"But we took you to Stately Homes" November 2019 onwards thread

[toomuchtooold]

It's November 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
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October-November 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Macnabber You will never be able to 'win' with these people, you just have to focus on the relationships you have with the family you created and your friends who all know that you are not at all cold. What you have written makes it sound to me like you've gone above and beyond with your parents and siblings (despite everything they've thrown at you), and there's really nothing more that you can do.

Mcnabber,
I read your thread and honestly I don't think you even need us because you have great instincts, you told your brother to fuck off on the phone and when he complained you blocked him, you've already got the moves kiddo😎
You just need to get rid of the guilt, it's payback time now, come to momma the medicine is ready, I made it especially for you 😈

Reading your thread, you're the good one, the clever one, the nice one, the decent upstanding one, they hate the fact that you are better than them and so they do what they can't undermine you, crush you and bring you down to their level, but they also all want a piece of you they want to benefit from your talents and abilities.
I think the best way to punish them is to remove yourself completely from their lives so they don't get the satisfaction of crushing you and they don't get to benefit from any of the good things that you have, good things that they have all tried to take from you.
Walk away and don't look back, hold your head up high😊

*do what they can to undermine you

Hello Macnabber! What the others said - you sound like you have really good, healthy instincts regarding your family.

Regarding grey rocking has anyone else found that it got harder when they had kids? That's when the wheels basically fell off for me. Up until then I'd been very neutral with my mother, always calm, kept everything surface... but you can't be like that with little kids, you have to really talk to them and show emotion and stuff. That was her "in".

but you can't be like that with little kids, you have to really talk to them and show emotion and stuff. That was her "in"

That is the problem. You are trying to model functional relationships for your children but you can only model functional relationships in functional relationships. My teen daughter has now spotted the dysfunctions for herself in her grandparents relationships’ both sides unfortunately which is sad.

Hi all, haven't posted for a bit but have a been reading the posts regularly.

I had my first counselling session and although we didn't jump in deep to my relationships with my parents, it was a great starting point and felt good to be 'heard'.

With my mum, I'm not wanting to go zero contact for one reason and another, but I do need to come up with some sort of strategy for keeping her negativity at bay. Usually at least every other day I'll get messages from her which I find have a massive impact on my own mood. She will generally moan about anything she can, play the victim and just generally be so negative (usually day to day moans about how tired she is, her jobs rubbish, everything is crap but every so often more extreme. she's even messaged me about self harm etc before which I just found extremely distressing - I'm pretty certain she doesn't actually do this though). I find it really hard to let these messages bounce off me without letting them get to me. Does anyone else have a similar thing with their parent? How do you deal with it? Would grey rocking be possible over text?

Hi @sparklychristmaslights glad to hear you’re getting going with counselling.

Why not block her? She can leave a voicemail still. You can decide your boundaries, you’re not prepared to deal with the feelings the texts are giving you, so just don’t read them.

It sounds really horrible, but it’s not. Why should you be made to feel crap? It’s not fair and you don’t have to tolerate it.

If she asks why you’re not responding you’re quite entitled to say that you don’t want her to contact you. She won’t like it, but that’s not the point, YOU’LL. feel lighter. And that’s what matters now.

As said Sparkly I would just block her, if she comments say you need to protect your mental health from negativity, or some such vague reason (easy for me to say I know)

Well Christmas is around the corner, and this always turns my DM into an even bigger nightmare than usual. Everything HAS to be perfect and done her way. A chilled out and relaxed Christmas eating and drinking crap and watching rubbish on TV whilst in PJ's is totally unaccaptable in her world. She will dress up the nines like some 1950's housewife and pretend she's actually a really good cook and prance about the kitchen like a cross between Nigella Lawson and Mary Berry, we are all expected to dress in our Sunday best and partake in stupid old fashioned party games around the dinner table. She will present a Christmas pudding which was actually purchased from a supermarket and we will all be expected to guffaw at it...

Its like she's acting out her own fantasy of what Christmas should be like and everyone must fall into line. One year she had a huge meltdown because my DB was staying and she couldn't get the bed clothes to look right. Last year DF and I decided to go to the local social club on Xmas eve (we asked her to come to but she refused) and she flew into a sulk and didn't speak to us for the rest of the night because she'd wanted us all at home with her to act out her fantasy family Christmas.

