But we took you to Stately Homes" October 2019 onwards thread

[toomuchtooold]

It's October 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
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November 2018-May 2019
May-August 2019
August-October 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Hello all

First time posting here. To put it plainly.. I’ve been no contact with my mum for a week now and boy do I feel better.

I had a row with her last weekend and said I had had enough of her. She text me a few days later (she always does this) completely ignoring the fact she had been horrible to me and I just thought, fuck this. I haven’t replied and I don’t intent on getting into contact with her for a while.

I feel lighter...

Just wondering if anyone elses DM uses money and gift giving as a form of manipulation?

Oh yes, during my childhood and into adult life, my parents have thrown money at me almost as an excuse for my abusive childhood and the way they treat me throughout my life (I'm now 41 and they still attempt to do so). It's purely a tactic that shows they realise what they have done, and are trying to use money and gifts as an excuse for their behaviour both to yourself, and more importantly in their own minds, as an excuse to themselves, and to enable them to continue their abusive behaviour. These monetary offers,and gifts, always have many conditions attached to tie you to the abuser, strengthen this tie, and to discourage you from breaking away. These conditions are invisible, but make no mistake, they are always, always, attached.

Hi @ReallyLoveChickens. Welcome. Feel free to tell us more when you're ready. It can be painful to go over experiences but helps put them into a new perspective.

trying to use money and gifts as an excuse for their behaviour both to yourself, and more importantly in their own minds, as an excuse to themselves, and to enable them to continue their abusive behaviour.

That's exactly it. It's a quid pro quo. "I can't possibly be a terrible parent (who neglects or abuses you or both, even though I do and we both know it) because I give you money and gifts and take you to stately homes and that's tangible proof to the whole world that I'm a good parent. It's you who's the problem. Who's going to believe you?"

It's a form of score keeping and self-absolution, as well as manipulation and control.

I find as DB and I get older and start to pull away a lot more she's got worse. She's got this fixation with us all going on holiday together, tries to push it endlessly and Ive no doubt she'd pay for us all despite it costing a fortune. Thing is I remember our family holidays growing up and how they always had to revolve around her wants and needs. We went to the places she wanted to go, ate at the restaurants she wanted to eat at, did the trips and excursions when and where she wanted etc.

The one time we went away with extended family, so Aunt's, Uncles and Cousins she spent most of it in a sulk because she wasn't in control and the rest of the family wouldn't fall into line with what she wanted to do. The family would all sit down and discuss our plans and then make a decission about what we all wanted do, you know like normal people do.. more importantly the needs and opinions of us kids were taken into account and well she didn't like it. Ironically this is holiday was one my favourite childhood memories, it was a really great holiday IMO because it was such fun. But she hated it.

But yeah, you can see why we are resistant to going away together as a family.

Same here, we went away en masse, at their request. DM did everything she could to demonstrate her annoyance at everything that wasn’t controlled by her. One of the very very rare times I stood up to her. It was awful. I never understood why it had all gone so wrong before coming to this thread.

I was thinking this morning how lucky we are today to have the internet, resources like Out of the Fog, and of course this thread. It's much easier now for people to recognise the signs and talk to others who have had a similar experience. It breaks the cycle. I always thought my parents were unique until I read up about the patterns.

The awful thing is I’ve known about narcs for years, but always resisted the idea that I was a victim. Always thought that love was there somewhere, that it was for my own good. That I really had nothing to complain about, that I am less clever than I think, that my sisters jealousy is my fault.
Denial and manipulation can last for years, and even now I see clearly, I still wonder if it can be fixed.

Im still here, just been lurking. My interview went well but theres another round so im just living in limboland.

I told mum i needed time to myself and id let her know if i felt like discussing it. She said ok. That lasted a few days, now im getting angry texts that rather telling ask what I THINK she has done.... she is again jumping to equate me with a friend's daughter who has been truly horrible to her mother. Trying to say im cutting her off from dd. In reality ive said nothing of the sort. Ive said nothing! Always thinks the worst of me.

@cherrycee I know, without the internet I would never had a clue and thought my parents were the only ones. Especially with it drilled into me to keep the business between our family only.

