"But we took you to Stately Homes" November 2019 onwards thread

[toomuchtooold]

It's November 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
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October-November 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Welcome sparklychristmaslights,

Its not you sparkly, its your parents. They both failed you utterly and now you're blundering about wondering what you did wrong here (nothing in relation to them, none of this is your fault and you were also but a child at the time) in your own fear, obligation and guilt. Your mother abused you and your dad was weak and put his new wife and family ahead of his own son. Its not your fault they are like this and you did not make them that way.

May I ask what sort of counselling you are going to embark on?. Is this therapist highly skilled in dealing with abuse?. Does this person have any familial bias?. I ask this only because such people are like shoes and you need to find someone who fits and who fits in with your own approach.

It is to your credit that you live the life as you do now; you have a family of your own and you would not ever treat your own children in the ways you were treated. Be kind to yourself .

Hi, sparklychristmaslights, I'm glad you found this thread although I am so sorry for the reasons why you are here.

It's coming up to Christmas and that's the time when everything around us - films, television ads, newspapers and social media - seems to be nothing but happy families coming together to share a magical Christmas. It's so far from the truth for so many people, and it's particularly raw because it makes us thinks about the gaps and losses within our own family.

Your mother sounds much like mine. Emotionally abusive and, in my case, physically neglectful. However, my Dad - who I adored because he was the only parent I could run to for a hug whenever I was upset or hurt as a child - didn't leave her but stayed. He ran around in ever-decreasing circles trying to placate her. Eventually, even that didn't work and he ended up colluding with her and becoming a secondary abuser.

Your Dad had had enough of your mother and left. He left you, as a small child, knowing what she was like. He may not have known about the physical abuse but he must certainly have known about the emotional abuse because - without a shadow of a doubt - he would have experienced that from her himself.

I'm going to guess that he feels guilty about that.

As people get older, they reflect on their lives, how they lived them, whether they could have done better. It's the stage of life when you feel genuine regret for some of your choices. So my best guess is that he has been reflecting on how he should have been a better father to you and how badly he failed you. Even my Dad, who could be quite hurtful in his own right, came to that realisation and asked for my forgiveness just days before he died.

If I'm right, your father is now mired in his feelings and simply finds it easier to let go of the memories in an attempt to let go of the guilt. He was a weak man then. He is a weak man now. He cannot be relied upon.

That's very painful for you to hear, and I am so sorry for that. But you should know that none of this is your fault. None of it. They were the adults. You were the child. The responsibility for all of this lies with them, not you.

I'm wondering if you have any siblings or even any half-siblings that you could talk to, but understand if that, too, would be problematic. Your mother did her best to poison the relationship between you and your father - and he allowed her to. She had already done the same for the relationship between you and her.

I'm also wondering if your DH has any thoughts on this.

You've managed to build a family of your own, despite being so badly let down by your own parents, and I have no doubt that you would never ever contemplate letting any hurt come to your DC in the way that your mother did to you. All credit to you, Sparkly, for giving your children the safe and loving childhood you were denied. 💐

Thank you both so much for your lovely messages, it's reassuring.

@AttilaTheMeerkat the counsellor I'm seeing is experienced in abuse so I'm hoping she will be able to help but I'm going for an initial session on Thursday so will see how it goes. I've been wanting to have counselling for a long time but a few recent events in regard to my mum and dad were the straw that broke the camels back and I realised I couldn't go on.

@SingingLily I have a sibling who is completely no contact with my father and has been for over 10 years now. Although I chat to her a lot about my mum (who continues to be difficult although she is present) it's a very touchy subject when it comes to my dad so I mainly just talk to DH. My DH is absolutely disgusted with my dad and can't comprehend how a parent could not want to be in their child's life. He's a great support to me. You're right, my dad was and is weak and a coward.

I never really thought much about my childhood until I had my own children and it all came to the surface. As my children grow older (my eldest is 7) it makes me realise even more that I wasn't treated how I should have been. I really strive to give my DC the best life I can but am equally terrified that I'll somehow turn out being just like my parents.

Sparkly -

I really strive to give my DC the best life I can but am equally terrified that I'll somehow turn out being just like my parents.

The very fact that you are even thinking this means you are nothing like your parents.

