"But we took you to Stately Homes" November 2019 onwards thread

[toomuchtooold]

It's November 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
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December 2013
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December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
May-August 2019
August-October 2019
October-November 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

CountdowntoChristmas, my father was like that in some ways he was lovely when the kids were little such a fun grandad, they absolutely loved him, I felt really bad revealing that he sympathised with the paedophile who abused his own daughter. I feel as if I transformed fun grandad into a monster, sabotaged all their lovely memories, vandalised the blue Peter garden, and of course the question now is how could I let such a man anywhere near my children.
He's not overtly abusive but the subtle digs, the steely determination that it's his way or no way, I just can't be arsed with him anymore

Then you have every reason in the world to plan and enjoy your Christmas with your DH, children and your lovely in-laws, CountdowntoChristmas. No one needs that kind of nastiness in their life, especially at this time of the year.

I used to wear myself out trying to create the perfect Christmas for my toxic family. Cooking, cleaning, hosting sleepovers, catering to every whim. There were twelve of us at the dinner table with another six the following day. My DSis, who was the perennial scapegoat, went along with it because she wanted her little girls to grow up with happy memories of Christmas with the extended family, even though those happy memories came at a cost to her and to me. It was exhausting.

No more.

This year, DH and I are going to DSis's again, laden with good wine and presents and festive good cheer, just like last year. We'll have a great time.

GC sister will be away with her fabulous friends. GC brother will be doing his solitary pub crawl. Widowed mother will be, well, sitting in her flat (the one I'm not welcome in) and doing, well, whatever. Because she has finally reached the logical conclusion of her life's work as a mother. And she can't say she wasn't warned.

My advice to everyone not looking forward to Christmas? Make your plans now. Make them to suit yourself. Stick to them. And post on here, as often or as little as you want. Post as much or as little as you want. We will help each other through this time, just as we always do.

Finally reached the logical conclusion of her life's work
I think this is a great way of putting it Singinglily, I think that many of the behaviours the maneuvers and the strategies that we see arise from a desire to avoid the logical conclusion of their life's work, then again perhaps many of them just could not foresee a time when their child would not bow down to them?

@SingingLily Because she has finally reached the logical conclusion of her life's work as a mother. And she can't say she wasn't warned.

I'm going to have this in my head like a mantra.

SingingLily her life's work - that is a perfect way to put it!

Mine hasn't been invited for Christmas this year, for first time in several years. Luckily, she won't ask outright but will just lip tremble at her husband and wonder why, oh why, after all she has done for us.

She has fucked up our last few Christmases, sucking all the joy out of the day, and last year I said never again. I'm sick of waiting on her while she looks miserable because she isn't the centre of attention.

I've booked a table at a nice restaurant for the whole family for the week before Christmas - we can meet up, swap presents, she can talk my ear off, ignore her grandchildren, my ex-golden child brother can bore on about how knowledgeable he is on any subject, I'll foot the bill after a couple of hours, and I can walk away, knowing that Christmas will be spent with people who I really love.

She and her horrible husband can spend their Christmas together - in their miserable undecorated home, with their 'posh dinner', wondering why her children are so neglectful, and we will be laughing and joking and eating and playing games with no disapproving spectre at the feast.

and we will be laughing and joking and eating and playing games with no disapproving spectre at the feast.

Perfect, Polly, that sounds perfect. That's what we'll be doing, my beloved DSis and I, with our two families.

Can't wait.

Ulterego, ScatteredMama, go for it! Make your plans now. Someone you love and who makes you happy? ✅ They're on the list. Anyone else, block.