Then on Xmas day she blew up at all of us, DB, DF and DSIL because we decided we wanted to pop over to see some relatves who live nearby in the evening. She actually chased us down the street to say that we were rude! Once again she had the option to come with us but didnt want to. DB was so upset he didn't speak to her for a week, and told her why but she still refused to apologise to him or me or DF but did aplogise to DSIL because I think she was worried her mask had slipped in front of her and needed to save face.

She and her siblings very much dictate the Christmas of out extended family, they are so enmeshed with one another.

Fair to say Im not looking forward to the festive season! Any tips greatfully received!

Can someone tell if they've been blocked on your phone? Or do they just go straight to voicemail as if your phone was off? That would be ideal. Just try and gradually be harder to get hold of rather than disappearing on her and you shouldn't get too much push back.

@myduckiscooked that's a good point about modelling normal relationships. I sometimes felt sorry for my mum, being aware that I was basically freezing her out of a relationship like that with me (and the kids to an extent), and wondering whether I was to blame for how strained our relationship was. But any time when she was in a good mood, if I ever let my guard down, she'd squirrel away what she found out about me and use it as a stick to beat me with the next time I was out of favour. I couldn't see that at the time though because my overwhelming feeling was... revulsion, I have to say. Being near my mother made my skin crawl since I don't know how long. And I just bounced between the revulsion and guilt, not really reflecting on how badly she was behaving - typical codependent, something's off here, how can I change myself to fix it, you know?

Manon

I recently read of a mother on another thread on this site who acted just like this re Christmas as well, think the overall consensus was that this person was batshit.

Stay away from the cray cray. I would be elsewhere for the festive season and nowhere near your mother (and for that matter your dad who is likely to be her willing enabler here).

Atilla Its the lack and give and take that annoys me. It has to be her way and if anything isnt right she will get hysterical. Ive tried so many times over the years to tell her that it doesn't really matter, that it is one day and the whole point of Christmas is about family and it doesn't have to be perfect, but it always falls on deaf ears.

During the build up she will complain endlessly about how sttressful it is, how much she hates doing it etc but she won't let anyone help her. Part of me wonders if she just likes the drama.

Oh crikey Manon I think that’s awful and I completely understand how that behaviour makes you feel. So familiar.

I’m pretty sure it’s just like your phone is off @toomuchtooold. Although it doesn’t stop them phoning you using another handset if they work it out. I don’t answer any unknown numbers, I google it, it usually gives you a clue who it is, then you can all them back.

Manon is she nearby or do you need to travel and stay over? If the latter, it can help to have your own transport so you can get out if necessary, and see if you can arrange to meet up with friends? Can you stay in a hotel?

For the day, can you prewarn your DH to stick by your side so she has less chance to get you on your own?

I don't have DH sadly. Im very single, so its just me. DB has in laws who are nice, normal people and he can spend it with them. Actually I remember the first time DB announced he was spending Xmas day with them (he alternates year by year to make it fair), my DM's reaction was like he'd just announced that he was dying or something.

Thankfully no, I don't need to stay over. Silver liniings and all that.

Hi, everyone. I am back again. I always feel kind of guilty coming back after reading the posts on here as it always seems like the things I write about are so much more milder but I know thoughts like that are not in the spirit of this thread.

I am feeling quite down this week. To briefly sum up my situation I am living at home after university. It is hard to sum up the problem with my family situation as I feel like I still haven't accepted it but going off what others on here have said in response to my situation my parents were emotionally neglectful when I was growing up and my Dad is emotionally abusive. To sum them both up though I will say I feel like they are very passive as parents and our family life seems so chaotic as we are a large family and there are always arguments so I feel like they have no time or energy to be interested in me as I am their eldest.

I graduated recently and looking around at my friends with their families I just felt sad. My parents complained about going the whole time and they were so busy arguing before the ceremony that I was late and was nearly not allowed into the ceremony. Friends had their parents, siblings, grandparents there who had taken time off of work and travelled there to see them graduate and showered them in flowers and I had just my parents there who didn't even want to be there. My siblings didn't care. I haven't received any graduation cards from any of my entire family or extended family. Part of me is like you are an adult, get over it, nobody cares about graduations, they are not a big deal. But when every other person in your class is being made a fuss of I just felt sad in comparison. I am pretty sure my DM only went so she could post about it on Facebook and brag about me getting a first.