Your mother has no empathy. That's a dead giveaway. She would not have treated you the way she did otherwise. Neither does your father or he wouldn't have walked away and left you, a very young child, with a woman he knew to be toxic.

Your DH sounds as though he has his head screwed on.

I think your DC are in safe hands.

sparkly

I wish you all the best on Thursday.

Re your comment:-
"I really strive to give my DC the best life I can but am equally terrified that I'll somehow turn out being just like my parents."

The fear that you'll turn out just like them is often expressed but those fears you have are really unfounded/ What you need to remember here is that you are your own person here and you make choices of your own free will; you are not your mother and father. They made and continue to make poor choices and you do not and have indeed not followed in their particular footsteps. You broke the cycle of abuse and have chosen to follow a different path from the ones they went down. They did not seek the necessary help for their inherent ills but chose to re-enact the same old that was likely done to them as children by their own parents. What if anything do you know about your parents childhoods; this can often give clues.

I would certainly also look into further reducing all forms of contact with your mother to zero. She is not worthy of you either. A good rule of thumb here is that if a parent is too toxic for you to deal with, its the same deal for the kids too.

You also have two very important qualities that both your parents absolutely lack; empathy and insight. Living well is the best revenge here.

I've been no contact with my abusive parents for six years. I posted on this thread for support at the time. I stayed in contact through Facebook and Facebook messenger with my Dad's brother and sister and their families. Family is really important to me. My uncle and some of my extended family liked his frankly racist memes, far right and Islamophobic content. I put it to the back of my mind because they're family. They also still see my abusive parents and I accepted that, even though my Dad's sister has told me she knew what my mum was like to me as a child. I'm still getting over how my parents have behaved and was suicidal for many years as a result of their behaviour.

The election has made me realise just how much I don't like their racism and callousness. My cousin dismissed the photo of the four year old boy on the floor of a and e as labour lies. I'm a very empathetic person so her opinion is upsetting to me. My parents were always disliked all of these people and it's difficult for me to think that they were right about them. Because if they're right about them, are they right about the stuff they've said about me, my dcs and dh?
I've blocked them and I'm really confused and upset. Have I done the right thing by blocking them and not seeing them again?

I’m a good and kind person who lives as best as I can, normal family life, good job so I’m not sure where I’ve gone wrong
the short answer may be that they just cant tolerate the fact that you are good and upstanding, it casts them in a very poor light and they prefer to place themselves above you.
Your very existence renders illegitimate any claim that they have to the moral high ground and so you must be crushed by whatever means until you are firmly beneath them.
There very probably is no remedy to this, walk away and save yourself

Hi LittleSweet :)
my Dad's sister has told me she knew what my mum was like to me as a child
so she tells you to your face that she knew you were being abused as a child but she, an adult CHOSE to ignore your suffering??
She is insulting you, you should not tolerate this LittleSweet

LittleSweet

re your comments that I have separated out only for more clarity in my responses:-

"I've been no contact with my abusive parents for six years".

Good. Continue to remain no contact with them as well. Radio silence from you should be maintained.

"I posted on this thread for support at the time".

Good, keep doing so now particularly if and when you at all waiver. This can be a hard time of year.

"I stayed in contact through Facebook and Facebook messenger with my Dad's brother and sister and their families. Family is really important to me".

Would consider removing yourself completely from such social media now. You have a family unit of your very own; concentrate your efforts going forward on them, the people who really do deserve your time and effort. Your parents as are these relations here are rotten to the core.

"My uncle and some of my extended family liked his frankly racist memes, far right and Islamophobic content. I put it to
the back of my mind because they're family".

No you should not have done that re putting that to the back of your mind and you now need to ask yourself why you did. They being family was never reason enough to stay in contact but now you know what they are really like. The only acceptable level of abuse in a relationship is NONE.

You have a family unit of your own; concentrate your efforts going forward on them, the people who really do deserve your time. Your parents family are rotten to the core.

"They also still see my abusive parents and I accepted that, even though my Dad's sister has told me she knew what my mum was like to me as a child"

Again, why did you do this?. Was this out of some sense of obligation you still have or out of your internalised, unreal and totally idealised version of your wider family?. I presume they see them because they get something out of the relationship and want to remain favoured with them. What you wanted here and what you have actually got re them are two very different things. These relations are not nice people and they are really out of the same rotten mould as your parents are.

