"But we took you to Stately Homes" November 2019 onwards thread

[toomuchtooold]

It's November 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
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December 2013
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May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
May-August 2019
August-October 2019
October-November 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

You have real insight to work with there and that was what I found too, once I knew the issues were I could literally work on them. I’ve had this tendency too to overexplain, an occupational hazard of PTSD maybe but I’ve tried to put myself in others shoes now listening too it and with the exception of some very carefully selected friends I don’t do it anymore at all or extremely rarely. I try to keep everything else light and breezy so if I’m not feeling up for light and breezy I go with stay and home and self care instead. It is all a learning process and I’m no where near the finished article but my DH thinks that outside of my dealing with extended family I am like a different person much more calm and easy.

I missed the bit myfavourite where you said everybody else is better off without you. I am so sorry I didn’t address that. That is most certainly absolutely not true. For some of us, due to our circumstances and history, the number of people we can get really properly close too might be small at various times in our life but the value we have as a person does not come from that. The value we have comes from the fact that same as the pebbles on the beach, the icebergs in Antarctica and the mountains in the Himalayas, we belong here. We deserve to be here. This is the right place for us. The fact that other people have devalued and damaged us and made us feel wring does not take away from us having every right to be here and belong here. You can build up your circle when you are ready, but that is not what makes you valuable you are valuable simply for just being you. You really are.

Thank you myduck that makes sense... Except the second bit. I have no doubt you believe it and I'd love to, but I don't. I have value as a mother, that's it. Not as an employee, I would be replaced rapidly. Not as a daughter, not really. Just as a mother.

@myfavouriteterain - firstly you're valuable just by being here and being you but also because you want to give your daughter the most normal life possible and take her in to consideration. That in itself is a million miles away from so many of the experiences on here. Secondly I agree with Hero about the small interactions being important, just touching base with other people. Kind words and a smile, a simple exchange with anyone face-to-face, whether it be the person on the check out or the bus driver or someone at the bus stop, it's all good.

I think they’re called ‘micro-interactions’ @getoffmylilo, I read a piece about them a little while ago. Once I started valuing the small interactions I have everyday instead of just not noticing them, I realised how much I can get from them. I’m not making friends with these people, just noticing and acknowledging a smile, a chat, a wave to a neighbour.
I also smile at dogs and babies.
It sounds a bit odd, but it’s worth it.

@myfavouriterain I agree with @Getoffmylilo, we value you here! This amazing thread wouldn’t be here without everyone who contributes, it’s the one thing that gets me through the difficult bits quite often!

Not as an employee, I would be replaced rapidly. Not as a daughter, not really.

I am totally the same in that regard no question. There is massive value in being a mother but even without that there is value, your value for yourself. It is always going to be the first thing that goes when people harm you badly, but it can come back. There is a value there that can be repaired.

When my parents pulled away from me, my whole foundation was gone and it made me feel first them, what next?? my husband? and then my children would be better off without me too because I was no good to anyone. It was so destabilising and that was coming from a pretty low self esteem base. But I actually now genuinely believe what I wrote above. I believe I own my place in the world, it is my right to be here as much as any other thing that has been put in the universe (I am not in the least bit religious so it is not that) even if other people would rather I was out of the picture so their life would be easier, I still deserve and own my place here. That was the crucial thing I didn’t ever even kind of believe before that I have come to believe now. I drew all my value before from what I meant to other people.

The small interactions can be huge. When I had my dogs I really valued the chit chat I had with others I came across on our walks. Or even just the friendly wave on a regular basis. It’s worth noticing these interactions and continuing those that make you feel good.

Hello all, hope you’re coping well with the hectic holiday season...

Wanted to ask how your nfolks are regarding your personal expression & when you like something different to them. I’m luckier than many other people & was given a nice cushy middle class life, my folks came from working class so they have indeed given us a better life than what they had! So feel bad to complain about what others will see as silly little things... it’s just some things I see has silly have created such huge rifts with my mother, sometimes feel am going crazy.

Basically am the odd one out in my family. More alt/creative I guess. Big issues over the last few years have been my campervan & painting it, fashion sense, left field jobs, moving into a sharehouse, my mother & in turn my father who is always on her side have reacted in ways which I would say are completely over the top - alternating between passive aggressive, silent treatment & hysteria.

In particular the left field jobs & campervan have caused the most friction, to the point where have been no/low contact for months...

