"But we took you to Stately Homes" November 2019 onwards thread

[toomuchtooold]

It's November 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
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December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
May-August 2019
August-October 2019
October-November 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

dontknowdontknow Keep posting here if it helps. Get some sleep, the tree can wait. Do Christmas for your DCs and just get through it one day at a time.

Winterwonderland Your F is a bully, and he is bullying your DS. I think it is unusual for a child his age to articulate it like that, so definitely take him seriously.

@Ulterego i posted earlier this week about a comment he made to me an he "just joking" but i was not in a good place and snapped and left the situation. He did apologise in the end.

@FreshStart01 yes for him to come out with that surprised me. Usually he adores my F. So thought it was odd he said it. I feel awful now that im letting this pass to my DS

Thanks @FreshStart01 I slept all afternoon which is usually how I feel when they come. I sort of shut down. Feel overwhelmed with how much to do today. Have a good day all. This is such a hard time of year.

Just saying hi and checking in. Hugs to you all at this emotive time of year.

It's nearly three years since I've been no contact with my folks and have finally been able to disclose CSA as well as all the other stuff.

I've had a lot of therapy and currently in the midst of another course: 24 sessions by the NHS.

Still struggling with the fog. Hoping it's going to get easier x

Winter, it's good that he apologized, could he be trained? or is that just too much like hard work 🙄
Hi Shedid😊 the fog is very strong I agree, 24 NHS therapy sessions sounds good how are you finding it?

Winterwonderland see to be honest I wouldn't worry about trying to figure out whether and to what extent your dad is having a long lasting effect on your wee boy's mood. I think it doesn't matter if your boy can shrug it off or not. It's unkind, and he shouldn't be doing it. I think that you should tell him to stop it whenever he starts, and if he doesn't stop it, I think you need to leave/ask him to leave. And I think you need to be consistent in this. I think there is a lot of truth in that Issendai post that Ulterego quoted from - with people like this you can't expect much. You're unlikely to get your dad to see your point of view. But if you are consistent with consequences, he'll probably stop it to keep the peace.

I wouldn't worry too much about standing up for yourself either - I suspect that conflict has been framed to you as something violent, something that involves fighting and winning, or giving in and capitulating, and I think that that framing comes from your parents who put you in the position of the scapegoat, and you don't need to see conflict with them in terms of winning and losing, or standing up to them. For example instead of standing up to my mother I choose to stand far, far away from her, where I can't hear her. Does that mean I'm a coward? Maybe. If I were to get in a fight with her, could I guarantee that I would hold my nerve, or would I be so overcome with childhood-instilled fear that I would struggle to get my words out? Very likely, but that doesn't mean she is right and I am wrong, it just means that she's better at handling violent and aggressive interactions than I am. Well big surprise, that's her way of communicating to the world. I much prefer humour, finding shared interests with people, and politeness. I am much, much better at making friends than she is. She is just better than fighting. So I choose not to meet her on a battlefield where she will win, you know?

dontknowdontknow is that you done with parental visits for the whole of Christmas then?
I know you feel bad now and I don't want to minimise that but you are not going to see any of your dysfunctional family this Christmas, it's going to be you and the family you made. That is awesome. Don't think they're all going to be sat there at Christmas having a wonderful time without you. They'll be having one of those fake wonderful times where everyone is waiting for someone else to kick off (and because you and your family aren't there, someone else will have to be the scapegoat). Your mother said those things about your DD because she is - forgive me - a total cow. And that is what people like this do. We should do a bloody bingo card of shit things they do and say at Christmas, honestly. Mine would have been like

Age inappropriate/breakable/noisy presents for the kids
Presents for the kids in a style or theme that you hated as a child
Messages regarding who is sibling of the year sent via value of presents (i.e. your GC sibling gets a new iPhone, you get a regifted bar of soap (bonus points if it was part of your present to them last year)
Presents sending you a message about your unacceptability (diet books, the little book of calm if you've been enforcing boundaries recently)

Negative comments about your house (bonus points if unfavourably compared to cleanliness/decor/location of GC sibling's house)

Concern trolling about your DP or kids (again, bonus points if compared to GC's DP/kids; 2x multiplier if you're the mum, it's your mum, and the comments include the implication that you're failing in some aspect of your wife/motherly duties that she considers to be yours and you consider to be yours and your DP's jointly, such as childcare or washing. Additional 3x multiplier if she addresses this concern directly to your DC or DP and tries to get them to agree)

Any sign that your enabler parent has been warned to mind their Ps and Qs (enabler dad who has never been known to refuse a beer at Christmas refuses beer etc)

"Forgets" any of the rules of your house that are different to theirs (shoes off/on, smoking etc) despite being reminded multiple times

Something that you really like gets broken or goes missing only to turn up days or weeks after Christmas in a place that you never put it in and also looked in before

I can't think of any others. Had all of them though!