You were and remain right to cut such people out of your life. You need radiators in your life, not drains on you.

Re your comment:-
"My parents were always disliked all of these people and it's difficult for me to think that they were right about them. Because if they're right about them, are they right about the stuff they've said about me, my dcs and dh?"

I think you have missed a word or two out here in this first sentence because it does not read quite right. But of course they are not right about you and your own family unit. Never doubt that!.

"I've blocked them and I'm really confused and upset. Have I done the right thing by blocking them and not seeing them again?"
Yes, absolutely!!. If you have not already done so, do read "Toxic Parents" by Susan Forward

Keep posting here too.

Your parents may have been correct on some level about their relations being rotten but they were certainly not and do not remain right about you and your own family unit. You have absolutely done the right thing by blocking them and not seeing them again.

@AttilaTheMeerkat and @Ulterego thanks so much for your comments. I really am finding them really helpful and have helped me to see things in another light.

I have a big desire to seek some kind of closure on the situation with my dad, maybe messaging him and asking why he's not been in contact. But I know that would probably open a huge can of worms and potentially make me feel even worse in the long run. It all just feels so 'unfinished'.

Thank you Ulterego and Atilla. I think I stayed in contact as I had an idealised idea of them and what I wanted to believe they are, rather than who they are. Which is why I suffered with my parents until the age of 40.
I am autistic and still have an abused child in my heart, (iyswim), so I'm not very good at this sort of thing.

It's just sad that they are my family. Christmas doesn't help as all the adverts and people's conversations are all about family getting together. I know that it's not just me that has an abusive family, but I would like a kind family.

Sorry, I forgot to write, the comments helped me sort out the jumble of feelings in my head.

@sparklychristmaslights Glad you're finding the support here useful.

I totally understand your need for closure. Some on here will say it's a waste of time; others will say it was what they needed to do. I am in the latter camp, because like you, I needed closure, and although it didn't go quite in the direction my little Inner Child hoped for, I don't regret it at all. I gave my father the chance to acknowledge his behaviour and rebuild our relationship in a more balanced way, and he reacted like a classic narcissist. If anything, it made everything more real (no more "that was all so long ago, maybe I made it up, it wasn't that bad anyway...") and validated my ultimate decision to end our relationship. I would say three things: 1) Perhaps wait until you have started therapy and see how well you get on with your therapist. If you do decide to confront, their support will be invaluable, and it will be good for you to suss out if you feel like you will be with them long-ish term. 2) Be prepared for every eventuality if you get back in touch, including the one/s that will cause you the most emotional pain. And 3) Whatever choice you make, there will be people on here who support your decision, and dust you off when it all goes tits up, which it probably will.... We're all here for a reason and it's not because we have lovely, supportive, self-reflective, apologetic parents unfortunately!

it is very sad and it is very painful but ultimately it is in our long term best interests to see them through clear eyes and accept that this is how they are.
Understand the nature of the predator/exploiter/abuser and protect yourself from them
these types do not do equal relationships, they only want master-servant/predator-prey/me tarzan-you Jane
they will only ever try to dominate you.

I gave my father the chance to acknowledge his behaviour and rebuild our relationship in a more balanced way
I have done similar, presented an opportunity to co-operate and play nice, well that is how it looked to me, but to the lion I just look like a baby antelope offering up it's throat.
If a predator smells vulnerability their instinct is to attack, they do not enjoy cooperation and compromise, they seek only to conquer.

@Ulterego Absolutely, couldn't agree more. What to us is decent and mature, to these people is vulnerable, "crazy" and an offense to their entire ego. It's so exhausting and I'm so glad to be free!

a predatory parent is a dangerous creature.
The most successful predators are those who know their prey very well, a parent has watched you grow and instinctively knows how to precisely place their attack under the radar to cause maximum pain with the least damage to them or their reputation.

Hi everyone,

I've posted here before under different usernames.

I'm extremely stressed and emotional atm. DS is constantly ill with infections and have been referred to the hospital finally! He is now complaining of bad tummy pains and crying in pain so obviously this has stressed me today.