Is it normal to cut your child off because they wanted to paint their truck & for getting a job as a retail manager at an adult store? These both things that made me happy & I have been called some pretty horrid things over these, what I perceive to be personal choices that aren’t anyone else’s business or affect anyone else. I am not allowed to park the van outside their house (they say what will the neighbours think) & last time I did it led to an argument where my father physically kicked me & told me to leave & never come back. Of course this all blew over... is it normal to care so much what people think & hate a purple van to the point you would tell your kid to gtfo? It was parked on street not driveway.

In withering, dripping with sarcasm tones have been told am just trying to “be edgy” and “create an identity” form myself & aren’t I embarrassed that people will think I’m weird, or stupid etc. She wonders why I am “content with mediocrity”.

Just feel her judgement is so strong...in turn my father yells at me to obey my mother, he seems to think everyone in the family should just be happy & peaceful & get along. The problem is that means bowing down to my mothers wants, in order for that to happen.

I Wish they could be more like other family members who are happy to laugh at crazy little prawn, but don’t seem to judge or take offence that their cousin is a bit of a bohemian....

I feel this problem has caused me to be in some abusive relationships, as just want to be loved & accepted for who I am. Not the job I have, clothes I wear & car I drive.

I actually dress quite well but do lean towards tomgirl type fashion & know my mother would like me to dress prettier.

I feel so guilty for hating her... or not hate, just this huge absence in my heart where loving your Mum should be. I feel so rejected as a person...that now it only takes the smallest thing & I feel a coldness coming over me towards her.

Am sure she hates who I am, would bet my life on it. But I only hate her because she hates me first, if that makes sense.

Sorry this is totally all over the place.

Getoffmylilo, for all the people who post on here, there are many many more who just read because they struggle to find the words, but - for a little while at least - they find some comfort in knowing that they are not the only ones suffering. Your posts are thoughtful and sensitive. You express complicated thoughts and feelings so clearly.

So yes, you have very real value. Never doubt it.

Every time you share your experiences and thoughts on here, you are actually helping others to not feel quite so alone. I'd say that was pretty valuable.

Sorry you are having a tough time, prawnsword. I'm fortunate to live in a part of the West Country where alternative lifestyles are accepted but realise that not everywhere is like that.

Is your parents' disapproval a relatively recent thing in your life? Do you have siblings and do they also lead alternative lifestyles but nothing is said? That would be something I would recognise.

Self-expression and wanting something different to my parents was never my problem, you see. I tried hard to be the perfect daughter, turning myself into a 24/7 taxi and concierge service for them, just trying to earn a few crumbs of their love and approval. It didn't work. My mother doesn't love me. Never has, never will. I am either useful to her or not useful and this determines how she behaves towards me. If I threw myself on a fire to keep her warm, it still wouldn't be good enough - which is why I stopped doing it.

It's good that you are determined to be you. There's no other way to live a happy life. However, it wouldn't matter what I did or changed or achieved. I still wouldn't matter to my mother.

The Christmas season really seems to bring things to a head for us. MIL came to visit 2 weeks ago, and while she was here she accused DS2 (he's 5) of being addicted to screens (he's not, she'd been with us all weekend and the Sunday afternoon was the first time he'd been on the thing all weekend, he'd just got started and she was trying to talk to him and he didn't jump to attention the way she thinks he should have). DH is furious, she said it in front of DS1, and neither DH nor myself pulled her up on it as she was just about to leave and we just wanted her to go (I know, we should have at the time). DH has been stewing about it though. She has since sent DH a gift for his birthday, and he's planning to return it with a letter explaining that she can't keep coming into our home and criticising our family. She's also been off with me as she sent a (different) gift to the house by courier one day last week when I was in work. She knows which days I work, but she emailed me twice at work to 'check the delivery went ok' and I sent a very quick reply along the lines of 'I don't know, I'm in work, will let you know when I'm home later' - that clearly wasn't a grateful enough response and I've heard nothing from her since. The excessive gift-giving is a go-to tactic of hers.

Gosh, it sounds really petty when I write it down. I'm doubting myself a little, and wondering if I've pushed him to be angry with her as I'm the one who brought it up after she left. I was angry that she was pestering me at work, so I told DH about it and now I worry that there's going to be big falling out and it's partly my fault, I feel like maybe I have wound DH up by telling him about how angry I was both about what she said about DS2 and the whole email cold-shoulder thing.

I'm now worrying already that there will be a big falling out, the kids will be asking why we aren't seeing Grandma at Christmas, I won't know what to do/say if she gets in touch with me (as she no doubt will when she gets the letter from DH). He hasn't actually sent it yet, but I'm fairly sure he will.

She has since sent DH a gift for his birthday, and he's planning to return it with a letter explaining that she can't keep coming into our home and criticising our family.

