"But we took you to Stately Homes" November 2019 onwards thread

[toomuchtooold]

It's November 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
May-August 2019
August-October 2019
October-November 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@myduckiscooked Thank you for your response. I definitely feel like I have had to learn to predict how he will react and it has meant I am quite a passive and quiet person in general. When I was standing there with him starting to get angry and realised my friend had seen I realised she is probably thinking "so that is why she is shy and quiet". But as I have grown up and I am seeing him through an adult lens I cannot bite my tongue as a lot of things he does are really childish and I will call him out on it as he has no power over me anymore. For example he will start an argument with my DM over the most pettiest, smallest thing and I will tell him he is petty to make such a big deal about it and it hates that I bring things to light like that. The problem is outside of these moments where he acts like that he is fine to be around and I class myself as getting on well with him. I hate going out in public with him but if it is just me and him he is fine.

@AttilaTheMeerkat His own childhood was quite bad. His DM was very passive and his DF was quite aggressive and angry. I think given his childhood my DF has done the best he can, he is similar to his DF in some ways but is a much, much more dilute and milder version of him. For example, my DGF was apparently quite aggressive whereas my DF would never ever harm us physically. I only learnt how bad my DGF was recently, he was a very good grandfather and I was incredibly close to him so I was very shocked to find out he was aggressive as a husband and as a parent. When I see my DF act the way he does I can literally see the 7ish year old boy in him. It is interesting though because as adults my DF and DGF got on well, such as how my DF and I get on well aside from these "episodes" of behaviour.

I will definitely read the out of fog website.

We are on egg shells to some extent, especially if we are out in public as I don't want to be embarrassed. But at home I am less so. My DM is on egg shells but is getting more assertive whereas if he is having one of his little episodes I will call him out on it which he hates as I think he does not realise how petty he is being. My DSis is quite checked out and ignores most of what happens and just doesn't get involved.

One thing I forgot to mention is he cannot handle having any kind of obligation. He has been retired for most of my life so I don't know whether it is because his World has shrunk with retirement or whether he just struggles with everyday tasks and obligations. For example, if my DM asks him to do the food shop it seems to think it is a massive inconvenience and that it means it has interfered with his entire day which revolves around his hobby. He cannot seem to perceive that it takes maybe 1-2 hours to do the shopping and after that the whole day is free. The other day he was asked to do the shopping AND had to answer a phone call to his brother and he was literally lying on the floor because of it, I guess because he was overwhelmed. It is moments like that where I just cannot fathom why he is acting like that.

I do not expect my DF to ever change and have no expectation of that, I just think I want to understand why he acts the way he does. Some of the things he does are just so bizarre, like the example I described about him starting a massive argument because he could not find that specific food item in the shop. I literally see him as a 7 year old boy.

Ironically I had to pause during writing this as an argument started between my DSis and DF. My DSis had asked my DF if he could drop her off at the train station this afternoon as her car is in for repairs and he had agreed. However they both had misunderstood as she wanted to be dropped off at the train station which is an extra 10 minute drive away as it is on a direct train to London so he started a big argument about having to drive those extra few miles. She had mentioned this when asking but he doesn't recall it. My DSis got upset as rather than just say "oh I misunderstood, I thought it was station Y not X" it had to be made into an argument. They have now gone but not after he had to be all dramatic about how unfair it was to him and then during the argument when he cannot get his way he starts saying he has chest pains - I guess to get my DSis to appease him and start being passive as poor DF is not feeling well. The first time he used the chest pain excuse I was worried, but he does it all the time, or sometimes he will have head pains, or feel dizzy, etc. It is the adult equivalent of him threatening to leave us in the supermarket alone.

My boundaries are that I still live at home. I never thought I was someone who had to have boundaries with my parents. I feel like I have been so blind to how damaging the way he behaves is to me.

@Ulterego yep I definitely agree. I feel like he is very emotionally stunted. So many times I can literally see him turn into a 7 year old boy. He has been retired for most of my life so I am not sure how he was. He can put an act on sometimes so probably was ok at work.

He definitely only acts like that with people who are weaker or quieter than him or are not able to retaliate. For example, the way he drives is quite aggressive but if the person he is having a disagreement with got out of their car and went to challenge him he would panic and drive off. Whenever he is with family friends or extended family he can put an act on of being really shy and quiet and kind, like at Christmas "oh I will do the washing up, you all sit and relax". He loves doing gestures for people like that as you can see him light up and think he is such a good person for doing it and they must think of him as so kind and generous, not realising that our entire extended family and all of our family friends can see straight through it and dislike him and the way he treats my DM.

