But we took you to Stately Homes" October 2019 onwards thread

[toomuchtooold]

It's October 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@BuildBuildings I’ve just read your post, and I think you’re facing the dilemma quite squarely now. There is no contact that doesn’t bring degrees of pain, you’re always waiting for the next rockfall while being aware of all the bits of the relationship that are missing for you.

You can fade away gradually, leave it longer and longer, go grey rock. You’ll mourn their loss (or mourn what you should have had) but you will probably feel a bit lighter.

Distance is helpful, but it’s all painful. 💐

@haloweenmaz

Wow have read about Hoovering. I am now refusing to be responsible for DMs moods, much to the upset of DSD who no longer has me to mop up the mess and he has to face it alone.

Certainly by going LC (relative to previously) the narcissistic supply of attention has dried up for her no wonder she is trying to hoover up what she can get.

I have a hard enough time being my own parent in the absence of DM being a parent, without also parenting DM.

(Parenting DS is a pleasure and no trouble at all).

nice work Mummy😊 refusing to engage is a great way of taking back control!

@Chilledout11 'My father says she's on tablets 'because of me' and not to condemn her'.

Urgh I have had this exact experience. 'I was on antidepressants because of you' it's a low blow, and typical turning of the tables type behaviour. Nothing to do with them, not their responsibility and all to do with you. Mustn't it be nice for everything to be someone else's fault?!
I understand not loving them anymore. I never did love my narc stepfather but I idolised my mother as a child and now I realise she betrayed me. And it's hurtful but if you can see the truth of the situation then it helps you stop feeling that terrible guilt that pulls you back in, where you feel responsible for the enablers wellbeing. What I mean is the feeling that you have to accept whatever that do and just keep going back otherwise you will be responsible for the consequences. It's emotional blackmail eh? Not that they will see it like that (obv🙄) xx

Distance is helpful, but it's also painful.

So true. I do feel less anxious with NC but I also feel more sad and reflective. I think I gave my dad excuses for how he behaved when I was a child (he had a lot to cope with, he was depressed, he had to work hard to support his family, he'd had to move back to England when he'd rather be living abroad, his marriage had disintegrated, he found it hard having a son with severe learning disabilities), and convinced myself that we should be able to have a healthy adult relationship, and that he could be a loving grandfather to my DDs. I've now accepted that he has a personality disorder, he will not change, he is a narcissistic bully and NC is the only way for me to protect my own mental health, and in turn my family's. But yes, it is very painful.

ChilledOut Everyone is responsible for their own happiness, you are not responsible for your parents' unhappiness. Let yourself free. I'm sorry for your experience, you diidn't and don't deserve any of it. Your DH and DCs are your family now, look to the future and protect your family from negative energy.

@chilledout11 so many things you say rings true to me too. The racist remarks to their grandchild, my parents are so racist it's disgusting and they are open about it too. They would approve or disapprove of boyfriends and keep at me until I stop taking to them. Kind of like a brainwash in a way I guess. Couldn't see it then, I can now.

"Using the house as a hotel" this was my mum's favourite saying to me as a teenager/early 20s. I just think she hated me having a healthy social life and was jealous. She loves the fact I don't have that now. I caught her smirking when I told her to be grateful for friends and a social life as I don't have much of one now. Don't know if she knew she was doing it.

I caught her smirking when I told her to be grateful for friends and a social life as I don't have much of one now
I came to realise that my mother was much the same, hated the idea of me outdoing her in any way and visibly pleased at any bad luck, she was so very very angry and weird about my boyfriends, I just didnt understand it at the time but now I can see that she viewed herself as a 'femme fatale' and it was to do with keeping me off her 'territory'.

@ulterego yes i agree! Thinking about it there were a few times she would flirt with some of my boyfriend's which is just weird! And now I think about the ones she didn't like they were the ones who could see through her or the ones who didn't pay her Any compliments. Makes sense now.

Just wondering if anyone elses DM uses money and gift giving as a form of manipulation? As an example we ever go out anywhere as a family she will insist on paying for everything, from the taxi down to the drinks and food and even the tip and will get really huffy andactually angry if we try to pay. She so pushy about it, right down to sneaking off and paying the bill. She will just not allow it!

