But we took you to Stately Homes" October 2019 onwards thread

[toomuchtooold]

It's October 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
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May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
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March 2011
November 2011
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May-August 2019
August-October 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@Chilledout11 - the mystery illnesses - I'd forgotten about them.

I've only just made the decision to go no contact after being low contact for years so can't give you much advice. It made me feel so much worse to begin with too but things are getting better. Finding this place has been really helpful as I realise I'm not alone or wrong.

I haven't slept properly either. I think my brain is processing a lot of old memories in a new way. I am acknowledging that these things happened and they hurt me and it's ok to feel bad about it.

I haven't cried yet but I image that will come at some point.

I am already feeling a lightness as though each time I acknowledge something I can throw it away.

That sounds all a bit hippyish for me. But just remember you coming here to talk you've taken a massive first step and you are stronger and better than your mother could ever be.

yellowlemon

re your comment on your mother:-
"I think delusions of grandeur are about right. There are some things that she claims - like she was wholly responsible for a certain celebrity's career - that are so outlandish they're almost laughable".

My BIL does the self same behaviour and he is certainly a narcissist as is his mother. They're both very much into labelling themselves like this and knowing famous people. My MIL indeed too gives herself over the top titles for the voluntary work and is involved in committees of various sorts (no-one else wants to do it). Pillars of the community indeed.

By not seeing such people you are indeed protecting yourself from being further abused; you are saying no more to being abused. You've been useful to her indeed as a pawn and/or a minion. These people really do have NO empathy, I cannot stress that enough.

It is certainly not your fault your mother is the ways she is
I think I know partly why my MIL is the ways she is; she was put on a pedestool by her strict Edwardian type father. That along with a nurturing mother who never told her off and also treated her like a precious wallflower gave her such delusions of grandeur. Her emotional development is I would say around the age of six, she got stuck emotionally there.

Chilledout

You are correct in one important aspect here; the whole situation is beyond repair. But that is not for a lack of you trying, its also because your parents are wholly unreasonable. Their responses towards you are typical absolutely of what such toxic parents say.

Its not sadly all that surprising that your dad turned against you here; this often happens when such weak bystanders men get caught up with women like your mother. Women like your mother cannot do relationships so they always but always need a willing enabler to help them. He is her enabler and secondary abuser here; he has happily thrown you, his now adult daughter, under the bus, to preserve his own skin and for his own want of a quiet life. He has sacrificed you on the altar of her abuse, has gone along with it and continues to do so.

It is not your fault that your parents are like this and you did not make them this way. Your parents have never been the nice kind people you perhaps still want them to be and they have been awful to you at all times of the year, let alone Christmas. Do read the Out of the FOG website and keep posting here too, you will gain further clarity in time.

My dm lay In bed most days and screamed and cried still craves pure attention. She is racist towards a close family member and has turned my father against me. I am so upset.

It's too long to go into everything but I used to visit or contact daily and clean and listen to all the criticism.

Apart from the close family member bit, that could be my mother, Chilledout. And you could be me.

It's the injustice, piled on top of the years of unfairness and constant chipping away, that rankles. You might have had some sort of relationship with your father but for your mother making it into a "her or me" battle, when it never was. And instead of standing up to her and telling her that it's not only possible to love both your wife and your daughter but actually, really quite normal, he's allowed her to set the battle lines and caved in to them. That hurts because it's a fundamental betrayal of the only half-decent relationship you could have with one of your two parents.

I'm so so sorry.

You didn't force that choice on him. She did. He could, and should, have been stronger and stood up to her but he didn't. In some ways, I understood why my Dad did what he did. He had to live with a screeching harpy 24/7. I didn't. He thought that placating her would buy him some peace. It didn't. There were times when he actively threw me under the bus to spare himself, all the while knowing what he was asking of me and pleading with me for understanding.

I too wish I could sit with you, listen to you, help you through this awful period of your life. I can only do it here, though, so as Hero and Yellowlemon, have said, post on here as much or as little as you want - there's always someone here for you. It does help. Truly.

In real life, in my darkest moments, when my emotional pain was so bad it was physical pain, I kept busy (mindlessly so, but still), put on loud cheerful music even though I felt anything but, went for long walks; and if all else failed, retreated to bed and cried. Even the release of tears - tears being forbidden when I was a child - releases endorphins and helps.