Just wanted an opinion about why my mum might have done this because this is baffling me.
I stupidly told my mum where I wanted to go away for a break when I don't have DS next year for a couple weeks (he's away with his DF). She replied that it would be a rubbish holiday and would be boring and that type of holiday would be too expensive for me.
It's been a month after I told her and she's said that her and my dad are now going to this destination!!! Apparently they only had certain places to choose from as my dad had some loyalty points to use towards somewhere and they didn't want to go anywhere else on the list but the place I wanted to go.
I said this is where I told you I wanted to go and you didn't like the place. I just do not get why she's done that!?

I said this is where I told you I wanted to go and you didn't like the place. I just do not get why she's done that!?

I'd guess in the first instance it was to put you down, and then in booking it she's trying to make you jealous, or one up you by going there first. It's batshit but classic narc. You could say you find it odd that she's copying you, but you'll take it as a compliment! That'll put her nose out of joint. Or take the more mature approach of ignoring her completely.

In future, don't tell her your plans. Give her as little detail as possible about your life, and keep any conversations you have as superficial as possible.

now im getting angry texts
If you can just stand back and watch, do nothing, dont take the bait, she will run through her various options and reveal more and more of herself.
She is trying to provoke you into responding so that she can use whatever you 'give' her to get back in control

Narcissists hate it when you show any independent thought, or do something that isn’t about them. It threatens their idea of being in control. Only she can have good ideas, you’re meant to follow along, or ask her opinion first. I expect she’s told people all about it, and now thinks it’s her plan.
Are they going at the same time as you?

As @Ulterego says, just be vague about plans, don’t fall into the trap of sharing information you care about.

Especially with it drilled into me to keep the business between our family only
imo, they intuitively know that if you share with others you'll realise that things aren't right.
she's said that her and my dad are now going to this destination
suspect the implication is that this type of holiday is somehow not for the likes of you, as if you're not sophisticated enough to appreciate it or something(?)....that's what I get trying to read between the lines Halloween

or more likely the 'ruse' was stealing your holiday idea and passing it off as her own as Herocomplex says
and the rubbishing it to you was just a technique to elbow you out of her territory

In future, don't tell her your plans
or if you want some entertainment just make stuff up randomly :o

The place i wanted to go is the French Rivera, i thought she saw it as "posh" but when i looked around i found some good deals. Im not going but was thinking of going on my own.
Her comment was "oh thats expensive place isn't it". Irony is, they are not even paying for it as these points have paid for it. Although she will prob harp on about how much spending money they will need to take.
Every time they go away now, both of them send me and my sister pics of their place, videos of their hotel room. She knows i can't afford holidays like that. Really gets to me, but i don't show that to her.

I am really starting to hate this attachment stuff where she feels i need to rely on her. I know i don't but i think i have the FOG.

@Herocomplex any point in my life i have begun to become independent to her, she kicks up the biggest fuss so i come running back out of guilt.

@Ulterego might try that one

Halloween, she wants to keep you in a subordinate position so that she can feel more important, ignore the fuss she kicks up and live your own life dont let her oppress you, you can flourish and expand yourself
fly fly away....

@Halloweenmaz that’s why it’s such a good acronym, the Fear Obligation Guilt leaves you lost and confused, and you can’t see where you are going. I think I look at the outofthefog website every week.

Ulterego, you are correct - theres nothing i can say which wont result in a nuclear reaction, whatever i say will simply be fuel.

pukeworthy you’ve spent all your life fearing this. You’ve asked her to stand back a bit and she’s reacted like this? You’re right there’s nothing you can say, so I wouldn’t say anything. Let her get on with her nonsense.

• The awful thing is I’ve known about narcs for years, but always resisted the idea that I was a victim. Always thought that love was there somewhere, that it was for my own good. That I really had nothing to complain about, that I am less clever than I think, that my sisters jealousy is my fault. Denial and manipulation can last for years, and even now I see clearly, I still wonder if it can be fixed.*

Great post @herocomplex . I think this eloquently explains everything about how narcs intrinsically reinforce their control, and it's akin to being brainwashed as the reinforcement happens multiple times per day, be it as children when it's our "normality" or adulthood where the abuse is cleverly disguised.

Without these threads, and the special people

Wtf

Anyway,

Without these threads, and the special people residing here I would still be thinking the abuse was/is absolutely fine, think I had things great and never seek to examine my thoughts. It's so insidious how these people penetrate deeply into our souls.

I love these SH threads and I have most substantial love, empathy, and respect for everyone who posts here, be it for advice or to offer help. Amazing.

And the regulars, who have been active for ages, years even, you are the core here and I cannot find the words to express the amount of respect I have for you. 💕💕💕