I agree , I realised a few years ago that arranging family gatherings were exhausting and I was only doing it to keep everyone happy . I'd invite my family round my mum would be tipsy and my dad would be glum because he hated my mum having a drink , it was exhausting trying to keep the peace, and no invitation was ever returned. I think that's one of the reasons my dad is hostile he expects everyone to do things to keep him happy . A few years ago I was having a stressful time with builders so stayed with in laws while house was finished . I was stressed financially as well as the time as it overrun and it was near Christmas. Never once did my parents offer us to come to theirs or help with the dc . The smack in the face was my dad comparing my dB decorated his lounge all by himself to us having a double extension . DB is like some sort of hero because he decorated ffs . And when I told them I was stressed instead of a sympathetic ear I was told off for upsetting my mum so near to Christmas. They didn't want to know about my stresses as they wanted to be happy as it was Christmas.
After that I decided I need to do what was good for me , my dh and dc and my parents and siblings can lump it so now I'm the selfish one .
I've also realised that it was forced Christmas fun with my family. My dad was all excited for Christmas so everyone else had to be and if you weren't running around with excitement because let's face it adults don't , kids I'd expect he'd be really off with you .
It was all fake like everyone was expected to put this smile on and be happy and excited just to keep him happy .

Hero I enjoy little things with dd. Putting up the Xmas decorations this weekend, watching her own her advent calendar. I don't really get time outside or off but wish I could push myself to be a little active.

I have a diagnosis, it's both severe anxiety and severe depression. This is from an NHS consultant. They were looking at a personality disorder. Not bipolar because my mood fluctuates very rapidly so it doesn't fit. I'm assuming borderline would be a logical guess though they didn't say so. They diagnosed then said there are no NHS services on offer. That's why I'm considering finding a private therapist.

I didn’t mean to push you into revealing what you’re struggling with, that’s sounds incredibly hard to deal with. My suggestions aren’t really very useful, sorry.

If you can afford to access private help then go for it, have you had any recommendations?

Hi PollyDangerCrackers

Re your comment:-
"I've booked a table at a nice restaurant for the whole family for the week before Christmas - we can meet up, swap presents, she can talk my ear off, ignore her grandchildren, my ex-golden child brother can bore on about how knowledgeable he is on any subject, I'll foot the bill after a couple of hours, and I can walk away, knowing that Christmas will be spent with people who I really love".

You could be writing about my inlaws here because with some details altered this is how MIL behaves around us all (I can certainly relate to the ignoring of us all except her darling boy, my H). I had them here once many years ago, never ever again would I put myself through it. When DH had popped out of the living room this woman brought me a lunchbox sized bottle of Evian water out to me saying, "this is for your BIL" (he received tap water).

You're better than me though because I certainly would not ever book a table for such people. BIL told us years ago he no longer celebrates Christmas (but he will eat turkey and sit there with his mother who he still lives with) so I do not have that problem to deal with. Hell will freeze over before he ever sets foot in this house.

All that and more besides from her is why we have gone on holiday during the festive for the last few years. This year though for various reasons I am at home but next year we'll be going away again.

Christmas Day for us will be DH, me and DS at home. My parents are not all that bothered about Christmas and whether they see us or not and my brother is on holiday. I do smile wryly to myself when I see all these family type ads on the tv; some are lucky to have this but many many others do not.

AttilaTheMeekat I'm hoping that by next year, I'll be strong enough to not see them at all, but I waivered and wobbled this year, and booked a table for them all, just to give myself some control. This'll be only the third time I've seen my mother this year (we don't message in between either so quite low contact) but I still feel guilty and not quite ready for the final leap into no contact.

As a weird aside, I'm not a great one got dreams, but I had a dream last night where I pinned my mother against the wall, shouting I see you! I see you! so I think this thread is rekindling my anger which I think is healthier than the false hope that I've lived with for so long.

Oh blimey Polly, that’s an interesting dream!

I had one recently where I bumped into mine in the street and she looked all unkempt and tatty. Awful.

When I read about your plan I felt quite anxious, it’s what we did last year essentially. Now we’re not playing happy families anymore I wonder how I ever found the strength for it.

@my favouriterain you are valued. Your mother may not appreciate you but I doubt she appreciates anyone, but your child does. You are the centre of her life and you're doing an amazing job to give her the childhood none of us had.

@countdowntilchristmas it is exhausting arranging family events isn't it! It's a massive effort to organise the smallest with my family and it's always me arranging it.

