But we took you to Stately Homes" October 2019 onwards thread

[toomuchtooold]

It's October 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
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January 2013
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December 2013
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December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
May-August 2019
August-October 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Morning @dontknowdontknow I think it’s part of the whole problem that when you act normally, like you have, and your parents then punish you, like yours are, that you feel very low. You’ve stepped out of the expected role of pleasing everyone, so you’re not sure of what your place is anymore.
I can’t remember if you’ve been to your GP?

Are you still doubting whether you did the right thing?

@dontknowdontknow i didn't go in the end, I weren't the right headspace and didn't feel strong enough. I think I will go next time though.
I remember reading your post about your parents losing their home and wanting to move in with you? It's like looking into the future for me! Atm they have a good life, lots of money. However when they reach retirement age and my dad stops working they have no income. No pension, mum won't get a state pension. No investments. So I can see what has happened to your parents, happening to mine.
I understand how much stress it's causing because why would you want people in your home who aren't good for your mental health. Stay strong because you have made the right decision. It's on them for getting themselves in this situation.

It's like looking into the future for me
tell them straight, they need to make proper provision for their old age and if they don't you will not be picking up the pieces.

@Herocomplex @Halloweenmaz I know I've done the right thing as you say... but feel shitty. No one really talking to me and I'm waiting for the next bombshell so to speak. God knows I feel bad with Christmas coming etc and no idea how this will all unfold but I can't cope with anymore than I have on my plate. Trying to focus on the tasks in front of me like bloody ironing today! @Herocomplex it's interesting about the expected bit. I've been in people pleasing mode all my life and then go nuts every now and again because obviously it doesn't work and people are still selfish like my parents. It's just another way of manipulating isn't it. Sometimes it frightens me that I will turn into them. I hear my own child rant at me and it's like an echo from the past. @Halloweenmaz I hope it doesn't happen to you. Can you find a way of making sure it doesn't?

I don't mean everyone is like my parents I just mean that people pleasing makes you feel shit ultimately.

I previously posted on the last thread and had some really lovely responses. I'd been looking for the thread so was glad it popped up. I'm sure lots of people have no or minimal contact with parents but I'm wondering how people manage having contact? I'm just finding it quite hard.

I found out a few weeks ago my temp contract in a job I love is not being ext due to funding. I'm sad but did know it could happen. But it really brought hone that my parents will have no idea I'm on a fixed term contract as they have no interest in my life. So this puts more burden on me as its a bit strange to not mention you won't have a job in January when you see people. But on the other hand they will act all fucking surprised like all jobs are for life.

This is one of many examples when big stuff comes up and I'd rather just not tell them but as we see each other it feel weird not to. I'm also feeling quite aware of the give and take relationship with my family as my sister is heavily pregnant and my mum is quite involved. So I know she has it in her just not for me.

I moved back to the region I'm from a few years ago to be able to afford to buy a house. I think I'd be better off with more distance perhaps?

@dontknowdontknow I’m glad you recognised something, I always feel a bit better when I see that someone else has experienced the same thing and realised how messed up it is. The problem we have is there are so many affirmations about better to give than receive, turning the other cheek, forgive and forget, blood is thicker than water etc. So we just carry on forgiving.
And yes, we can pick up habits from our parents (they’re known as ‘fleas’) but we don’t have to turn into them. We have a choice. And that’s what makes them so dreadfully bad, because they had a choice too.

Hope you get your jobs done, looking after yourself when you can.

@BuildBuildings I spent the last 2 or 3 years before going NC with my father avoiding telling him anything at all of any significance as everything resulted in a subtle criticism and despite knowing that is just the way he is, I'd always come off the phone feeling wounded and slightly reeling after he'd managed to twist something completely innocuous I'd said into something I was wrong about, so I completely understand. I don't know what the answer is. It did make going NC easier, or at least no regrets as I'm not missing any kind of real relationship. I responded when he phoned or emailed, although often put it off for a while, and then had some kind of wierd surface conversation where he asked me nothing and didn't really seem to want to tell me anything about his life either. Both performing our duties I suppose. Don't get me wrong, going NC isn't all a bed of roses, I think about him every day and feel very sad. I'm not sure if I feel guilty, angry... I suppose I mainly replay childhood memories, more than I was, and what I wish I could say to him about how he behaved and made me feel. I wish I could stop doing it and move on.

as everything resulted in a subtle criticism and despite knowing that is just the way he is
I found with my father that all conversations became very heavily loaded with subtle criticism and implications re what I ought to be doing, it seemed as if he thought he ought to be able to steer me into doing his bidding.
Cant be arsed with it no more!