He sounds like someone who is very limited and stunted in his ability to deal with life and it's challenges but due to a dominant personality his way of dealing with this is to to be controlling and defensive?
Can you spread your wings and fly the nest so you don't have to put up with him?

I feel like I have been so blind to how damaging the way he behaves is to me.

It is very hard once we start to see the behaviour not to be hurt by it. Ignorance in some way is bliss but in others it utterly devastating for the soul. In these circumstances of abusive behaviour and make no mistake you have described episode after episode of abusive behaviour, we have 2 choices:

1. Add it to the scrap heap of soul destroying behaviour and continue to respond with the coping methods we have developed over years of dealing with the behaviour. Aka a combination of minimisation, denial, self blame.
2. Throw out those old coping strategies and grow and develop for yourself and learn about the damage your father has done and how you can put it right for yourself.

Unfortunately neither of these options are particularly enjoyable for the people at the end of them but most people really only have one or the other option. The people who are good at the denial one keep going at that and the ones who cannot deal with the constant pretence have to choose option 2.

@Ulterego That is the perfect description of him, he really cannot handle normal responsibilities that come with life. Even as a parent he did no parenting and my DM pretty much raised us as a single mother.

I plan on moving out next year.

@myduckiscooked I feel like I am well past the point of denial. I can see in my "personality" how the damage has manifested. I am a complete people pleaser and very timid and passive with others. I just don't know how to change that.

This thread has really helped me. It was after my graduation that I really started to think things through as I was racked with guilt as I kept thinking I wish he didn't have to go and afterwards I wish that he didn't go. The whole experience was just stressful and I felt like I was on high alert waiting for any signs that his behaviour was going to start to get bad and checking whether anyone I knew was around when he started acting out.

I spoke to a friend at graduation and her Dad came over and was chatting to me and it sounds silly but afterwards I was just shocked that a father can come over and chat away to his daughter's friends and make small talk and not embarrass his daughter.

I feel like I am well past the point of denial. I can see in my "personality" how the damage has manifested. I am a complete people pleaser and very timid and passive with others. I just don't know how to change that

Good for you justfeel it goes without saying that that is the approach that most of us here have chosen simply because denial is ultimately a means of giving away your power to those being abusive towards you and allowing the abusive behaviour to continue.

You will figure out how to change things but it probably won’t look pretty at times. It basically boils down to setting healthy boundaries and what that looks like in the circumstance you are in. Those who already understand what healthy boundaries look like will completely understand where you are coming from, those who are as compromised as you are by the abuse and don’t have boundaries tend to be the ones who struggle the most with you doing that.

I am a complete people pleaser and very timid and passive with others. I just don't know how to change that
As said your father (based on your description) strikes me as someone who lacks the 'smarts' (intelligence, sophistication, charm etc) to do well in life but still has a strong need to gratify his ego & esteem.
Unable to amass any social capitol but also unable to tolerate his 'loser' status in life he resorts to crushing and stunting those close to him so that at least they can never get above him and put him in the shade. If you were to emerge as a worldly confident person I feel he would find ways to attack you and reduce you so that he no longer felt threatened by your superiority to him.

Thank you for your reply @myduckiscooked. I will try that. I'm so much better than I was but now and again it all gets abit much and my mood dips. I should have done something years ago but I was extremely close to my Dad so just put up with being gaslighted etc by my mother as didn't want to upset my Dad. He sadly died 2 years ago and that's why I decided that I could no longer tolerate her behaviour anymore. Its incredibly sad but I know I don't deserve to be treated like this when all I have ever done is try and be a good daughter. I think what I find so incredibly sad and hard to live with is the fact that she has told lies about me to other people and basically made me out to be someone who has 'lost the plot' so to speak. I have a good and successful career which I have managed to keep throughout all of this, something which I couldn't have sustained if 'I had lost the plot' !

There was a question on here a few days ago asking if anyone agreed that going through a difficult childhood makes you more resillient and I've been mulling this over. I understand why it was ignored but I felt it needed answering. I agree that challenging events help us to grow by learning how to cope and overcome them, but the difficulty with abuse by parents (however 'mild' it may seem to outsiders) is that it dents your self-esteem in a way that is extremely difficult to counter. Your parents are the people you should be able to rely on to want the best for you, to be proud and show pride in what you do, and to help you grow to adulthood with a positive self-image. If that's undermined then its stamped on you in permanent ink that you can scrub at but it won't rub out, especially when they continue to repeat the message when you're an adult. I also think we have moved on as a society and no longer accept bullying generally as something that just happens and will make a person stronger, in the long run, so why would we think that it's okay in our own family? My childhood shaped who I am. I have a DB with extreme learning disabilities and that has helped me to be more accepting and understanding of people's differences and difficulties, and I also learnt self-resillience because my parents had their attention and time taken up with him, which is a largely a good thing of course. My F's behaviour towards me has not helped me in any way, its not something I could overcome because it was just constant low-level negativity and it was bullying. In the end I just had to walk away.