Had my 1st counselling session after a 18 month gap today. The new counsellor seems nice, just takes a while to build a relationship doesn't it. Think I was in there 10 mins and then the tears started and I hardly every cry in front of anyone! Was a relief to just get loads of stuff off my chest!! I really hope this helps. Just want to get to the bottom of my issues now. But I know I have to go back to my past to do it.

Glad it was a good beginning @Jinglebells10 🙂

Hoya I'm not posting much lately but still lurking ha ha. Just wanted to recommend a book/audiobook, it's 'healing your emotional self' by Beverly Engel and it's given me a lot of moments where I have thought 'yeah, that makes sense' if you know what I mean? It has exercises and stuff to do but essentially it's about shattering your parental mirror. And wouldn't we all like to be able to do that?! X

My fucking mother
I’ve had a difficult relationship with her through my childhood, my teens and my adulthood. She’s always been incredibly controlling, and, although, it’s hard to admit, she was physically abusive to me as a child. This didn’t happen to my brothers - one brother was the apple of my dad’s eye and my younger brother was my mum’s. I felt continually pushed out, ignored, under-valued. Somehow I managed, largely through rebellion, and I ended up going to Oxford. I have no memory of her being proud of my achievement. All through my teens, she tried to control me from bloody stupid things like my handwriting to me not choosing to stay at my snobby comp where I was told I was too thick to go to university. She was furious about this as she was on the PTA and “how would it look”. Is all of this narcissism? Fast forward, 20 or so years and I have bipolar. I’m managing to hang on to my now part-time career but it’s hard. She never asks about my medication or my treatment. Is this normal? My aunt had bipolar and my mum looked after her - I felt it wasn’t her thinking it was her duty but her demonstrating how “good” she was. I live with my partner (she has a better relationship with him than me) and her cat. I rarely see her (we don’t have that kind of relationship unless it’s something where she will be seen in the parish, she’s a pillar of the local community) Now she looks after an elderly neighbour - my mum enjoys the control, I think - and one of my brothers had to tell my mum to be “kind” when dealing with this poor woman’s hoarding. Again, there’s a great show of being caring despite a great deal of bitching. I’ve stopped asking for very much. I don’t drive any more because of my meds but I asked her to drive me to the vets with my very ill cat on Friday. Nope, can’t do as she’s taking the elderly neighbour shopping. Surely, FFS this could wait just one time. This sounds like a childish response but I’ve had this denial and push-pull all my life. She makes me feel stupid and as if I’m making this up. Bloody sick of it.

@MonkeyfromManchester - oh god, my mother has spent her entire life worrying about 'how it would look'. Every tiny thing is considered from a position of 'What would people think'. Who? Who are the people who follow her every move? And I was made to stay in my bedroom for a whole weekend (meals included) writing and rewriting words until my mother thought my handwriting was neater (though never neat enough) - I was 7 and at a school open day where nothing negative had been said about me my mother had seen my school books and deemed them messy and marched out of the school by the arm in a rage clearly visible to everyone - if there was a moment to worry about what people thought that was probably a good one. I was terrified of parents evenings/open days etc from that point on, not an unfounded fear. as it turned out. With my mother a lot of the stuff to do with education was inherited behaviour from her own mother - and yes that is an excuse.

I love the fact you went to Oxford. I'm also really pleased you're managing to hang on to your career despite everything you're going through. And I'm sorry your cat has been ill. Despite the lack of a lift did you manage to get to the vets?

@Getoffmylilo
Thank you so much. It feels like a very lonely place dealing with someone like this who, for all intents and purposes, is so perfect. Do you feel guilty, and at the same time utterly shit for having these feelings. I’m really sorry your mum behaved like that to you. God, I recognise the fear of what waited at home for my terrible behaviour (which wasn’t really!) what’s the big fucking deal with nice handwriting? Copperplate died out in the 19th century. Yeah, Oxford seems like a good thing but it was a bloody hothouse and not good for the bipolar. We took the cat in tonight as his breathing wasn’t good - he’s only two and a tough thing - he’s home now after a jab. Cardiologist on Friday and my mum can enjoy shopping/lunch/WTAF else on Friday. I think this is why I never had kids.

