"But we took you to Stately Homes" November 2019 onwards thread

[toomuchtooold]

It's November 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
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July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
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Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
May-August 2019
August-October 2019
October-November 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Thank you Lily and Ulter i have stepped back from it, but I have been struggling the last week or so with flashbacks that aren't clear enough for me to process, it is really hard for me to explain, I am just carrying on as normal so I am OK but I can't understand this increase in anxiety after all these years

Good morning, Lex, hope you managed to get some sleep.

You had some fantastically sensible responses on that thread and I'm glad, because it helped you to see this for what it is - not your problem and not your responsibility.

Unfortunately, you've had some worrying revelations since then. It's perfectly OK if you'd rather not say what they are but if I'm reading your posts right, they've unsettled you again and you are having flashbacks. I am so sorry for this. You've survived the most awful childhood, managed to build a safe and happy life for yourself and your family against all the odds, and now that's being shaken up again - almost certainly for something you were not responsible for and you had absolutely no control over. So, deep breaths now, because the only people who matter in all of this right now are your own DH, your own DC...and most importantly, you.

Yes, flashbacks and anxiety are common - even normal, I would say. You are a normal person reacting in a normal way to an extraordinarily awful childhood. I'd be more worried about you if you didn't have any sort of reaction at all. This doesn't mean that those terrible flashbacks don't come at you sideways and knock you for six. Of course, they do. You might even feel as though you are suffering temporary madness when they happen, because they leave you reeling.

It's your mind and your body trying to make sense of something that's happened. Something that frightened you at the time but you froze in fear or your mind and body shut down because they couldn't process at the time.

It sounds counter-intuitive but please try to see this as a positive thing, because it's an entirely healthy response to a particularly awful situation that has probably been bubbling away quietly in the recesses of your mind and negatively affected you and your life in subtle ways.

The question is, what would help you best now?

This is a safe space if you want to talk. Whatever is causing you these horrible flashbacks, I can guarantee someone on the thread will have suffered similar and will help. Do you also have someone in RL you feel able to talk to? Would counselling help?

Take your time, Lex. You've done amazingly well to make a good life for yourself and your family. You are a fighter and a survivor. You will get through this too. 💐

Good morning, Jollybobs, hope you managed to get some sleep too.

First things first.

This is just a very tiny amount of issues (maybe they aren't issues I don't know but I'm struggling) I feel like I'm conditioned to always feel like I'm/we are in the wrong me and my sister.

Yes, they absolutely are issues and I have no doubt - no doubt whatsoever - that what you describe is just the tip of a lifelong iceberg. Your mother really leaves you with no choice in the matter. She is too toxic for you to be around and now that you have a little girl and another on the way, you have to keep them safe. Not just from the unhealthy and unsafe physical environment she creates around her but also her constant digs, criticism, sniping and undermining.

When you and your sister were little, she gave you no choice but to survive as best you could in that environment but now as a mother yourself, you are doing absolutely the right thing by putting your children's health, happiness and emotional wellbeing first and foremost. All credit to you.

I do understand the guilt, really I do. That was planted in us by the parents who failed us. It is reinforced by society's expectations and conventions - you know what I mean: honour thy father and thy mother; blood is thicker than water; families stick together. That's nonsense. Healthy families stick together. Families like ours would be quite mad to do so. The time of year doesn't help either: all those ads on television with happy supportive families gathered round the table, laughing and sharing. Those ads are selling a dream, one that we do not share because our parents decided when we were born that their wishes and desires were far more important than meeting our basic needs when we were helpless infants and needy toddlers and vulnerable children.

So, Jollybobs, the guilt will eat at you but only to begin with. It starts to ebb away after a while. There will be days when you wobble - we all have wobbly days - but those wobbles will become fewer and further apart. What does help on those days is to have some way of reminding yourself exactly why you are NC. You have one adorable reason right in front of you, and one on the way. You are being a proper Mum; the one you deserved when you were their age but didn't get. You are being strong and doing the hard thing now so that your children don't have to.

It also helps if you remember to be kind to yourself on those days. Keep busy, distract yourself, have small treats, go for a walk. And vent on here. Post as much or as little as you want, as often as you want. The support will always be here for you. 💐

Good morning, Steve, last but very far from being least!

What can I say? Even when you are in pain, you still manage to reach out with kindness and compassion to others.

Please, please, be kind to yourself now.

Please also find a way to ringfence your birthday so that you only spend it with the ones you love and who love you. Lie about your plans if you have to. It won't stop your deep anxiety about expectations on Christmas Day but it will give you the chink of light you will need just to get through it.

