But we took you to Stately Homes" October 2019 onwards thread

[toomuchtooold]

It's October 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

I can relate to the feeling of being judged in counselling. I kind of realised with the rational part of me that it was probably coming from me rather than my counsellor, but the feeling persisted anyway and wouldn't go away. And also the feeling that she must be bored, or tired of hearing my stuff - that too. Counselling was a year ago for me and I'm only just now processing that aspect of it. I think it just takes time, and I don't know that anything she could have said at the time would have accelerated me coming to terms with those feelings.

So I think what I'm saying is - do tell your counsellor you feel judged, and work with it, but don't expect to magically get rid of the feeling straightaway, just trust that with time, you will.

I never really considered whether i was punished for the grandpa thing: i was clear however that it was a big problem and i get the feeling only hidden under a thin veneer - one small scratch would bring it all out again....

I do understand the 'everyone else's needs' shilton - i was like that until DD was born. I was a really placid child, just 'ok' 'ok' 'ok' to each crazy new thing.

Personally I’m anxious about other people’s feelings, I find other people’s emotional pain really difficult to bear. I want to make people happy. I want a therapist to think I’m working hard, understanding, making good progress. I want them to think I’m a good client. I give examples of how brave and resilient I am.
Those are the things I have to work through before I can make any progress at all.

Hero yes, I can relate to all of that too.

Personally I’m anxious about other people’s feelings, I find other people’s emotional pain really difficult to bear. I want to make people happy. I want a therapist to think I’m working hard,

Ahh, Hero, that early conditioning is so hard to overcome. I've mentioned before that I've had counselling before. It was for PTSD - work-related, not because of family issues. I learned one helpful technique for shutting out intrusive thoughts when I'm trying to go to sleep but other than that, it wasn't of much use. Not the counsellor's fault really; I'm very very good at hiding myself and even this highly recommended professional didn't detect the barriers. I simply said and did what was required to tick all the boxes. Because I really needed that approval.

Since then, I've had time to reflect further and the PTSD did indeed have had its roots in my upbringing. I spent so long bearing the mental and emotional load for my dysfunctional family that I carried the same load for people at work without stopping to think about what I was doing.

It sounds quite mad, doesn't it? But it makes a weird kind of sense and I've finally been able to let go of the work thing.

You have to let go too, Hero, and start centring yourself. Even though it goes against the grain. 💐

Thank you, it’s so great to say these things and feel heard. I wonder if any of you get a panicky feeling if someone thinks you’re not doing fine? I don’t really know how to let go of being fine, despite having done work on it.
I have good friends who are therapists who know me and are really good at asking me challenging questions. Obviously that’s not counselling - we have no boundaries set. But it’s useful.

My advice to those of you with therapists is to bring as much of yourself to therapy as you can bear to, really use them. They can absolutely take it. Ask them the tough questions, tell them you think you’re boring them, that they don’t like you. It’s these reactions in you that can lead to better understanding of yourself and how you’re dealing with the world.

In my session yesterday, my dad came up quite a bit. He was the calm, placid, seemingly stable parent, while my mother was chaotic (BPD and possibly other issues). I adored my dad as a child and young adult, and it's only in recent years I've realised he was an enabler and not as great a father as I thought. By the time I started to realise this, his dementia was progressing and he's now in a nursing home.

I have a lot of confused feelings about him, and my counsellor has asked me to write him a letter and bring it next week. I know it will probably be helpful, but I really don't want to do it...

Cherry, there was a very similar dynamic in my family it's only now that I'm seeing my father for who he really is. I despise him now.
Could you maybe make a few notes for the letter, it might start to come together once you put some thoughts down?
As awful as it is if I wrote a 'never to be sent' letter to my father right now it would say 'hurry up and die'

@Herocomplex what do you think is the fear that you have if you are seen as not 'fine'? Do you think it's that you will be rejected? That your feelings are not 'ok' if they aren't positive? I do believe that if you've grown up pandering to narcissists you end up feeling like an actor in your own life. So emotionally numbed out from trying to work out the 'right' thing to do and the 'right' way to behave that your real self just gets squashed down into a tight ball and you have difficulty accessing it and being able to express, (or even know) how you 'actually' feel as opposed to what you want people to see you as (so you get their love). Does that make sense?

Completely Marmaduke that’s it exactly. I don’t know what would happen if I wasn’t fine. You’re right a lot of the time I don’t feel like a real person, just a fairly convincing impersonator.
I only went NC totally in August, from LC in May. I do wonder how long it will be before I don’t think about them at least once a day. I feel like I keep them ‘on watch’ , just in case I forget to be vigilant and go back. I’m actually thinking of a very small tattoo (I don’t have any, it’s not something I’m into) of a circle to mark my new self-protection mode.

As I said before I’m really trying to be more honest, tell fewer lies, face up to things more. Say ‘I don’t like that’ instead of ‘anything’s fine for me’.

@Herocomplex yes to the people pleasing! I sub consciously and also not want everyone to like me. I find it uncomfortable when they don't. It really makes me panic.

Actually think I always felt if I pretended everything was normal it would be normal, that’s the basis of it.

@Herocomplex have you listened to/read Pete walker 'complex PTSD; from surviving to thriving'? I think he makes a lot of points that might be helpful to you? I've found it pretty helpful. You can get it on audible if you can't be arsed to read it 😂.
I totally get what you are saying, I feel a lot of those same feelings. I think the tattoo is a great idea x

No I haven’t, I’ll look at that, I think listening to stuff might be a really good idea actually. I’ve got some free time next week, I think exploring that might be my plan. Thanks to all xx (unmumsnetty display of affection)

Fifth EMDR session yesterday. Thought I'd share in case it's of use to anyone reading.