Now I know this sounds horribly ungrateful and most people would be over the moon to have such a generous mother, but after she chucked it back in my face and went on a rant about 'always paying for eveything' when I stood up to her over bad behaviour at the hen weekend I realised it's not done out of the goodness of her heart but as a means to control and probably use it against us when we dare to stand up her. There are obviously conditions attached.

most people would be over the moon to have such a generous mother
she pays for you to make you feel beholden to her and beneath her, also to make her feel justified in acting as if you owe her.
That aint strings you see attached to the money, no them's chains...heavy heavy chains

All the time, Manon, except my mother also did it - I think - as a subtle method of treating me as the hired help.

When Dad was first ill, I spent many days driving him to the GP and the hospital and staying with him, even spending many a long day or night with him in A&E. She never came with him even though it was clear he was seriously ill and suffering. However, she'd secrete £20 notes in my car. Sometimes, I wouldn't come across them for days or weeks. When I told her no need, she'd say, "It's to compensate you for your time and petrol". Even when I tried to tell her that I didn't want "compensation", that I was simply being a daughter and that's what daughters did, she'd get shirty and insist they needed to "pay their way".

Made me feel like an agency carer on a zero hours contact for my own father. And I do think that was the whole point. Useful but subordinate.

Ultergro I think I realise that now, but for many years I thought that she was just kind. I posted earlier in the year about how she competes with DB's in laws. His FIL is a trained chef, excellent cook, its his hobby. If he makes too much of something he will put them in containers for them to either freeze or eat another time. DM on the other hand hates cooking, fully admits to that and is pretty crap at it as a result.Now suddenly she is giving DB left overs and buying them cakes etc, I can still see the baffled look on his face when DM handed them tupperware containers of overcooked carrots and cremated roast potatos from the night before!

I'd love to know what goes on in her head? I think a psychiatrist would have a field day!

Singingshe never liked me doing anything for myself. Hated me cooking or doing my own laundry. Laughable really when you consider most parents complain about their kids not doing their chores, but every barrier possible was put in my way to stop me doing mine.

She never respected boundaries and would barge into my bedroom without knocking, when I pointed out this was unnaceptable and she should knock she responded with 'oh you've not got anything I havent seen before'. DB put a proper lock with a key on his bedroom door, which she had no choice but to respect. Wish I'd done the same with hindsight.

@manonblackbeak yes my mum also does this too. She knows i struggling financially but i dont ask for help. However she will pay for things or tell me how much to pay and if i say no its ok ill pay for me and DS then it she uses her scowl face and her temper starts to go.
Also anyones mums do this? She wont ask me what i want for a christmas or birthday present? She will just buy stuff that really is not useful and gets put under the bed. For my birthday this year she brought me a bin for outside, i said thank you but i dont want one. She did it anyway. I think its a form of control maybe?

...hated the idea of me outdoing her in any way.

My dad I realised in the end was the same, we have built ourselves a nice house and we're a happy family and I do really appreciate how lucky I am (although he has no idea about any of the lows) but I don't think its too much to expect him just to be pleased for me. Isn't that how 'normal' parents feel when their children accomplish things? The last time he visited, we were in the final stretch of knocking internal walls down (it was a long, several years project because we did most of it ourselves as and when we could afford it), and he just walked through making no comment at all about the progress we'd made, but later said to my DH "you'll never finish it". Thanks for the vote of confidence DD. And that's when it hit me: he's jealous. And he can't comprehend how two people he thinks he's intellectually superior to could achieve more than he did, it doesn't compute.

This is all about boundaries isn’t it, you have to be grateful because you’ve been given something, you can’t ask for what you want because it would be subtly used against you. It’s all about the narcissist, the star of the show, nothing to do with your wants or needs.

My DM in the last few years has started to give things to her grandchildren, nothing they want, but things she knows my sister would have liked. She would then tell my sister that the GC had asked for them, which my sister was really upset by. It wasn’t true, my kids were really puzzled when they got given photo albums.