Your DH is at the end of his tether and so are you.

It's not just this one event, is it?

I'm wondering what your DH's relationship with his mother was like to start with. Planning to send a gift back with a letter is quite a step, unless the accumulation of things has finally got to him.

Hi @ScatteredMama82

In a ‘normal’ family situation the things you describe would have been vaguely annoying, but because of the way you’re so alert to them there’s clearly a whole raft of feeling behind it.

Even the fact that you’re considering so carefully how to respond shows you’re aware of what fallout will occur, and you’re worried about how to manage it.

I would strongly urge both of you to look at the Out of the Fog website. It’s got all the information you need to start understanding what’s going on for you, and how you can respond if you choose.

You don’t have to go on like this.

@SingingLily no it's not just this event. She's always like this, and DH's relationship with her has been difficult his entire life. You're right, it is a big step but he has got to this stage once before. She responded with a letter telling him 'but look how much I did for you, I've done so much for you so I don't deserve this treatment'. In the letter she referred to him as 'the child'. It was really bizarre. Things like 'I had to work 2 jobs to take care of the child', not 'to take care of you'. She then packed said child off to boarding school as soon as she could (when he was 7). So yes, their relationship is far from good.

Thanks @Herocomplex, I just wish we had a normal family where we could fall out and make up in an weekend like others do. My parents are both long dead, we're both only children, so DH's parents are the only close family we have and it breaks my heart when I see our friends with their parents, helping each other out, relaxing and having fun. We just can't have that.

The amount that parents say they did for you doesn’t mitigate the pain they caused you by their behaviour.

Hiya Prawn people are imperfect and families are complicated and different generations have different values like your parents being much more about appearances than a actual “good” family reality. But abusive behaviour is always abusive and is always wrong.

Being physically kicked out, being undermined and shamed for doing things differently are abusive behaviours. They are part of an emotionally unintelligent skillset from people who do not have well adapted relationship or communication skills.

The feelings you get from this are because these behaviours did not begin when you rocked up in a “different” van, they are lifelong undermining and abusive behaviours, your parents have shown you a version of all your life. You cannot change people like your parents. You will only find in that complete frustration. All you can do is put in place boundaries that mean you can give to them only what you are able to give and at times you can give it. That is literally all you can do. People will undermine you as you try to do that but ultimately that is their lack of boundaries speaking because who are they to control your relationships.

Prawn, my impression based on your post is that your parents feel hugely threatened and challenged by the fact that you are unconventional, they are just not sophisticated enough to cope with this and that makes them feel belittled and inferior, they respond by attacking you to try and force you back into your place below them so that they can feel superior to you.

myduck getoff and spodge thank you again. Did you manage to train your brain to think this way without therapy?

I can see some people genuinely do have what I think is self esteem. I feel quite envious of them in a way, usually.

I struggle with micro interactions. Currently struggling not to cry just about all of the time I am awake and cheery small talk is a real trigger. People sort of look into my eyes and recoil I think. At work people sense it and can't always get away from me like mums in the playground can, I can tell I make people uncomfortable.

prawns you sound fun. Interesting how your parents have such a need to control you. My upbringing was almost the opposite, no expectations, no guidance, alone in figuring anything out. In both cases it seems more about parents wrapped up in their own lives, and their children being part of that, an extension, something to serve their life, rather than being allowed to be a person, a stand alone person with your own personality, needs and wants.

I have thought about moving down towards the west country singing, seems a friendly open minded part of the UK.

Referring to her own son as "the child" is just cold, ScatteredMama. That tells me your DH has been struggling with a whole lifetime of hurt and now he sees the same behaviour affecting you and – this may be the final straw he needs - your little boy.

There is a school of thought that people like your MiL never progressed beyond a very early stage of emotional development. I liken it to trying to deal with a grown-up toddler, all smiles when things are going their way but happy to throw a tantrum when they don't. My mother is a prime example; she grows older but never grows up. Attila puts the "stuck" age at six. She says imagine living in a house where a six year old is in charge playing mummy. Fine while you throw yourself fully into the game but as soon as you disagree with mummy or she gets overtired or fed up, you get your head ripped off and thrown into a corner. The attention span is very short.

It explains why people like your MiL and my mother get on so well with very young children. Older children (when they have developed independent thought)...not so much. Adult children, not at all. Your little boy is five. He has reached that stage of knowing what he wants. Not allowed.