My DD1's birthday just passed without a card arriving from my F. I am mainly extremely relieved but at the same time angry with him. Also wondering if DD will notice as still not had the conversation.

Your parents are the people you should be able to rely on

To be intersted in you. To be or at least appear to be more interested in you than in themselves. Without that, you grow up feeling uninteresting, and you struggle to think that you deserve the interest or respect if others. Sorry, I wanted to add that as its definitely what I have not overcome.

Permanent ink that you can scrub at but it won't rub out
For me your post really captures what's going on Freshstart, in particular the way that they continue to reinforce this message when you are an adult, as if they put you under a spell when you were a child and now they just need to utter one or two 'magic words' and we are triggered back
I think one part of it is the mismatch between what was acceptable in their day/childhood and the mindset that we need to function in the modern world ... They are expecting us to accept things which the rest of society considers intolerable, they want to keep us at their level of black and white thinking, of bigotry etc.
Further I think that [with people living longer and needing care when they are elderly] at the back of their mind is something driving them to keep us under control so that we will serve them in their old age

I think one part of it is the mismatch between what was acceptable in their day/childhood and the mindset that we need to function in the modern world ... They are expecting us to accept things which the rest of society considers intolerable, they want to keep us at their level of black and white thinking, of bigotry etc

^Absolutely this. In my case that was tyrannical misogyny and an acceptance of child sex abuse as something “normal” between siblings. What really hurts though is how my siblings, in this generation, even one who was abused alongside me, going along with those dinosaur perspectives as if those beliefs could have been developed in a healthy mind. Clearly they weren’t.

@FreshStart101 - the difficult childhood/resilience question is interesting. To some extent it must depend on the character of the child involved.

I left home as soon as I realistically could without actually running away. My sister stayed until 30. I have always pulled myself up by my own bootstraps - she is much more accepting/desirous of parental help with her problems. This of course means that she has constant parental interference in her affairs, which I have prevented for myself.

I think to myself that I am OK with my own bootstraps, which have proved pretty reliable and tough over the years. But if I really think about it I also realise that having to rely only on my own resilience as a child has meant that I will not let anyone else in. I have been married for years, mostly happily, but I don't let my husband in to my inner self. Nor do I have close friends.

not posted on this thread for ages, but mother phoned last night and has put me in a bit of a head spin.
am low contact with her for various reasons, but she was emotional abusive and never there for me for much of my teenage years onwards.

for the last few years things have also been difficult- my father died and she has been ill and in and out of hospital but refuses to take responsibility for anything.

these hospital stays have made her more and more needy, but more and more abusive, eg me driving 2 hours to see her after 10 hour work day, only to have her shout at me on the ward for 30 minutes.

recently she has come into some money, while DH and I are pretty broke. DM tells me she wants to buy me something special for xmas and my birthday, which is just days before

she's done this to me before though, two years ago I got the whole "I want to get you something special " line, so I sent her links of a few things I liked, nothing massively expensive, but just got a text a few days later saying I should buy something myself and she would give me the money. now bear in mind I'm down about £1k from things i've bought for her where she's said she would give me the money, I didn't do this

this same Christmas she gave my brothers girlfriend a car (one she had but no longer used, but still giving her a car) while she bought a watch I wanted off my wishlist, told me how lovely she thought it was, then said she was giving it to my other brothers wife.

now she's back doing the same again - and I'm tempted to tell her I don't want anything from her

I would further lower your current level of contact to a point of zero

You do not owe this parent anything let alone a relationship here. She was not a good parent to you when you were growing up and she has not changed since that time

Hi everyone. I'm quite new to MN and very new to this thread.

I had a realisation this week that I ran away and got married young not just because I was head over heels but because of my home life. It seems stupid I never realised before.

I guess I'm worried I won't have a normal life, will end up in another DV relationship if I can even find anyone to take me on. And f up my kids. If I can even conceive now.

Urgh am I nuts?

acceptance of child sex abuse as something “normal” between siblings
I have similar in my background, abused by a family member and the response of my parents, well some of it resembles the prince andrew interview, a refusal to accept that any wrong has been done, generally implying that I brought it on myself.
Complete head fuck, it takes years to even accept that they dont even care, they dont even think there is a case to answer.
Renounce them completely and walk away, how else can you preserve your own sense of self worth?