@Ulterego unfortunately i don't think he can be trained. He apologizes to keep the peace in the family. Especially to keep the peace with my mum and not listen to go on i think.

@toomuchtooold thank you, yes you're right. It's more about boundary setting than worrying about the impact. I've never had them with my parents but i've been working on it in therapy. But thank you for the advice, its helpful. Funny thing is i think i'm the scapegoat now im putting in boundaries, however i was the golden child growing up.

Had my last counselling session until the new year today. Went well, i feel shes a good fit for me. Only had 3 sessions so far but i'm not holding back which i've done in sessions in the past with other people. I think i'm ready to get to the root and sort this all out. Feeling positive for 2020!

@toomuchtooold also love your christmas bingo! I may play this year in my head and have a little laugh to myself!

@Ulterego thanks. It's hard to be honest. I feel very raw and fragile when we finish but also relieved that I can talk about it and process it. The therapist is excellent

He apologizes to keep the peace in the family
ah, the old 'say whatever will shut them up and then carry on doing what suits ME' technique.
Go nuclear then, bomb the bastard (not literally)

Sorry to turn up again just to post - I do read this thread most days, but struggle to get time to reply (plus there are others on here with much better advice than I could give).

My DM is about to blow her top again... I can feel it coming.

I'm really frustrated at myself. She plays nice for long enough that I begin to confide in her, and then the slow decline into an almighty argument commences and she then uses everything I have said against me.

Latest decline has been on it's way for some weeks; but it's going to accelerate now because I have suggested that we may return to the Middle East for another expat posting for a few years.

We actually see her less now we are back in the UK than we did when we were expats because she liked the drama of telling everyone that she was "flying to the Middle East to help my daughter with my grandkids". So we literally see her the same number of times per year, but she stays for 3 hours rather than 3 days, despite being less than an hour away.

I have told her about the potential relocation because she would not take being caught off guard very well at all, so can't wait to tell her once it's all finalised.

She immediately attacked my DH and his family, while trying to be calm and rational about the potential move. Then went off on a big rant about how I don't send her pictures when we are on holiday like my brother (golden child and major gold digger). I have three kids so once I've wrangled them into bed, the last thing I want to do is keep up a photo diary for DM.

Too much crap to go into, but the playing the victim has already started, and the feeling pushed out because my in-laws are coming for christmas (she's invited, she just doesn't like them).

We've also decided not to send our kids to stay with her, because of her negative influence (she favours our eldest). She's currently pushing for her to come and stay over Christmas, and I'm just deflecting by saying we have plans the day after.

ARGH - it will never end will it? I'm sick of having to grey rock all the time, of having every scrap of info saved up and thrown back at me when I'm least expecting it.

All the same I'm not ready to go NC, I know she was heavily damaged by a VERY abusive mother, and so I'm a little reluctant to completely sever contact (yet).

Sigh, I think I need to download toxic parents and have another read of it.

Hi again all.

I had been happy with very low contact with my mother. I'm still a bit delicate because i havent found a job so financially i'm hanging on by the skin of my teeth. But, i was feeling hopeful because i did a really good interview, and mum was insistent on meeting up so i agreed.

At first, we got on, had a nice day, she bought me a dress for christmas. Then just before we were due to leave the place she had to bring up why i hadnt been talking to her. I did my best to be tactful but hold my ground but her main point was that she was entitled to her opinions and wasnt willing to change her ways. I replied that i was simply asking for the same luxury! Did not compute. Im just being 'nasty'. In the end i think we both got sick of going round in circles and patched it up.

Later that night however i felt worse, not better. For the first time in a while i was up for hours in the night having an anxiety attack about the overnight visit at her house we'd planned, and i suddenly felt so negative about the interview i'd done :( my friends have done a sterling job bouying me up and meeting my mum for a few hours was enough to ruin it.

I cancelled the visit and immediately felt better.

I dont feel like mum really has my best interests at heart; i dont know if im imagining it but it felt like the visit was to 'check up' on me, see why i was being a silly girl, buy me things as manipulation, give me a smackdown and put me back in line.

I KNOW she doesnt believe i'm autistic either. My sister is, shes allowed to be, its her claim to fame. Mums an EXPERT in autism as a result. She CANNOT have missed mine due to my excellent masking behaviour, that's not in the script

My mother's heavily damaged too. We have to protect ourselves from (further) damage though, where possible. Our abused parents don't have the right to perpetuate the cycle upon us. The most powerful and courageous thing we can do is break the chain. Well done for deciding not to send your own children to her. You are protecting them. Protect yourself too, remind youself you deserve it.