@ManonBlackbeak My reason for finally going NC was over my children not writing thank you letters for their birthday and Christmas presents. Now I'm sure there's a thread on Mumsnet somewhere all about this, and I understand the view that not to is rude, so I don't want to get into that whole discussion here really. He hasn't moved on to texting and that's the way kids (and most of us) communicate these days, and I admit that a bit of me liked being able to wind him up because I knew it bugged him that they didn't do it, and perhaps it was my way of having just an ounce of control in our relationship. All other relatives seem happy with a text or a quick phone call, but not him. He'd already told me by email a couple of years back that he found it unacceptable and if they didn't write then he'd stop sending gifts, and on that ocassion I complied by getting them to write (Why? Fear? Of what...? Should have just said then that he should stop sending presents if that's the way he felt.) This time he had a real go at DD2 about it on the phone - when she was trying to thank him! I just find it bizarre tbh - a gift is a gift, something that doesn't require anything in exchange, given out of love. Not that we shouldn't teach our children to be grateful and say thank you, of course we should - but to get so angry about it...? I do think it was because he was trying to control how we/they behaved, and we/they weren't complying with his wishes. One of the final things he said was "I've already warned you about the consequences..." (don't think he quite expected my response of NC!). Gifts, spending money on his GCs, required gratitude beyond just saying thanks. And of course the criticism of me that I'm clearly not teaching my children any manners (I know I'm biased but they're honestly lovely, polite girls, I've had so many compliments over the years - so it makes me mad that he can say this when he really doesn't know them). Anyway, I know I've gone off track, but basically another example of how gifting is just part of controlling behaviour, like you say, not just strings but chains attached.

Halloween yep. Mine does that as well. I don't think she really knows me at all, as a child she'd buy me the most hideoous frilly dresses when she knew full well that I was a tomboy and I hated wearing them.

DB's DP told me that when she got to a certain age her DM would take her shopping to chose clothes, and helped her chose make up etc. DM never ever did stuff like that with me. Just bought me clothes she thought I should like because she liked them.

The thing is, I can be upset and a bit angry with my children if they are rude or thoughtless of people’s feelings. But the idea of saying I was going to withdraw love from them as a consequence is just extraordinary.

I've already warned you about the consequences...
such a finger wagging thing to say and in the words of Alice Cooper
'Don't shake that finger in my face no more
Cuz I might bite it off and spit it on the floor'

it never occurs to him that you can and will turn the tables, that you've been biting your tongue for years, that he only needs to make one false move and you will go nuclear
then relish the peace of the ensuing winter wonderland

@Ulterego :-) Exactly. He still thinks he's right though. Even after my long, very considered email telling him exactly how I felt, he came back with a rant about how one day I'll be a grandparent thinking the same as him about children not saying thank you. Grrrrr. I don't think so.

@manonblackbeak yes same with the clothes thing too. She picked what she liked for me when we went into town. I remember a horrible experience where Dsis was a skater girl and major tom boy. She wanted some skater tops. My mum made Her cry so bad and said "if I wanted a boy, i would have had one" "you look so scruffy and awful" yanked her away from the shop and held onto her with the tightest grip. I still feel so guilty that I couldn't do anything for my sister but I was only about 9 and my sister was 7ish.
Awful women! Always about appearance to her. Still is now.

Ah yes, the giving of shit gifts is another one of their tricks. They get something totally inappropriate that you'd never like, or use, but if you call them on it you sound ungrateful.

One Christmas my mother got me a Hello Kitty stationary set, worth about a tenner and clearly meant for children. I was in my late 20s at this point...

Another year she got me and my sister nothing, not even a card, and told us over and over about the expensive pen she had bought for her GP (who she has an extremely unhealthy obsession with). Absolute batshit. Caused a massive row that Christmas Day and of course Dad sided with her. Even though we had hosted, made dinner and gave them lovely presents. Looking back, that was another turning point for me seeing them for what they were.

And yet, the other way round, very little in the way of thanks. He may have been trying to make a point, but no thanks received at all for some token gifts I gave for him and his partner last Christmas. Surely if you're going to harp on about the GCs sending written TYs then lead by example.