make my own decisions) she would sulk for ages! In fact I don’t remember much communication with my mother except criticism and sulking! I spent most of my childhood looking at her back! No advise, no hugs, no bed time stories, I wasn’t even told to brush my teeth or wash. I’m sure I was smelly at school! As a young child I remember often feeling scared at night and having nobody to go to.

Now my fathers turn.... my father was over bearing at best really. A very opinionated man despite his lack of education. He would often go into rants at me about a subject I wasn’t really interested in. Shouting in my face, poking my chest (I still hate anyone poking me, even my children). That part is hard to explain. During the rants I would shut down and stand there until it stopped, otherwise he would get more wound up. Sometimes I would be slapped or kicked during these rants. It was never about something I had done, just something my father was stressed about at the time.

I was constantly ridiculed. This was my fathers idea of toughening me up. Normally I was fat or stupid, often sung to me! Weird! Ohh fatty bum bum etc..... I was probably under weight tbh. And I would have to laugh at this. I would be tripped up ( oh how funny) pushed over (hilarious to him) etc...

My mother just felt sorry for herself through all this.

But I get confused. Often my father was there for during difficult times, he could be loving and warm as well and I loved him very much. My parents were all I had.

This is the first time I have written this down and it feels good. I have so much else to say I could go on and on.

Best wishes to everyone who feels the need to post here

Oh... and what is grey rock?? 🤣