@SingingLily well thank you so much for your reply and kindness you actually made me cry this morning!

Yes we are 100% made to feel that we should honour our parents, she is constantly saying that we should respect her and that she raised us and therefore we owe her.

I guess what's difficult is I feel guilty for cutting her off from DD as I feel bad for her that she will miss out! However it's her own doing. She has very little family and friends round her, my brother has recently got back in touch after no contact with her after 7 years and he is definitely the golden child now constantly being told that he's got her back and he agrees with her.

I need to make the decision for myself and my family your right just feel like there's always that cloud over me of worry. But like you said it will soon lift I've done it before I can do it again.

Lex234 I have so much sympathy and admiration for you. You say you can't understand the increased anxiety now after all these years but something has happened that has forced you to think about it, especially when you've had to contemplate having contact with someone so dangerous. Like Singinglily said, it would be more worrying if you weren't having some kind of reaction. Be kind to yourself.

He said he has information for my mum and said he wants to meet me.

That is by absolute definition a manipulative ploy. Even how you have worded it, how you are interpreting it for us, is like a fishing line to draw you back in. “The bait” is you’ll be doing something important for your mum and the hook, how he wants to see you and your Dsis.

I don't want either of them involved.

Unfortunately while I am sure you are 100% right that they should not meet him either they are adults and have to make these decisions for themselves so they can make their own peace with the situation.

My partner says he'll come along too, they have never met.

That would be a good idea of that is what you decide to do.

This is still a bad idea isn't it?

I think only you can decide this. You have to be happy with the choice you make for your own peace of mind.

Chocmallows

So your dad has information for your mother but wants to meet you?.

Yeah right. This is yet more manipulation from him, he is really trying to pull at your strings here by using you (and anyone else you care to bring along). Its also a widely used tactic in the arsenal of toxic parents. He has not changed in all the years he has been your dad.

No good will come of meeting him, I would strongly urge you not to attend.

jollybobs

Re your comment:-
"Yes we are 100% made to feel that we should honour our parents, she is constantly saying that we should respect her and that she raised us and therefore we owe her."

Owe her what?. You do not owe her anything least of all a relationship here. After all, respect and relationships also work both ways. She never respected you and just wants you around to serve her whilst putting your own self last.

She was not a good parent to you when you were growing up and you should not feel at all guilty about not putting your children in her firing line either. What would your DD actually be missing out on. Children need emotionally healthy grandparents and this person does not fit the bill. She could well go onto harm them not too dissimilarly as to how you have been harmed yourself.

Chockmallows,
He won't get help from a professionals to deal with his problems because it suits him better to 'keep' them and use them to manipulate people.
If he has a message for your mother then he needs to speak to her obviously, it's transparently an attempt to lure you in so he can feel like the puppet master, it will just be the same old stupid games and the older he gets the greater will be his need to manipulate you.

Yep, they can insist until they are blue in the face that they want to be honoured but personally I'm not going to honour them unless I can see anything honourable.... and I sure as hell don't.
Or to put it another way 'you chose to have a child and after the way you raised me I am so fucked up I can barely cope with own life, I have nothing left to help you... You're on your own mate'

Jollybob I have been NC with my F for 5 months now. At first although I didn't regret making the decision after last straw incident that involved him shouting down phone at DD2 (11), I felt renewed grief (always grieved for childhood I didn't have) and plenty of guilt (he's in his 80s) but it does slowly get better. Being able to pour out my feelings here and receive empathetic advice from people who don't believe we should have a relationship with our parents if they treat us badly has really helped, also reading back through the threads, the out of the FOG website and other suggested reading materials on toxic parents. I will always feel sad about it, and I may always feel some guilt but its not what I think about as soon as I wake up every morning anymore. In terms of relationship between GP and GC, I think you have to question why they will make a better GP than P because if you allow that relationship then huge risk that they will behave just as badly towards your DC. It might take a while, but eventually its highly likely to happen. I had a vision of my F redeeming himself for all the wrongs to me by being a good GF, but that wasn't based on reality. And in fact I think old age just made him worse and even less accepting of generational differences. I suppose in some ways I am glad that I gave him that chance so I have no doubts in my mind, but the stress this caused me over the years as I witnessed him acting just as he always had, and worrying it might damage my DC's self-esteem probably wasn't worth it. And perhaps he has damaged their self-esteem; he certainly didn't do anything to help them become the confident, self-assured adults that I hope they will. In other words, I don't want them to become like me, and he is a massive part of why I am like I am.

