"But we took you to Stately Homes" November 2019 onwards thread

[toomuchtooold]

It's November 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
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October-November 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

With this in mind, I've been looking for a thread I read yesterday regarding going NC with a sibling i.e. did you find it difficult. I've looked and searched and I cannot find it.

It was both interesting and useful.

Alternating between bemused, angry and head shaking/wtf/that was really not a normal childhood @singinglily. Cannot tell you all how much these threads have helped in moving away past visceral hurt - have been lurking a loooong time and posting feels like come out from under the ice to take a breath. (Not normally so dramatic honeestly) Thank you so much to everyone sharing.

@Winterwonderland10 I'm glad you feel like things are changing.

Although i have alot of anger and sadness atm. I also feel proud of myself.

Winterwonderland Hold on to that pride, I'm proud of you too. Keep going. You're doing this for your DS as well as yourself.

I can relate, you need to have an adult to adult conversation but they have 'triggered' you into child mode and it's just such a powerful trigger, like a spell they put you under, the only sound that will come out is 'WAHHH I HATE YOU WAHHH' and you are defenseless

Ach, adult to adult conversations are for decent people. The horrors that we're related to don't hear you when you talk to them adult to adult, all they understand is the push and pull of the dysfunctional, guilt-inducing, blame everyone else for how you feel type interactions that they tried to tie us up in as kids and as adults.

I personally think that urge to walk out is incredibly healthy, I think that comes from the gut and it is to be trusted. You can't reason with them, you can't fix them, the way to win is to be far away from them.

So many strong people on this thread to take strength from. Big moment for me this week was refusing to meet my mother. As I thought, she is now expecting me to fill the gap that has been created in her life. She didn't even ask-she stated we would meet soon! When she got no answer she laid out a series of unfortunate events, designed to play on my sympathies I think. But I didn't take the bait, not this time!

Just checking in and am reading your posts and thinking of you all. I have had no contact for a long time now but last weekend found out about an accident (mentioned it last week). My brother had been messaging me all week but didn't tell me then I got a nasty message from another brother that said he was trying to ring (no missed calls) and that I only think of myself and my father is ill. I would normally drive straight over (of course) but I know I would be screamed at and blamed. So I stayed away from them all. It wad cruel not to tell me especially when messaging me. Usually at this time of year I really struggle but I just feel empty. I am so tired of them.

One time when I walked home She made horrible remarks and j just sat quietly and then started screaming that I was causing an atmosphere. That's when I lifted my children and drove off. She creates a lot of drama.

A cousin of ours died suddenly in her 30s sadly earlier this year. My mother doesnt speak to any of the family as she said her brother (my uncle) committee suicide and they all killed him (not true) her family all have mental health issues. She didn't go to any part of the funeral/ wake yet cried and caused drama over where she was buried and we all ended up calming her down/she made it all about her. I just sit back now and think how could anyone do that when a poor woman has left young children behind at such a young age. Sorry for all the post.

Am I alone in thinking that some of the not so good things (as long as they are not too extreme or actually abusive) that happen in childhood actually do help you to become more resilient and deal with things that seem to disrail other people.

That urge to walk out is incredibly healthy
I agree, I think the abusive people in this dynamic understand at some level that their prey have survival instincts and will escape if they can, much of the abuse has to do with thwarting and confusing the survival instincts of the prey

Littleshortcake, well done for staying away, stay strong and you can escape from these people.
Your brother is just trying to provoke you into reacting so that he can get some purchase and manipulate you.
Nothing good will come from interacting with them, keep away, you owe them nothing, but you owe it to yourself to protect yourself from them.

Adult to adult conversations are for decent people. The horrors that we're related to don't hear you when you talk to them adult to adult, all they understand is the push and pull of the dysfunctional, guilt-inducing, blame everyone else for how you feel type interactions that they tried to tie us up in as kids and as adults

Absolutely toomuch oh the irony of my father and sister constantly telling me that they were handling my brother’s sexual abuse like adults while I was behaving like a child. All the while both of them would constantly undermine my feelings and get me to toe the family line reducing me to the vulnerable inner child my family had broken a very long time ago with the same undermining behaviours. The same undermining behaviours my parents had allowed to go unchecked from my older brothers until one of them escalated to sexual abuse. The same undermining behaviours from my parents that had meant 2 little girls could go to them when they were being abused. The undermining behaviours my sister also a victim of abusive brother has taken on as an art form at this stage as it is just to difficult to face up to the family problems for her and it is much easier to target me for the shaming and blaming.