Hi I thought I'd post here and say "hello". After nearly 40 years of verbal abuse from my depressed DM, and several attempts to get her to take responsibility, I stopped contacting her in the summer after she shouted at my son, told me to "discipline" him, accused my husband of being lazy and insulted his Mum. The thing has been, DM says she never remembers any of the things she says "in anger" which to me has always felt like gaslighting - like it is my word against hers. Anyway she is now in therapy and I do think she is making progress as she is aware she has been acting childishly and wants to fix it. She has apologised and is on medication. I am getting quite a bit of "poor me". She seems to think she herself is a victim.

I said I would remain in contact, on my terms, as long as she continues in therapy. I am beginning to hear "how can we move this forward" which I take to mean, "I've said sorry, I've done some therapy, now I want you to move forward at the pace I dictate". I said I am going to continue with how things are at the moment.

She keeps saying she is terrified of losing me and the abuse was also because she was terrified of losing me to my DD from whom she is divorced. According to DSD she is "desperate" and thinks she has already lost me (NB I am not a possession to lose down the back of the sofa). To which I said "I'm still meeting her for coffee occasionally and phoning about once a week (to offer my support for her continuing in therapy)." Basically I have put up some boundaries, which she says she has accepted.

Anyway, the guilt is getting to me with all the sob stories I have been hearing about her terrible childhood. (What about my childhood?)

There has been a really big improvement in attitude but I am scared it won't last. She has told me she will not lose her temper again and does not recognise the old person.

Does anyone else on here have experience with reformed abusive parents? Do they reform at all and does it last? Is it something she is just saying just to lure me back into being a parent to her?

@Ulterego i've tried but it falls on deaf ears

@mummy3yearold I think what your DM is doing is called hoovering. Its a tactic abusive people use to get you back again. Look it up and see if you agree with it and the stuff your mum is doing. With regards to changing, im not sure if they can change as its so deeply rooted. Maybe if she wants to change but it would need so much work

Thank you to all the posters who shared their feelings/experiences about therapy. I've found it incredibly helpful to read.

@Halloweenmaz I really resonated with your comments about opening up but shutting down again because it's so painful. I am chipping away at this bit by bit but it's incredibly difficult. I feel like a locked box. There's so much hurt and shame inside, I can't bear to let it out. A very slow and painful process.

@BuildBuildings I have withdrawn from my parents in terms of the information I give them about mine and my children's lives. I feel really sad that I can't share stuff but it's protective. My mum would always say something that made me feel shit, so now I just keep conversations very superficial on the whole.

Sorry about your job

Do they reform at all and does it last? Is it something she is just saying just to lure me back into being a parent to her
when you sup with the devil bring a long spoon....always keep your guard up and your boundaries patrolled, sorry to sound pessimistic, she might improve but as soon as you relax and start to trust her again she may well default to her old ways....just my guess though.

There's so much hurt and shame inside, I can't bear to let it out. A very slow and painful process
I'm so sorry Twentymice you deserve to be free of all this

i've tried but it falls on deaf ears I shoulda known Halloween:( it's so exasperating and painful isnt it:(

Internet finally installed and working from yesterday evening, I hope everyone is well, my very best wishes, I'll be posting again very soon :)

Went down a rabbit hole last night googling hoovering and narc behaviour. Has really opened my eyes to how I behaved in relationships before I was married. Uncomfortable feeling! It's really frightening me how much I identify with this and not just passing blame to my parents. This is clearly a generational thing and something they learnt from their parents. My entire life has been chasing relationships (romantic and friendships) with people who don't give me what I need. The negative supply... it's the opposite of self care isn't it.

@dontknowdontknow yes the same for me. All my relationships romantic and friendship are one sided and unhealthy. Therefore I don't have many people in my life atm as I've realised and working on it through counselling to get healthy relationships.
I had the same moment as you a few years ago, I began googling and finally realised so much stuff. Then it clicks and makes alot of sense. Have you had counselling before?

I need a bit of a hand hold. I haven't made contact with my family for a month. I haven't visited my parents since Easter and am desperately ashamed of myself but can't face it. Looking story but my mother isn't a nice person and has some mental health issues (always had a temper too and nothing good to say) my confidence was often crushed and she would say I can't take a joke. She would cook and look after us so no neglect. My father said we were the best looked after children but many years ago he let slip I should move to uni as far away as possible after i returned from a shopping trip with friends and she screamed the place down I was out drinking (I cried so much my father took me for a drive to get away from her). I always had a good relationship with him.
Fast forward 20 years i am married good job children and highly qualified but deeply hurt. When I got married she was so nasty and dads speech was all about her friends birthday nothing about me or dh really. The hen party was stressful as she was in hospital in pain (a&e) but made a miraculous recovery just in time for the meal. That type of thing. When I went to get my dress she asked to borrow money. Nothing was ever nurturing. 70 couples were their friends at the wedding and she screamed after at the photos that dh had his sister in one in the album.