I am now feeling down about Christmas. I hate days like graduation days, birthdays and Christmas as they feel so heavy with the weight of expectation and they always fall short no matter what. My DM has told me she cannot be bothered to buy presents this year so will just give money. I know this is not a big deal and it is fortunate that we can even be given money, but I feel sad for my siblings not having anything to unwrap. I also know that when my DM has not gotten presents she approves of she gets all angry and passive aggressive. I go out of my way to buy my parents presents that they will enjoy. I spend ages planning them and ordering things online and visiting different towns, I spend more than I can afford. The passive aggressive side of me just wants to return her presents and give her money too. To be honest, my grievance with the situation has nothing really to do with Christmas, I just hate the passiveness of it, I just wished my parents cared about something beyond just being miserable all the time. My DM told me she "hates Christmas" but she won't do anything about it, won't organise anything or plan anything to make it different. I feel like the responsibility is on me to try and make it better for her, better for my siblings, etc. I have had a difficult year and I just try and make things better and lighter and I feel constantly dragged down by their negativity. Every single day there are arguments. But I feel guilty for feeling like this.

Sorry for the rant.

manon that sounds utterly exhausting!! What a nightmare. I'm also dreading this Christmas as.i have my DS and my M will try take over and shove her presents in his face. I can just see it now.

Has anyone confronted their parents before about their behaviour when they were children? Explained how it's effected you now? Curious to know how it went

@ihatethecold thank you for the book suggestion of adult children of emotionally immature parents. I'm 3 pages in and already can relate to so much.

This stood out and rings true to me and my personality.
Apparently there are 2 different types of children to emerge from emotionally immature parenting: internalizers and externalizers

Reference from the book:

"I describe the internalizer personality in greater detail. This is the personality type most likely to engage in self-reflection and personal growth, and therefore most likely to be drawn to this book. Internalizers are highly perceptive and sensitive, with strong instincts to engage and connect with other people."

I imagine most of us if not all on here are internalizers

You’re welcome @Winterwonderland10
Also a big issue with internalisers is we don’t look after our own needs very well , we give too much of ourselves to externalisers. Which can be very damaging.

I wanted to shout Hallelujah when I recognised myself and other family members in this book.

www.goodreads.com/book/show/23129659-adult-children-of-emotionally-immature-parents

Yes me too. It's like this is why I am the way I am. I've always been made to feel bad for being sensitive by my parents/exes but actually it's just who I am and the effect that my childhood has had on me. Brings alot of peace

It can also help you bring in better boundaries once you understand the personalities better

Sorry Manon not very useful advice for me!
Could you get norovirus the day before?

namechange I remember that post-uni period - you're in that phase of life where you know how to manage them, you know what to expect - but living there will be slowly draining away your energy, as it's so bloody miserable. Have you got prospects of getting away? You will feel tons better once you get away. In the meantime I would focus your efforts on yourself tbh - can you line up some meetups with friends for the Christmas period, do volunteering, go to church for the Christmas service? I think you need to be out among normal people, remind yourself that the rest of the world is not like this. And it's not your job to save your family.

Has anyone confronted their parents before about their behaviour when they were children

I haven't... there's a big bit about it in Susan Forward's book, Toxic Parents. I think my mother would just have nodded and smiled and "I'm sorry you feel that way"d and then doubled down on the nastiness tbh.

Re confronting your parents, they react badly if you try to hold them to account, it's a threat to their power, they either counter attack or they will trivialise and dismiss you.
Confronting them can be a useful technique if you want to 'flush them out' ie make them do something that gives you grounds to cut them out of your life forever.
These people are adversaries they are not in your corner, they are not on your team

I had a nice afternoon out with a friend this week who I’d previously told about my parental issue, I thought she’d understood, but she suggested I phone them and try to sort it out for Christmas. Really wish I hadn’t told her now, she just doesn’t get it, despite being sympathetic. It’s hard enough without external guilt.

So a word of support and solidarity to all of you trying to keep your head above water when the world seems to be intent on drowning you. Keep the faith.

@namechange2311 I think this situation is very hard for you, you’re just coming to terms with your position. I hope you’re quietly making plans to get on your lifeboat, and building a future for yourself. After uni is very tricky, you’re just getting started. Next year can be very different. Your siblings are getting older, you can start to lean on each other a bit more. Things will get better, although it might not seem like it yet. Keep checking in here.