Could not go to our parents

Sorry I didn't reply to my replies from a few days ago. I just withdrew in this area. I have seen the "stately homes" area before and although I relate to it in the same way I understand what it is to have been a child with parents with serious mental health issues, I have a thick wall of denial. Professional role, single parent, studying, people say I seem resilient and I supress knowing what it was like to think life was worthless as a child. I often think of running away and being completely alone. This is worse now as I know I will see my dad soon.

My dad was abusive to my mum and my sister lives a plane ride away. I have briefed my partner that we will ask what he wants and then walk away.

MyDuck this gaslighting on steroids that we receive from parents is so hard to combat, they will never ever back down or admit fault, have they been under a rock for 50 years, I mean how can anyone not understand how damaging this abuse is, how can they not care what happened to their children, and they just rub salt into the wound.
There is no hope for them just kick them to the curb and walk away.
In a sombre mood tonight I hope everyone is ok.
We can see the truth we will survive!

Sorry that you're feeling sombre @ulterego. Don't know if it would make you feel any better that I've read your previous posts whilst lurking and found them really helpful

thank you Jamon, the mutual support and understanding here is very special, it's really helped me too
💙🙏💙

Hi I'm a new poster to this thread. I'm a parent to a young toddler and I'm finding it really hard as I could never imagine treating my child the way I was treated. I feel a lot of sadness and grief most days, and I guess its sadness for me as a child. I imagine my child feeling the feelings I felt at their age and it upsets me so much. Has anyone felt the same? Did it eventually pass? I don't want to feel like this as I feel like it is robbing me of happy times with my child.

Hi everyone,

I've name changed to write this as I feel like this linked with my previous comments will be too revealing.

I wanted to write a bit about my DF to try and gain some insight into why he is the way that he is.

He is always right and never at fault. If you disagree with him or ruin his plans he gets really annoyed. For example, at my graduation he got annoyed with me because I didn't want to go up to all of my friends, who were busy with their families, and gather them all in front of what my DF had determined was a good background so that he could take a group photo. He didn't want to take the photograph for me to have as a momento but rather so he would get the recognition and reward of being the one who provided such a "good" picture of us all. He threatened to leave and go home because of that so I had to be all timid and distract him "ooh there is a nice background for a photograph there, can you take some of me alone first" when I had no interest in getting photographs there I just wanted to diffuse the situation and get us out of earshot of my friends and professors. Another example is I was in a shop with him once and he was convinced the shop sold a particular food item, he became really fixated on it saying they definitely sold it. We walked around the shop maybe three times before I told him they do not sell it or we would have seen it, and that I recall when we last saw it is was in a different branch and was a new product so probably had not arrived at that store yet, he started getting annoyed with me and raising his voice and deliberately speaking loudly and swearing in the silent shop to embarrass me and was walking round and round the shop looking for the food item that we did not need, we could have just gotten anything else but he just became randomly fixated on it. The food item wasn't even for him and there were loads of alternatives, we truly did not need that particular one but he was just weirdly fixated on it. When driving if he has right of way when driving down a road he will not pull in for the other driver even if it is easier for him to do so and will make the other driver reverse as he has the right of way so is in the right.

When I was little he walked out of supermarkets if we misbehaved, leaving us with the shopping trolley and alone and frightened not knowing if he was going to really leave us there. He would leave the house in a temper and drive off and tell us he was never going to come back. If we were too noisy in the car he would get pull the car over, get out and just walk away telling us he would never come back so my DM would have to get into the driver's seat and drive to find him. He always came back but it just seemed such a horrible way to frighten us into behaving and like emotional blackmail.

He has bad social skills and doesn't understand the unwritten rules of social behaviour. It is little things that add up so it is hard to describe examples. One example I can think of is when he walks into a shop to get something he goes straight up to the worker and asks them where it is without saying please or realising that most people have a little look on their own first. He will do loud things like hoovering at 11pm and when my DM, DSis or I tell him to be quiet and that you cannot make that much noise at that kind of time when there are people trying to sleep he says he can do whatever he likes and he gets annoyed and gets in a temper as we have interrupted his plans.