I think I was clinically depressed for my first year of high school. We'd moved town a year before and DSis and I were just supposed to cope without any extra support. Parents didn't notice my health and I wasn't trying to hide it.

We visited that time. I recalled the feelings, the high school, the bully, some other sad things but it quickly went quite dreamlike. It was very pleasant, lots of memories of how exciting I found school, my friends, the laughs and so on. Lovely and affirming. I thought I was always sad and unpopular. I clearly wasnt.

These really strong physical sensations started to take hold. It took a while to clear all this tension from almost everywhere in my body. Therapist thinks it was my general childhood sadness leaving me.

I went to bed early and slept soundly. I feel so different today, calmer, more real.

God @jamdhanihash, that sounds so lovely and dare I say therapeutic!

Very interesting to hear the experience of it. I’m glad you’ve found a way forward.

@SingingLily it absolutely do not sound mad. I can relate. I also feel I have PTSD due to a traumatic incident to do with my DS earlier this year. But i also feel like it was waiting to happen because of certain traumatic events in my childhood too. I did read you're more likely to have PTSD if your family have MH issues and have been in a dysfunctional family.

@Cherrycee my dad is also my mums enabler. But they seem to be fluid in swapping roles of enabler. My mum i feel is a narcissist and my dad has a drinking problem. They both make excuses for each other. Will always stick up for each other. I was also asked to write certain letters to certain people. I didn't want to do it either. So i understand.

I feel its weird for me atm because i know all my family is dysfunctional but i feel like i rely on them alot. I don't have many friends and i'm a single parent. They know this and i think they like my relying on them. I don't want to be so tied up with them. I know they are not good for my mental health. Over the past few months when i've need support the most my parents are not there. I had to deal with harassment from a guy on my own as my mum told me not to ring the police and ruin his life (?) what about mine? Last week she told me i was a sensitive child and still am as i said i didn't like the fact she used to hit our dad in front of us. Today she just spoke about her mum to me and all the drama about her toxic family. But wow if i want to talk about my problems she switches off. She doesn't want to get involved and it stresses HER out.

Someone on here suggest i attend al-anon. There's a meeting tonight and i'm debating weather i should go or not?

Sorry i feel like i've rambled on so much. I just have literally no one in RL to speak to.

@jamdhanihash im really pleased you had a good session. Sounds lovely

Halloweenmaz

Do attend the al-anon meeting this evening if possible.

Its very likely your parents enable each other; people who are disordered of thinking really do need a willing enabler to help them. Theirs is also a destructive dance of codependency.

And no, you have not rambled on too much!!.

Thanks @Attilathemeerkat I think im going to go just feeling fragile atm.

I've tried to address all of this over the past few years but it just gets so painful and i lock it back up. It's easier to not think about it but i know i need to. Anyone else been the same? Did you manage to come through it and start to sort your issues out?

I've tried to address all of this over the past few years but it just gets so painful and i lock it back up. It's easier to not think about it but i know i need to. Anyone else been the same? Did you manage to come through it and start to sort your issues out?

I completely get it Halloweenmaz. Over the last few years I have understood a lot more about my past and I've wanted to work through it to try to move on, but I'm realising it's very big and complex and sometimes I just want to bury it all away again. But I know it still has an impact on me so I want to address it, and round in circles we go. I still feel a lot of resentment, and feel like I don't fit into this world that's created by 'normal' people who don't get it (if that makes sense).

Things that have helped me personally were finally admitting I had depression and getting treatment, and finally finding a good counsellor. Not saying that's the case for you, but for me I had to stop pretending I was fine in order to try to move on. Not there yet but hopefully getting there.

Ulterego Thanks for your post. I can't seem to get truly angry with my dad yet, probably because I always felt sorry for him and protective of him, and it's hard to break the habit of a lifetime. But I know he let me down. I will try putting together some notes to start with. By the way you don't sound bad for feeling the way you do, I've often thought about the peace I'll have when mum goes (and then felt guilty for thinking it). We're only human.

@Cherrycee yes i completely understand that and i feel im going in circles too. I'm hoping eventually the more i actually deal with it, the easier it will be.

Also feel i don't fit into this world either. Feel a bit of a recluse. Oh i'm the best at pretending im fine to everyone else. Think it was my mums conditioning to the outside world we don't speak our business and that we as a family are fine. But i have admitted i have depression and back on AD. Hoping to get the counsellor i had last year, she was really good.

my mum told me not to ring the police and ruin his life
implicit in this statement is the knowledge that he has committed a crime against you (otherwise why would his life be ruined if you reported him)
Halloween, can you call her out, ask her why she is sympathizing with a person who has committed crimes against her own daughter, ask her 'what kind of mother would do that?'

she just spoke about her mum to me and all the drama about her toxic family
and turn the tables here, hands over your ears, 'stoppit mum you're stressing me out'
walk away
whatever she gives you hand it right back to her
( I know, I know, easy for me to say....)

@Halloweenmaz really relate to your post. Did you go to the so anon meeting? My parents not interested in what we have going on and aren't talking to me anymore it seems. Feel so depressed. Husband is stressed being out of work and I feel like I could sleep all day. No support from family which is what the feel about us I guess. The idea of them moving in is just ridiculous. I would end up insane.