It takes time. You will get there. 💐

@AttilaTheMeerkat Thank you. I think my mum was also stuck as a little girl of around 6. And I think that's the age she wanted me to stay at too. Frilly dresses and ribbons in my hair kind of thing, forever and ever.

My father (enabler with plenty of streaks of cruelty) sometimes commented that she was like a child. Of course I never saw her has a child. She was very much an adult - domineering, ruling, terrifying etc etc

I'm finding it odd processing the fact that she maybe couldn't help the way she was. I am definitely not excusing her but she had something in her that she wasn't strong enough to overcome and has been willing to ruin friendships, destroy relationships, have no joy or creativity in her life, no chance of a career, no social life, etc etc just to feed it.

She passed a sickness on to me too. A different kind of sickness but I'm different from her (despite her telling me over and over again that I'm just like her). Because I'm not letting it ruin my life.

I’d be careful with the ‘can’t help the way she was’ thinking. Cruelty and humiliation are a choice, people with NPD know the difference between right and wrong. They are compelled to centre themselves but they can choose not to.

It’s human to feel pity and empathy when we think someone is suffering, but I would keep as much emotional energy as possible for your own repair.

Your mother chose to act like she does (as does my MIL and BIL). Clues can often be found in their family background; do you know anything about her parents and her own childhood?. She took the low road here and meted out abuse to you as a child. She made the terrible choice not to love and both parents here failed you abjectly.

She passed on fear obligation and guilt to you amongst other things but the FOG can be overcome. You have two qualities as well that your mother lacks; empathy and insight. These are indeed valuable and will continue to serve you well.

Keep posting here too.

@yellowlemon I can hazard a guess at what you’re hinting at with your DM and you. Please don’t feel compelled to share if you can’t.

@Herocomplex - I don't think what I said came out right. I definitely agree that she could have chosen not to be cruel and humiliate me but she did. Because she chose her own fragile ego over me or anyone else.

And @AttilaTheMeerkat I know nothing of her childhood because she has never spoken of it because she was brought up in a council house and not Buckingham Palace.

If and when you’re ready to talk about it, you’ll find lots of understanding and good advice here chilledout. It’s normal to feel particularly sad and vulnerable with the holidays around the corner.

My mother is also great at playing the illness card. I live abroad and every time she comes to visit (fortunately very rarely) she takes to her bed with some illness. One time she claimed drinking the tap water had made her too ill to get up (I’d refused to buy her bottled water on that occasion after heeding her demands on previous visits). She threatened not to come to my wedding too after orchestrating an argument with me before hand. She eventually did come but then spent the day telling relatives she’d not seen for ages all about her health problems and showing them photos of surgery she’d recently had. I don’t recall her telling me I looked nice or wishing me or my husband well on that day. Fortunately my parents have been separated for a long time so I have a good relationship with my father. It must be really hard to have lost your father because of your mother’s awful actions. I’m sorry.

I’ve been doing a lot of reading up on toxic parents using the resources listed on this thread. Thank you for the recommendations. It’s certainly been an eye opener, it’s like reading a textbook on my mother’s behavior.

She certainly is an ignoring mother rather than an engulfing one. I’ve barely spoken to her this year and it’s incredible how quickly she has been to drop me. She tried to hook me back in a few times sending texts about health emergencies and certain diagnoses she has recently received. Normally I would feel guilty after getting such texts and get back in touch but this time I have not acknowledged them.

Sorry, I’m posting in pieces as my phone keeps crashing.

I’m wondering if / how my mother will respond next as the birthdays of two of my children are coming up. Whilst I don’t want any contact with her it will immensely hurt if she decides to drop my children as easily as she has dropped me.

The other eye opener was the reading about scapegoat children, which I certainly am. I have a younger brother and, as mean as this sounds, I have always been the over achiever in the family and he the under achiever. He is forever getting himself into difficulty - as a child with school, other children, the police. As an adult with his landlords and employers. Yet whenever anything happens, my mother maintains it is never his fault, but rather because the entire universe has conspired against him. Yet again. Every time. Not only that, but if I dare to suggest he may have played a role in any misfortune, she gets angry and attacks me! On recent occasions I have learnt not to say a word. Yet even that was not good enough for her - the fact that I’d chosen not to defend him and buy into the inevitable sob story also brought me under attack.

chloechloe

She could well drop your kids quite easily, just as you have been.
If a person is assigned a role of scapegoat in the dysfunctional family it often follows that their children become scapegoated as well. Your family of origin has played out the usual dynamics of golden child and scapegoat seen in narcissistic family structures.