Your family's relationship with her won't get better, you know. In fact, I think you know that only too well. It is hard to look around you and see other inter-generational families getting on, just as families should. That message bombards us at this time of year - a huge reason why this thread suddenly goes into hyperdrive. But I think, in the context of what you said, your DH is right to send the gift back with a letter. He is setting a very clear boundary with his mother. Treating your little boy like that is not acceptable, never acceptable, and he is right to protect you and your child. Now she has two choices: respect the boundary or carry on just being herself.

The really important thing for your DH is to know that he has your full support. Mothers like his and mine are masters at divide-and-conquer - it's a favourite tactic - so you must forestall that and present a united front.

seems a friendly open minded part of the UK.

I love it here, myfavouriterain. I relocated here from a friendly part of the North but have never regretted it. The elderly neighbours at the back were the first to welcome us. She was a Buddhist - her garden was a tangle of bee-friendly herbs and flowers plus wind chimes and a Buddhist gong - but she was such a wise old soul that I plucked up courage one particularly dark day and told her my troubles. She listened quietly and helped me to see the positives in my life. She always made me feel better about myself. Sadly, she is no longer with us but her widower pops in for a chat at least once a week and he is my surrogate Dad. Poppies and wild garlic have migrated under the back fence from their garden to ours and I let them grow because they remind me of her.

It's a peaceful place.

Did you manage to train your brain to think this way without therapy?

I have had therapy because I so struggled to see my family as being wrong and instead took all the blame and responsibility and shame into myself for not being able to just bury it. I needed someone to point out again and again it wasn’t me, it was and is still the extremely damaging and toxic family dynamic. However I also did tonnes and tonnes of reading and meditation which was so important too. So if it is not yet time for therapy there are other parts to work out without it.

Currently struggling not to cry just about all of the time I am awake and cheery small talk is a real trigger

I genuinely have been where you were. I was so scared of people letting me down .....again..... but I faked it a lot until I could feel it again. I remember being so traumatised it was like there was a dulling barrier between me and the rest of the world. When people spoke it would come through to me in some warped echoes. When I spoke it felt the same going the other direction. But after 100s of pleasant very superficial interactions the barrier slowly started to drop. In the midst of this I had a misunderstanding with a really good friend, it was a teeny thing but I thought my world would fall in, but I summoned up everything I learned along the way and applied it and suddenly we were through it and in a better place, like magic.

Just been reading I've posted before under different name and usually lurk .
I thought your last post @SingingLily so true . My dad who I'm nc I'm always brilliant with my dc when they were young got really giddy with them especially this time of year at Christmas. He was like a big kid never really grown up . Now my dc are teens early 20s not interested. It's the same with me was mostly a good dad especially Christmas as he loved just other times was a grumpy sod , walking on eggshells . Was very old school that he thinks woman are delicate little creatures and men are the strong protectors . I think that's why he doesn't like me and my dh because I'm very strong , I've had to be putting up with a dad like him . Now don't get me wrong compared to some others on this thread my childhood was great I can't fault him mostly . It was adult hood that went sour , he can't cope with anyone having a different opinion to him no matter how minor . Mostly over the years I've ignored him for my dc sake as he was great with them a really fun grandad . Last few years not so much . I ignored his rudeness to my family or the complete ignoring me for whatever reason as I have upset him for something minor .
Then came the abuse , nasty vicious messages . It was scary at times as at worse a complete over reaction and sometimes no reason whatsoever.
The last contact was earlier this year my dB had been lc with me he is my dads flying monkey. I reached out to dB but that backfired on him telling my dB and I got a stream of vile messages saying things about me dh , dmil and dfil , dsil . Things that were completely untrue, nasty and no reason why . My in-laws are the most lovely people and have been nothing but nice to him .
Now it's the run up to Christmas I've no dad no brother and don't see my mum because it's difficult. I find this time of year difficult.
I do have my dh , dc and my in-laws so I'm grateful . I know this can never be resolved because dad thinks I'm in The wrong . he has somehow invented this that I have chosen my in-laws over him and invented reasons why they are not nice people .
Just realised this is a really long post thanks for reading.

Are there things that you like doing myfavourite? Things you enjoy and look forward to? Something creative perhaps. Sometimes just finding soothing or pleasurable things to do can help your brain. It doesn’t have to be with someone else, but it might be in the future.

I’m sorry to hear that you’re feeling tearful so often, I know that feeling. Mine was anxiety, which I used to deny, but now I understand it a bit better. There’s lots of help and support on the Mind website, I found it really valuable because there’s loads of descriptions of people who feel anxious and what they do to cope. I did an online mental health quiz ‘How Anxious Are You’ which pinpointed a couple of areas that I hadn’t considered before.

I think it’s about understanding yourself, accepting your limitations and deciding how you want live your life. Small things can make big differences though.