Anyway I told my brother she was being hard on me and my parents went crazy and shouted at my dh as he said do you think you are being hard on chilled? He now thinks they are lunatics. Since then (nearly a decade ago) I visit and don't tell them anything went for counselling.

She still makes nasty comments and I cry after visiting but suddenly I stopped visiting. This went on for two months but she visited me then and was a lot nicer. The problem is I don't love them anymore. In the past five years my father has hardly spoke to me properly. I don't want to live my life not speaking to them. My mother wonders what they have done she says I make her want to commit suicide. My father says she's on tables 'because of me' and no t to condemn her. What do I do

🤝
Hello Chilled 😊
You say you don't feel any love for your parents, to me that sounds like a healthy and rational response to the way you have been treated by them, these two are right pair aren't they😲
crazy batshit dysfunctional narcissistic, everything has to be about them😲 well done for protecting yourself!
I don't think there is going to be any reasoning with these two, if you want to maintain any kind of relationship with them you will have to keep them at arm's length take a grey rock approach etc.
Welcome to the thread, people here understand what you're going through 😊

Hi @Chiiledout11 that sounds very hard. You were emotionally neglected, your parents have let you down very badly.

Your dad knows how terrible your mother is to you, your brother knows too, but neither of them can face up to the fact. It’s easier for them to keep you as their shield.

As awful as you’re feeling now you’ve made a massive step forward by taking control of the situation, and saying ‘no more’.

All of us here have held together an illusion of ‘family at any cost’, until we realised that the price to our mental health is just too high.

Go and look at the outofthefog.website

It’s horrible being so low and lost, but there are so many people here who understand how you’re feeling right now. 💐

Chilled

Well done you for deciding not to visit them any longer. Your parents, as the other posters rightly point out, failed you and continue to fail you abjectly.

Do not be ashamed of yourself here; that is really your inbuilt conditioning at their hands talking. Leaving you with fear, obligation and guilt is par for the course with such toxic parents as yours are.
Do read the Out of the FOG website.
Your dad is really her secondary abuser and enabler here. He is a truly weak man who has acted out of self preservation and want of a quiet life.

Chilledout11 That sounds really tough. I also had the 'crazy' mother and enabling father, who I thought I was close to until I started to look back at his behaviour and realised all he cared about was protecting her. He'd go along with anything for her, and to hell with the consequences for me and my sister. I think as kids we naturally cling to the one seemingly stable parent and see this as a close bond. When you look back critically and realise it wasn't what you thought, it's hard.

I can relate to your feeling that you don't love your parents anymore. I think you have to ask yourself what they bring to your life now, and what impact contact has on you and your own family. If it's mostly negative, why put yourself, your DH and kids through it?

I have wanted to post for a long time thank you. It is awful when my in-laws ask how are my family and I cannot tell them. They are caring and nurturing (Mil often rings me just go ask how I am and says I am a great person which after years of being made feel worthless is very welcome)

My dm says come home home is home but it doesnt feel like home. When I left for uni I only came back the first summer when she screamed I use the place like a hotel. My first serious boyfriend my dad took him out in the car and frightened him driving like a maniac. Another relationship they mocked him until I ended it. He was slightly older and my father walked around with a stoop laughing. They wouldn't remember any of it. My brothers child is of mixed heritage and my dm frequently says at least he is more white (this hurts me deeply as my brother doesn't know). He's very good to her. Another brother went through a heartbroking separation and I often think it was the dynamics of the family that pushed her elsewhere.

Sorry for offloading so much but my father just takes her side in everything. Even after two c sections and two small children he would demand I go and clean their house and leave the dc at home as dm was tired and unwell that type of thing

Chilled your parents have no authority over you whatsoever, they clearly care nothing for your well-being they focus only on trying to dominate and humiliate you.
your first duty is towards yourself and you must protect yourself from the destructive influence of these people.
I'm not surprised you don't feel as if their house is any kind of a home for you, she just wants you there under her roof so she can continue to crush and dominate you to make herself feel better.
Run away and don't look back, there's nothing for you there!