I'm tempted to tell her I don't want anything from her
I dont think she even deserves the courtesy of being informed, I would just blank her, whatever tiny interaction you have with her she will pour as much bile into it as she can manage
stop up the access and passageways via which she might reach you

Spodge You sound very similar to me, self-resiliant but self-contained. I moved out and never asked my parents for anything. I knew I didn't want to owe my F for anything. I'm married to a lovely man but often he doesn't have a clue what's going on in my head, and happiness is I feel a little bit elusive for me. He sometimes says that if he dies before me, I'll be absolutely fine - and he's right. I don't need anyone, but I wish I was different.

PurpleFrames Well we're all a little bit nuts, aren't we?! It sounds like you've been through a lot, and not had an easy time. The fact that you are realising that things weren't right means you are able to see the damage it did to you, and therefore be a good parent yourself. Welcome.

ClosedAuraOpenMind I definitely wouldn't ask for or accept anything from her, sound like it'll come with a lot of strings attached, including putting you out if pocket if she decides not to reimburse you - which sounds very likely to happen.

I wandered over to Issendai today and I want to share this:
www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-missing-reasons.html
What Can Be Done About It?
Nothing.
I'm sorry.
When denial runs that deep, when avoidance is that in-ground, a person can't be separated from it any more than they can be separated from their bones. It's why I aimed this site at estranged adult children and outsiders: because members of estranged parents' forums can't be helped. Their entire system of defenses is designed to make them unsavable.
From my own experiences with a former friend who had the same difficulty absorbing negative input, I can tell you that by framing criticism very, very carefully, with lots of positive input and as little emotion as possible, you can coax someone to accept little slivers of negative feedback. But you have to explain it so gently that they don't understand how serious the situation is, and in a few weeks they're back to their old selves.
You can also train them by addressing each problem in the moment. As soon as they do something wrong, you tell them what they did and give them immediate consequences, like ending the visit. Each time you do it they'll tantrum and spray abuse in all directions, but with repetition they'll learn that doing thing-they-like X causes thing-they-hate Y. Maybe they'll stop doing X. Maybe they'll stop visiting, and they'll tell the rest of the family how controlling and cruel you are. Maybe your mental health will survive the tantrums and abuse and escalating tactics long enough for them to pick one or the other. It's like training a toddler, but without any hope that the toddler will grow out of it.

There's a reason the members of estranged parents' forums are estranged.

If you're an estranged adult child and you're looking for a way to get your parents to hear what the problem is, I'm sorry, but you have your answer already. They don't want to know. They may be incapable of knowing. There are no magic words that will penetrate their defenses.
The good news is that you're free. You can stop now. If you need permission, I'll give it to you: You are hereby allowed to stop trying to get through to your wilfully deaf parents.
Please stop.
🌞🌞🌞🌞🌞
Happy Sunday everyone

My parents have been here for twenty four hours. In all in bed under covers depression on me. My mother has just texted all happy like life is perfect as she got to see her GC. I don't remember a Christmas I have felt so alone. We haven't been invited to siblings this year for Boxing Day. My parents are going there despite the original plan being here which they decided not to do after we refused to house them. Haven't seen brother all year despite suggesting things throughout. He has no desire to see me or kids it seems. Haven't received a single Xmas card from anyone - not one single friend.
Spent morning cleaning and now I just can't pretend any more. Feel very bleak.
My mother's parting words were that maybe she should come back on Boxing Day as she is worried about my eldest child. Like I am some kind of neglectful mother!!!!!! Never mind me or my husband. Honestly feel so upset. Can't be bothered to do anything. Tree undressed downstairs, I haven't the energy to pretend to be festive and ok. No one gives two shits.

Today I asked my DS if he wanted to see GC (I know I'm in the FOG). His reply was interesting but also made me feel upset and angry on his behalf. He is 3.5 years old. When I asked him he said I only want to see Nanny. I said do you not want to see grandad he said no I don't like him because he winds me up.
This is true my D thinks he's funny when in actual fact he winds my DS up. Teases and things. I said to my D stop he doesn't like it or you're upsetting him. His reply is always well I was joking.
Is this affecting my DS because we only saw my M and then D came home later and DS was happy to see him. So not sure if he is being affected or just said it? But I thought it was an interesting comment for DS to make. Sorry if I sound naive like I said I think I'm deep in the FOG

I said to my D stop he doesn't like it or you're upsetting him. His reply is always well I was joking
it's not a reply though is it, you didnt ask him if he was joking or serious, you told him that he is upsetting your son, his reply seems to imply that he doesnt care about upsetting your son.
You could just stick to the issue at hand:
'well I was joking'
'that is beside the point, you are upsetting him and I would like you to stop'
(that's if you feel like being polite about it:) )