I would keep your mother well away from your kids going forward because she is really a terrible example of a grandparent to your children. You all need to stay the hell away from her; put mental distance now between you because you already have the physical distance. She was after all not a good parent to you when you were growing up and she has not changed since that time; she is still an ignoring mother.

Infact your mother would be doing you all a favour really if she did not send them anything. Your mother sending them gifts if she bothers will not be great and will be certainly not without unwritten and unspoken conditions attached to same. If gifts are sent by her to you DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE THEM. Charity shop these items if necessary but get these out of your home in any event. A good rule of thumb here is that if the relative is too toxic for YOU to deal with, its the SAME deal for your children too.

• She could well drop your kids quite easily, just as you have been. If a person is assigned a role of scapegoat in the dysfunctional family it often follows that their children become scapegoated as well.*

Or she could attempt to dig her claws into the children in a furtive attempt to inflict more pain on Chloe, insinuating that she is such a terrible parent and poor old nan is being starved of their time.

Definitely develop the safety of physical and mental distance, and reinforce this distance. It's not unusual to question yourself at times if you are doing the correct thing, and as a result the veneer of your wall might crack a little. Very common but it sounds like you have a very good grip on things.

Just remember this woman does not have the best interests of you, or your children, at heart.

I always thought my young childhood was fairly happy and these 'problems' only started when I become a troublesome teenager but I'm beginning to remember so much other weird stuff.

My first day of school and the school dinners were absolutely disgusting. But I came home and told my parents how delicious there were. So the conditioning only to please them must have started so much earlier.

Hello again everyone, and welcome to yellowlemon and chilledout11. :)

Shingles is horrible, and I've tonsillitis too now. Body dominoes...
I've been reading, and wanting to join in, but fever keeps frying my brain and it's extra difficult to be coherent at the moment.

I'm going to post the poem that had a profound effect on me now though. Hopefully it can help somebody else as well.

Wishing everyone strength and peace.

The Journey
by Mary Oliver

One day you finally knew
what you had to do, and began,
though the voices around you
kept shouting
their bad advice—
though the whole house
began to tremble
and you felt the old tug
at your ankles.
"Mend my life!"
each voice cried.
But you didn't stop.
You knew what you had to do,
though the wind pried
with its stiff fingers
at the very foundations,
though their melancholy
was terrible.
It was already late
enough, and a wild night,
and the road full of fallen
branches and stones.
But little by little,
as you left their voices behind,
the stars began to burn
through the sheets of clouds,
and there was a new voice
which you slowly
recognized as your own,
that kept you company
as you strode deeper and deeper
into the world,
determined to do
the only thing you could do—
determined to save
the only life you could save.

Your stolen eyes
Will soon forget
Every line on my face
Each moment spent
Every colour and scent
Will disappear without a trace

So why do I feel like I let you down
When I'm the only one around?

It's only when you leave
That I start to believe
That I can feel anything

Those poems are lovely and helpful. I'll be bookmarking them.

I've just read a load more of these threads and it's eye-opening. Did these parents get special handbooks on how to behave because all the behaviour is the same?

I wasn't allowed to do things with friends. Sometimes friends' families would ask me to do something nice with them (like go to a theme park or a picnic) and it would take me ages to pluck up the courage to ask my mother if it was ok to do it. And she'd do the sort of 'yes, as long as you behave yourself' and then just before the day she'd suddenly decide that I had to do something with her instead. Like go to church FFS.

Then I'd have to go through the awful humiliating ordeal of telling my friend that I couldn't spend the day with them after all.

What a fucking bitch. I was a just a little girl.

Sorry I'm posting loads and not giving much back. But this is really helping even if nobody reads it except me! I should probably just get a journal.

I should probably just get a journal.

I'd heartily recommend getting a journal yellowlemon, but I hope it needn't be either/or. :) Everyone's 'testimony' is helpful and worthwhile, imho. Means we all get to see these patterns! Keep posting!

(if/when you want to, obvs :))

Thank you @BodySaysNO

I was a just a little girl.

I hear you yellowlemon, and I'm so sorry.

This realisation knocks me for six with rage, grief, horror over and over (and over!) again.

You're getting in touch with that little girl and finally giving her the protection and understanding she always deserved. This will serve you so well in your own future. Be kind to yourself.

You are @yellowlemon there’s lots of people reading your posts and thinking if you have the courage to make a change then maybe they can too.