He glares at people really obviously all the time in public, it is like he doesn't understand his facial expressions are visible to people. He also talks badly about people, loudly. Making comments about their weight or other aspects of their appearance.

My sister now avoids being in public with him and I am about at that level too. I just cannot work it out. When he is in a good mood and is just with close family he is normal and nice and we can have good conversations. I do get on well with him but these situations are just so baffling to me.

I'm hoping someone can help. My mother with whom I have been no contact with for a year, is trying to turn my adult children against me and it's destroying me and making me really unwell.
As she has always in their eyes been a good grandmother I think they are finding it hard to understand and believe what I have been saying.
I have always had a close relationship with them but just feel that my kids don't truly believe what I am saying and its breaking my heart.
I truly haven't done anything wrong apart from speaking out and going NC.
I was diagnosed with depression and PTSD as a result of this and just seem to get 'triggered' all the time especially when I see my estranged mother ( we live in the same town). I have had therapy in the past and found this useful but this just never seems to end and I'm getting so tired of trying to prove that it's not me that has a problem.
I just want my relationship with my children to be as it was . Has anyone any ideas how I can resolve this ?

Belle that is really tricky. The best thing I can suggest to you is to create absolute boundaries with your children around your mother. I would take time to explain factually the overriding issue. “My mother and I just don’t get on. There are a lot of reasons for this. I don’t want to bog you down in the detail but I find it incredibly sad that I cannot be in her life and I would prefer not to discuss her any longer because it makes me very sad but I fully support you having a relationship with her.” Then refuse absolutely to engage in conversations just repeat the above.

I know how invalidating it is when people go along with abusive people but it is an almost constant fact of life. And family is so complicated people are willing to forgive and facilitate the worst of humanity being perpetrated onto others within the bonds of family simply out of love. However that does not make that alright for you. It is such a horrible feeling when others are perfectly okay with savage mistreatment of you.

justfeeling that is horrific and very damaging behaviour from your father. But he simply won’t change. They never do. They wreak havoc around as others try to fill in the constant holes and wounds they make in people’s lives and continuously compromise their own values at the altar of appeasing the abusive behaviour of the abuser. It is exhausting. If I was in your shoes I would need space, lots of space from that man. He is affecting you even when he is not abusing you.

justfeelingsad

Its not your fault that your dad is like this and you did not make him that way (his own family of origin did that. What if anything by the way do you know about his own family background, that often gives clues).

I would think your dad has some sort of untreated - and untreatable form of personality disorder.. Have a read of the "out of the fog" website as it could also help you here.

You likely only get on with him when you are fully compliant and dancing to his tune. You all are on eggshells aka living in fear around him. People from dysfunctional families end up playing roles; what roles have you, your sister and your mother all been playing here?.

Your mother has really also failed you here as a parent too by failing to protect you from her H's excesses of behaviour. She gets what she wants out of this relationship with him and she will likely never leave him.

Re your comment:-
"He has bad social skills and doesn't understand the unwritten rules of social behaviour. It is little things that add up so it is hard to describe examples. One example I can think of is when he walks into a shop to get something he goes straight up to the worker and asks them where it is without saying please or realising that most people have a little look on their own first."

My MIL does this self same behaviour to others and she is a narcissist. She has little to no social discourse skills whatsoever and she is like that because she thinks she is above all others and is superior in intellect to them. As duck so rightly says too, such people do not change. Your dad will not somehow become a nicer more rounded individual.

Where are your own boundaries at with regards to your parents, I feel they need further revising upwards.

Justfeelingsad he sounds like someone with very poor impulse control as if he's never learnt to regulate his own emotions or no one has ever said no to him?

Then again how does he behave at work? Is he rude to people who might turn around and lamp him one or is he only rude to people who are a soft touch and easy to intimidate?
Whatever the case he sounds like a complete pain in the ass, how can anyone bear to be around him when he's acting out like that?

Actually my mum was rather like that too, when you're young and sparkly you can sort of almost get away with it but when you're older you are way less endearing and you just come across as batshit and annoying.
I suppose by that time the old dog can't learn new tricks