Hi @MonkeyfromManchester if you’ve been conditioned to feel guilt and fear from early childhood then it’s entirely normal to struggle with those feelings as an adult.

Most of us here know about that private terror/public perfection feeling, and having no understanding of how to exist normally within it.

Being vulnerable and reliant on her is keeping you in that place. It’s hard to find independence from it but I think you should take as many steps as you can manage to phase her out wherever possible.

I hope your cat gets better. 💐

Hi @MonkeyfromManchester if you’ve been conditioned to feel guilt and fear from early childhood then it’s entirely normal to struggle with those feelings as an adult

This is so true. I still can be absolutely paralysed by guilt. My mother was the queen of shaming. It is an awful feeling if you have been primed all your life to take excessive responsibility for whatever is happening around you.

@Herocomplex @myduckiscooked
Thank you both. The guilt at feeling bad about her is really hard. I feel so angry towards underneath and it comes to the surface sometimes. Often when I’m heading towards a manic phase - my head gives me permission. I fo love her (but it is so complex) she is very good to me but it is clouded in childhood memories that I can’t shake off sometimes. I never fully trust her if you see what I mean. I don’t want to phase her out but I’m going back to psychotherapy. I’ve had it twice - at university and in my 30s and it made a difference to me. I am so incredibly angry, I think. It’s hard to distinguish the anger emotionally with the anger/irritability you get with bipolar. Even when I’ve been ill, there’s something anger related there. I want a way of dealing with it and I think psych will help. So grateful to my Italian psychiatrist (wow - so handsome and insightful - thank you NHS) for referring me to this. I didn’t talk aboit my mum but I did talk aboit the perfectionism I have and he completely understood. My mum is so incredibly busy with committees, volunteering, people that she often says “I feel like a terrible mother not getting in touch so much with you three”. I think she’s seeking our reassurance “oh it’s ok, mum, it’s fine” (actually, no, it’s fucking not and it never has been) she does this to assuage her guilt, and also when I think about it all this busyness stops her thinking/feeling anything. I think she had a difficult childhood where her mum was very “what will the neighbours think” and my mum rebelled, she didn’t go to university like her sisters, she worked in an office and didn’t marry a nice boy from the tennis club, she married my dad who was totally not what her socially ambitious parents wanted. My parents’ marriage was a good one until my dad died. Again, I’ve got anger there as he didn’t rescue me from the physical abuse or any of it, really.
He was a product of his background. God, it’s so Philip Larkin. The cat is better this morning after a trip to the vets last night. I have a feeling it’s not going to be the best outcome (Dr Google) but we will do everything. I really love that cat. Despite the myths, you do get unconditional love (although you are a supplier of food, a lap etc!) I’m going to hang out with him and try and do some work today.

Anger is the emotion telling you that something needs to change. That can be an internal or an external change but anger is the most important emotion we have for protecting ourselves from harm.

Hmm, I wondered why the old thread wasn't receiving posts, already so many on the new one too. Great it's receiving traffic but not so great there's so much dysfunction.

Anger is the emotion telling you that something needs to change. That can be an internal or an external change but anger is the most important emotion we have for protecting ourselves from harm.

God, yes. Sterling advice, I think I'm going to have that printed.

Your mum maybe did have a crappy childhood, but that’s not your fault and it’s not your responsibility to fix it. You’re not her consolation prize - the good daughter who soaks up her pain.

You can love someone but choose not to let them hurt you anymore. You’re allowed to have boundaries.

That is so true about the anger. For years after I left home, I was angry at my mother and it kept me alert to her spite, and that kept my boundaries firm. Over the last few years, however, she's offered olive branches (shitty, prickly, mouldy old olive branches, but still...) and in giving a mother/daughter relationship a go, the rage has ebbed away, along with some of those boundaries, and I have become very vulnerable. That has enabled her to hurt me quite badly.

This thread, and you wonderful people, are helping me to mentally kick arse again!