Had to go to parents to pick DS medication up. I was so emotional so sat in the toilet and cried my eyes out while DS played with my parents. I'd calmed down and tried to put on a face but obviously i was not happy and parent could see i had been crying. DS was oblivious hes on 3.5. He was playing a game and put my in "jail" and i played along saying why was i here for. F then chirps up because you're grumpy. Usually i would let comments like this slide and brush them off. Even though i wouldnt like them anyway but i was upset and thought no, i'm sticking up for myself. I said to him why say that when im clearly upset. My M stuck up for him with the classic "hes only playing". I replied well i dont find it funny. I began welling up but also feeling anger and i just had to leave so said to my DS come on we have to go now. My F scoffed and laughed. Walked into the kitchen WHISTLING! How unempathetic can you get.
I walked out and ignored myDM while she shouted after me, i havent done nothing wrong. She then proceeded to hang out her bedroom window and ask what my problem was. I ignored her and drove off. No way was i about to have an arguement in front of my DS. I hated witnessing my parents screaming at each other whilst growing up.

So i text my M telling her why i was annoyed at her for sticking up for my F. I then get a text from F not M, apologising. Then saying how my M is now crying and stressed too as shes had a bad week! What the hell! Talk about turning it back to her as the victim.

I am so fed up of them not supporting me at all. It's like the can't listen to me and my emotions. But its fine for my M to offload her issues on me and expect to offer her advice. I am fed up of them disregarding my feelings. I am fed up of being called names. I am fed up of being treated like a child. I am so angry!!

@Winterwonderland10 that is really crappy of them. Especially when your son is ill. How cruel. Can you try to avoid them at stressful times in future? They are obviously not on your side.

F not M, apologising. Then saying how my M is now crying and stressed too as shes had a bad week! What the hell! Talk about turning it back to her as the victim
classic 'darvo' (Deny Accuse Reverse Victim and Offender)
I began welling up but also feeling anger and i just had to leave
I can relate, you need to have an adult to adult conversation but they have 'triggered' you into child mode and it's just such a powerful trigger, like a spell they put you under, the only sound that will come out is 'WAHHH I HATE YOU WAHHH' and you are defenseless.

I would never ever treat my AC's like that, it would be an abuse of power and I would deserve to be impeached.
Your parents should be removed from office forthwith!!
(((hugs)))

@ScabbyHorse i have now begun to realise i cannot turn to my parents in time of need. It's so sad because they should be the people to go to first. My M always turns herself into the victim and says my issues stress her out. She no support.

I've never heard of 'darvo' @Ulterego sounds familar though. They did trigger me and there was no way i was losing my cool in front of DS. I also don't want to look like the bad guy because i know M would love to say to DS mummy was bad shouting at me wasnt she.

Although i have alot of anger and sadness atm. I also feel proud of myself. I never before would have stuck up for myself. A small part of me is changing after the work i've begun to do. I no longer want to be a doormat. The family pushover

We have a flying monkey added in now. My sis had just messaged me a random text. Prob will go into fishing about M

They always need someone to blame. If you're not there, it can't be you so someone else will have to step up and have a turn

Reading this was like having a lightbulb go off. Thank you @SingingLily

Hope you are doing okay, Jamon.

Sometimes it's a case of one step forward and two steps back but as Churchill once said, "When you're going through hell, the only thing you can do is to keep going".

Mind you, he'd never met my mother.

WinterWonderland

So sorry to read about your DS and hope you get answers soon.

You probably don't have much in the way of boundaries when it comes to your parents probably because your mother in particular has never really encouraged you to have any.

Do read more about DARVO as well.

People from dysfunctional families end up playing roles; what has been your assigned role here in your family of origin?. My guess FWIW is that you are part of a narcissistic family structure with your sister (now indeed acting as a flying monkey) more favoured. Women like your mother cannot do relationships and they always need a willing enabler to help them, in this case your dad. He has also abjectly failed you as a parent too because he has failed completely to protect you from your mother.

My counsel to you is to ignore your sister's text and do not reply to it. She is not interested in hearing your side of things at all so her opinion should be ignored. Ultimately you should have no contact at all with any of these people.