With people who are domineering or superior there seems to be an inevitable trajectory, as they get older and feel their agency declining they grasp at anything they can, whatever levers they can pull to try and get back to that sense of being in command of things, the lying and the manipulating ...it all just ramps up

The 'I gave up so much for you, you owe me' attitude to raising children REALLY pisses me off - sorry! No, you made a life-style choice and having children was part of that. I choose to work hard and make sacrifices so I can make a good life for my family AND MYSELF, but that's my choice and my children don't owe me anything. I hope they will want to have a relationship with me when they are adults because they enjoy my company, not because they feel they have to.

@SingingLilyand @FreshStart01 thank you for such kind replies ❤
The flashbacks are more feelings but really vivid if that makes sense? There have been some pretty awful skeletons hauled out of the closet and I don't know how far I am involved in it. I feel like I have blacked out so much. I don't know. I am so confused right now.

Haven't posted for a while. Situ with parents has got worse and worse. Some bitter arguments and the blame for their circumstances that is coming my way is twisted. Have told them I don't want to see them over Xmas. And now she's kicking off... my anxiety is bad.

@FreshStart01 that is exactly my parents. But we did EVERYTHING for you. They think parenting is money.

The anxiety is awful isn't don't. Their behaviour gets worse the more you pull away.

@Littleshortcake she's saying I'm denying access to grandchildren etc. I just want some space away from them and a peaceful Christmas. They can't say and do all of this stuff and then expect me to behave like nothings happened.

That's what mine say too. It's nice to have the headspace away from the twistedness isn't it. But the guilt is always there.

My brother hasn't contacted me in years unless I go home and he happens to be there. He doesnt know where we live since moving. Yet he says I have disowned them because I refuse to stay in battle and put up with the mood swings. Rages crying and so on.

Their behaviour gets worse the more you pull away
they dont want to lose their source of fuel, narcissistic supply or whatever you like to call it
of course the predator will pushback when it's prey tries to break free, just cut them dead, it's the only way to be free

But the guilt is always there

Littleshort I think you can work to reduce that guilt over time. There is so little you can do to deal within the confines of an entirely dysfunctional family to put things right. Once you truly get rid of your responsibility in causing the dysfunction, easier said that done, then the guilt seriously diminishes. The tones for family dynamics and interactions are set down by parents. If they cause, facilitate, allow and pour fire on abusive behaviours during childhood then those patterns are set down for life. We have a role to play within that dynamic and if we refuse to play the role and put up with the dysfunctional behaviour then how are we the guilty one? We are not.

We have a role to play within that dynamic and if we refuse to play the role and put up with the dysfunctional behaviour then how are we the guilty one? We are not.

A very good point by Myduck.

And once you've stepped away from your role and refused to play the game, they can no longer point to your behaviour as unreasonable because there is no longer anything to point to. It's gone, disappeared over the horizon. Absence is the great gaping hole in their shield.

They always need someone to blame. If you're not there, it can't be you so someone else will have to step up and have a turn.

Hi everyone, this thread was pointed out to me as perhaps being useful for me so I'm hoping I can join you all. I'm going through a bit of a tricky time at the moment and feeling quite 'empty'...I posted the following on my own thread...

I'm feeling really lost at the moment and I think it's stemming from my relationship with my Dad.

He and my mum broke up when I was really young and for a few years I saw him a few times a month. He got remarried and gradually saw him less due to not feeling that welcome in their home and my mum making things as awkward as she could for him. I didn't see him at all from about 14-18. I should state that during my childhood my DM was emotionally, and at times, physically abusive to me. Anyway, we somehow rekindled our relationship to some extent and saw each other every so often for a good few years, in this time I got married and had my own DC. We didn't have the relationship I wanted with a dad, never did anything together and conversation was always a little stunted but him and his wife visited us and we visited them. I thought things were finally getting back on track.

However, a few years ago this started to fizz out and despite asking to meet, there always seemed to be an excuse why they couldn't. This went on for a while and I decided to put the ball firmly in his court, stating that me and his grandchildren would love to see him and we were always free on x,y,z days he just had to let me know. I've not heard anything since then, about 2.5 years ago. In that time we've had the occasional birthday card but now even that has stopped.

I suppose I'm looking for advice on what it is that could've gone wrong or what I should do? I don't know if it is Christmas approaching but it's eating me up inside and making me question what is wrong with me that neither of my parents seem to love or really care about me. I’m a good and kind person who lives as best as I can, normal family life, good job so I’m not sure where I’ve gone wrong. I am starting counselling very soon which I'm hoping will help me a bit but in the meantime would love some advice or to hear from others in similar circumstances.

Thank you if you've read this far.