I dont feel like mum really has my best interests at heart; i dont know if im imagining it but it felt like the visit was to 'check up' on me, see why i was being a silly girl, buy me things as manipulation, give me a smackdown and put me back in line.

I really doubt you're imagining it! It's a disturbing fact to come to terms with, and the brainwashing fights against your intuition here seeing the dynamic for what it is.

I KNOW she doesnt believe i'm autistic either. My sister is, shes allowed to be, its her claim to fame. Mums an EXPERT in autism as a result. She CANNOT have missed mine due to my excellent masking behaviour, that's not in the script

Change sister for brother and my situation's very similar! I wouldn't say it's his claim to fame though, according to my mother's script his autism is more a different rod for him to be beaten with. Mother believes she's an expert in just about everything. It's shocking looking back how little she informed herself genuinely, especially as my brother got his diagnoses age 6/7. No real understanding or support for either of us really. Genuine understanding and supportiveness don't seem to be in her repertoire sadly.

I still have no neurodiversity diagnosis, I haven't been assessed. May I ask whether you have been yet?

Screw your mother's script. I'm sorry.

And well done for cancelling the visit! :)

Whoops, first post was to @Expat1986, then to @Pukeworthy, in case not clear.

Hello. I was pointed to this thread by some kind posters on a thread I started. I had a very difficult and stressful childhood with mental and physical abuse. I have three siblings all with either MH issues and drug and alcohol related problems. My mother was a violent alcoholic. She now doesn't drink but is still a narcissist and very difficult. Christmas was always awful as it triggered her and there would always be a violent outburst on the day or xmas eve.

If you want to know more about what's made me realise i need to go low contact and have more counselling, my thread is here

Thank you for listening.

I havent, @BodySaysNO - my masking is so good i'd be laughed out of a GPs office, the waiting list for...anything, is so long and tbh, its not the kind of thing i want employers to know about so i dont want anything down on paper. I dont believe i need any help, either, or not the type theg can give anyway - i manage, more or less. Arguable as to how this affects my career...but i think knowing it helps and if i can just get my foot in the door in the right role....

I'm sick of having to grey rock all the time, of having every scrap of info saved up and thrown back at me when I'm least expecting it

I totally get what you are saying about grey rocking being exhausting. I was doing a version of it (although I did not know that was what it was) for a while with my brother but I found it very tiring and upsetting too. I probably wasn’t doing it right though.

@Ulterego that is exactly it! He loves to have an easy life to be on his phone, gambling, watching sport, going out to the pub. God forbid anything breaks his peace.

Hi Macnabber, welcome to the thread. I'm sorry you had such an awful childhood, your M sounds horrendous, and all credit to you for making the life you have now. You got some great comments on the other thread, I'm guessing most are at least lurking on this one! I hope it helps.

@mcnabber I read your other thread. I'm really sorry you're going through this. Feels like your parents are quite emotionally immature and yes using your brother as a flying monkey. Also using passive aggressive behaviour. This is is so helpful I've been on here a few years on and off just reading and it's great.

I probably wasn’t doing it right though.

Grey rocking IS stressful. I didn't realise it had a name either, but my DH was really the one who said I had to stop divulging anything my F could pick up on to have an opinion on and make me feel criticised. That didn't mean conversations were anymore pleasant though, quite the opposite because my F's anger grew at the extreme lack of effort on my part. He mirrored it to a certain extent as well, giving me no information either so conversations were short and terse, but he would still manage to get something in that would wind me up (i.e."I suppose you're still buying all your furniture new" by which he meant what horrible, materialistic and bad for the environment people we are, or "I suppose your two have these ridiculously expensive smart phones" by which he meant they are spoilt and entitled). I would come off the phone reeling and anxious, deep in FOG.

I've read about grey rocking before and there is no doubt that it works but I agree, it is stressful.

A few years ago, if i went through a period of grey rocking my mother, she would ALWAYS send me something in the post. Money or a gift, so of course I felt duty bound to call her to say thank you and sound grateful, which cracked away at the grey rock and always left me feeling uncomfortable.

She doesn't do that any more and I don't call apart from over the summer when my sister was at rock bottom after a terrible alcoholic phase and I tried to get all the siblings and my parents to talk about it and share information so we could help her.

That dried up and ended up with my sister being angry and my parents and siblings siding with her and saying that as I had no idea what it was like to be a single mum with a drinking problem I should stop being so judgemental. It was judgemental apparently to express worry that she was drinking first thing in the morning then driving to her job in a school. I unfollwed my sister on SM after that so I could avoid the drama she posted, another form of grey rocking I suppose. But then I got a message from her saying it was awful I had unfollowed her because she was obviously a big disappointment to me and I was a cold person unlike her, family meant something to her but not me.